Kashmir The Freedom of Struggle

[vnomad]

vnomad,malaymishra123,Bull
I have given proposals on how i think the kashmir issue can be solved.
1.Pakistan keeps Northern Areas
2 India keeps jammu/Ladakh

Agreed.

3 Azad kashmir and the valley of kashmir join together.
(all parties gain and lose something from this idea)
4 Kashmir not allowed to have an army or foreign policy.
(This would stop either pak/india getting concerned with ulterior motives)
5 Let the president of india be the president of kashmir also and let the chief justice be the from pakistan.
(Or any other mechanism that gives power to both india/pak to stop them from forwarding there own aims)

What happens to this Kashmir? What guarantee does India have that Pakistan will rein in separatists once the border is unsealed? And what administrative arrangement is acceptable to Pakistan?

Joint supervision is acceptable to India. And we are willing to demilitarize the Kashmir valley(and valley only). The border will remain sealed. Once, militant activities are judged to have ceased the paramilitary groups will also be withdrawn leaving the security situation to the local police.

 

[dabong1]

Agreed.



What happens to this Kashmir? What guarantee does India have that Pakistan will rein in separatists once the border is unsealed? And what administrative arrangement is acceptable to Pakistan?

Joint supervision is acceptable to India. And we are willing to demilitarize the Kashmir valley(and valley only). The border will remain sealed. Once, militant activities are judged to have ceased the paramilitary groups will also be withdrawn leaving the security situation to the local police.

Thanyou for posting a positive reply.
If i may ask you what would be the most important conditions you would want pakistan to forfill on kashmir to ease the mistrust between the the countries.
If you could list the conditions by numerical order of most important to least.
Once we can understand each others fears then we work towards breaking the many myths pakistanis and indians have about each other.

 

[dabong1]

The Kashmiri pundit will not want to be part of a Pakistani Kashmir. What do you suggest be done about them?.

1.Pakistan keeps Northern Areas
2 India keeps jammu/Ladakh
3 Azad kashmir and the valley of kashmir join together

Nobodys talking about asking the kashmiri pandits to join pakistan kashmir.

Please try and address the Kashmiri pundit issue, as impartialy as you can. .

Let india/pakistan give kashmir to the kashmiris and they will no pundit/hindu/muslim/sikh kashmiri refugee problem/issue..[/QUOTE]

 

[Contrarian]

If i may ask you what would be the most important conditions you would want pakistan to forfill on kashmir to ease the mistrust between the the countries.
If you could list the conditions by numerical order of most important to least.

Allow me to take the first shot here:

1. Stop giving active support to Jehadi's, that they stop the terrorist activities Kashmir.
2. Stop funding separatists in India.
3. Stop giving diplomatic support to the terrorists.
4. Stop trying to counter India or block India out of international treaties or organisations.
5.Start reciprocating trade measures to India. Grant MFN status, stop trying to block SAFTA or other trade initiatives in the area. In essence start an FTA in the region.
6.Give India on an equal chance in the Pakistani market as being given to foreign countries and and being favourable to China. Chinese companies are prefered in every aspect in Pakistan.

Acc. to me these are the steps required from Pakistan's side so that India can actually and truely trust Pakistan. The first 4 being vital. If all the steps above are actually done then India would trust Pakistan, distrust would be a thing of a distant land.

What if i might ask would you think are the steps that should be taken by India to reduce her distrust in Pakistan?

 

[dabong1]

No territory will be given. If we share parts of Kashmir today, Pakistan will start creating trouble in the the downward states, Punjab, etc, as it will have more access to them, then after 3 decades, they will say that they are supporting the freedom struggle there, and the area is muslim or whatever. So no inch will be given

The proposals are not practical as in the long run, it will harm India enormously, due to the reasons mentioned above.

Ofcourse we want to keep Kashmir, it is ours.

Yeah yeah, you have only found this our now? The Pakistani leadership found it out in 1947 and they have tried 3 or 4 times. I dont see any change in the border though!

By all means, do try to do that further, you have seen what it has done to your country, if you want to continue that, Indians as being the 'enemy' will support you! The terrorists always get gunned down.

BTW, i hope you know that they keep trying the terrorists i mean, but still Kashmir is in India, and its been over a decade!

Kashmir cannot/willnot be resolved if it involves transfer or land. Any country is welcome to try.

The points you make are so weak i can not be bothered to tear them apart.

 

[Contrarian]

The points you make are so weak i can not be bothered to tear them apart.

They may be very weak mate, but i still stand by them. Cross border terrorism being the priority. Anyways you have a right to your opinion.

 

[dabong1]

Allow me to take the first shot here:

1. Stop giving active support to Jehadi's, that they stop the terrorist activities Kashmir.
2. Stop funding separatists in India.
3. Stop giving diplomatic support to the terrorists.
4. Stop trying to counter India or block India out of international treaties or organisations.
5.Start reciprocating trade measures to India. Grant MFN status, stop trying to block SAFTA or other trade initiatives in the area. In essence start an FTA in the region.
6.Give India on an equal chance in the Pakistani market as being given to foreign countries and and being favourable to China. Chinese companies are prefered in every aspect in Pakistan.

Acc. to me these are the steps required from Pakistan's side so that India can actually and truely trust Pakistan. The first 4 being vital. If all the steps above are actually done then India would trust Pakistan, distrust would be a thing of a distant land.

What if i might ask would you think are the steps that should be taken by India to reduce her distrust in Pakistan?

Thankyou for posting something we can debate about rather then the old arguments,claims and counter claims that get us no where.

1. Stop giving active support to Jehadi's, that they stop the terrorist activities Kashmir.

How do we verify that cross border movement has stopped other then take the word of either pakistan or india?
What timeframe/mechanisim would be acceptable to both countries to solve this first problem.

2. Stop funding separatists in India.

I think this would happin as a natural consequence of a peace agreement. I do not know of widespread funding of anti state movements in india by pakistan other then punjab and kashmir.I am sure you will expand my knowledge on this issue.

I think all the points you make will be resolved by takling the kashmir issue.

You asked me what would be the steps that should be taken by India to reduce her distrust in Pakistan.

1 Keep the indian army on the border for a fixed period of time in kashmir(this puts to rest the fear in india that the pakistanis are going to walk into kashmir and take over once the indians vacate the border)
During that period send the army back to barracks that is in interior kashmir and let the army numbers go back to pre 80s level.
Same goes for pakistan.

2 Free movement of political leaders of indian and pakistan kashmir to meet each other and release of all political prisoners.

3 A fixed timetable that the indians and pakistani can follow once the first demands are forfilled.This is important to pakistan as it will stop the fear of not getting anthing solved at the end of the peace process but the status quo even after they have dismantled the freedom movement in kashmir.

I would class these as the most important first few steps that the indians could take to stop pakistani apprehension.
The points you make are logical but how do we verify that fighters are not crossing over.
We can take on board the northern ireland peace process and the south african method to solve this problem.
In northern ireland the IRA put down there guns first then the british government made there move towards peace.There was a timetable that the the irish and british worked towards.

 

[sword9]

1.Pakistan keeps Northern Areas
2 India keeps jammu/Ladakh
3 Azad kashmir and the valley of kashmir join together

That means dividing J&K, no Kashmiri would want that?

Nobodys talking about asking the kashmiri pandits to join pakistan kashmir.
Let india/pakistan give kashmir to the kashmiris and they will no pundit/hindu/muslim/sikh kashmiri refugee problem/issue..

You are either innocent/ naive or unware of the past. Do you know what was done to the non-muslim residents of J&K during 1947 and 1965?

 

[Bull]

vnomad,malaymishra123,Bull
I have given proposals on how i think the kashmir issue can be solved.
1.Pakistan keeps Northern Areas
2 India keeps jammu/Ladakh
3 Azad kashmir and the valley of kashmir join together.
(all parties gain and lose something from this idea)

What does Pakistan lose as per this peace plan of yours? We definlty will lose the valley.

Pakistan keeps what it has and India will lose what it has. Thats in not the way a two way peace deal is worked out.

You keep what you have and so shall we.

4 Kashmir not allowed to have an army or foreign policy.
(This would stop either pak/india getting concerned with ulterior motives)

And what abt the self armed tribes who will desend into kashmir valley from other parts of Pakistan.

5 Let the president of india be the president of kashmir also and let the chief justice be the from pakistan.
(Or any other mechanism that gives power to both india/pak to stop them from forwarding there own aims)

Who will have control over the law and order?

I could go on with other points and then the finer points but the only problem is not one of you will budge from your stated postions.:wall:
All the propsals made are rejected and when the label of being inflexible is pointed at you ,you reject it.:wall:

In which way has Paksitan shown flexibilty?

 

[Contrarian]

Thankyou for posting something we can debate about rather then the old arguments,claims and counter claims that get us no where.

1. Stop giving active support to Jehadi's, that they stop the terrorist activities Kashmir.

How do we verify that cross border movement has stopped other then take the word of either pakistan or india?

Verification is quite simple, there are always intelligence reports about these things. GoI knows when terrorists are being trained and crossing over, but the timing of these reports is variable. Apart from that, the usual thing, bomb blasts stop, that means terrorists are dropping in numbers.

What timeframe/mechanisim would be acceptable to both countries to solve this first problem.

A period of say 1-2 years. So GoI can verify training camps have been stopped and dismantled, that infilteration is being discouraged by the Pakistani govt.

2. Stop funding separatists in India.

I think this would happin as a natural consequence of a peace agreement. I do not know of widespread funding of anti state movements in india by pakistan other then punjab and kashmir.I am sure you will expand my knowledge on this issue.

North Eastern, ULFA, etc. Though they were not initial recipients of ISI's aid, the new intelligence reports cleanly point to their involvement.

I think all the points you make will be resolved by takling the kashmir issue.

Agreed, but to resolve the Kashmir issue, you need to have some trust on both sides, thus the above steps become sort of pre-requisites of CBM's.

You asked me what would be the steps that should be taken by India to reduce her distrust in Pakistan.

1 Keep the indian army on the border for a fixed period of time in kashmir(this puts to rest the fear in india that the pakistanis are not going to walk into kashmir and take over once the indians vacate the border)
During that period send the army back to barracks that is in interior kashmir and let the army numbers go back to pre 80s level.

The numbers will be reduced when the insurgency dies down. I mean bviously the army cannot lessen their numbers in Kashmir when the insurgency is still there. This would be plain foolish. And the same situation would arise like in 1990's that gun toting men are moving freely in Kashmir.

Same goes for pakistan.

2 Free movement of political leaders of indian and pakistan kashmir to meet each other and release of all political prisoners.

Again, this can be done when the terrorist's are stopped.

3 A fixed timetable that the indians and pakistani can follow once the first demands are forfilled.This is important to pakistan as it will stop the fear of not getting anthing solved at the end of the peace process but the status quo even after they have dismantled the freedom movement in kashmir.

Like i said, 1-2 years after terrorisism has ceased.

I would class these as the most important first few steps that the indians could take to stop pakistani apprehension.
The points you make are logical but how do we verify that fighters are not crossing over.

That is easily verified by the Indian Govt.

[/QUOTE]We can take on board the northern ireland peace process and the south african method to solve this problem.
In northern ireland the IRA put down there guns first then the british government made there move towards peace.There was a timetable that the the irish and british worked towards.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, i am not familiar with either of the two peace processes.

 

[dabong1]

That means dividing J&K, no Kashmiri would want that??

Bro my family comes from kashmir and you are correct we do not want a divided Jammu Kashmir but its either that or the hostility between pakistan and india continue.

You are either innocent/ naive or unware of the past. Do you know what was done to the non-muslim residents of J&K during 1947 and 1965?

I know one thing and that is crimes ,where and are commited on all kashmiris irrelevant of their religion.
I think if you check it was pakistani based fighters that attacked the kashmiri hindus not the kashmiri based fighters.
If you also check it is the indian army that is killing kashmiri muslims not the kashmiri hindu forces.
You see the problem is india and pakistan have a problem with religion not the kashmiris.
I am giving my opinion from kashmircentric point of view with a hint of pakistaninus.
Kashmiris can live in peace with each other no problem but can the indians and pakistanis live in peace?

 

[dabong1]

Verification is quite simple, there are always intelligence reports about these things. GoI knows when terrorists are being trained and crossing over, but the timing of these reports is variable. Apart from that, the usual thing, bomb blasts stop, that means terrorists are dropping in numbers..

This is going to be a problem.
India will not take pakistans word that it has cracked down on the freedom movement and dismantled training camps.
In the same way pakistan will not accept india being judge and jury on whether cross border movement is taking place or not.
Would you accept a third party to verify if cross border movement is taking place and if the camps have been dismantled?

A period of say 1-2 years. So GoI can verify training camps have been stopped and dismantled, that infilteration is being discouraged by the Pakistani govt...

When would the 1/2 year period start from.
I think the pakistanis would want the time period from the start of peace process to be included in the timeframe of 1/2 years.

North Eastern, ULFA, etc. Though they were not initial recipients of ISI's aid, the new intelligence reports cleanly point to their involvement..

Please not the ISI again.Why is it when anything bad is going on in india its the ISI fault.
I think you overrate the ISI.

Agreed, but to resolve the Kashmir issue, you need to have some trust on both sides, thus the above steps become sort of pre-requisites of CBM's...

Yes i see where your coming from but from a pakistani point of view if the core conflict is not resolved then all other "pre-requisites" will not be carried through and will become only window dressing.

We can take on board the northern ireland peace process and the south african method to solve this problem.
In northern ireland the IRA put down there guns first then the british government made there move towards peace.There was a timetable that the the irish and british worked towards.

I am sorry, i am not familiar with either of the two peace processes.

http://www.nio.gov.uk/the-agreement

 

[dabong1]

What does Pakistan lose as per this peace plan of yours? We definlty will lose the valley.

Pakistan keeps what it has and India will lose what it has. Thats in not the way a two way peace deal is worked out.

If you carried on reading my proposals it said that pakistan would give up azad kashmir.
So pakistan would give land away.

And what abt the self armed tribes who will desend into kashmir valley from other parts of Pakistan..

So i see you did not read the bit about the indian army staying on the borders but going back to barracks from interior kashmir.

Who will have control over the law and order?..

The police force of the valley and AJK will be joined together to create the police force of kashmir.



In which way has Paksitan shown flexibilty?[/QUOTE]

It has won the gold medal in the olympics in gymnastics.

 

[sword9]

Bro my family comes from kashmir and you are correct we do not want a divided Jammu Kashmir but its either that or the hostility between pakistan and india continue.

Then what is the harm in keeping the status quo, we do not have any further territorial ambitions in J&K.

I know one thing and that is crimes ,where and are commited on all kashmiris irrelevant of their religion.

Some how the memorial plates in Baramulla, Poonch and Rajouri, have majority hindu/ sikh names and some muslim names. If you get a chance and manage to travel to Skardu, try and speak to some old timers who saw the fall of Skardu. If your witness is a truthful man he will recite the horrors perpetrate on the Sikh and hindu population.

I think if you check it was pakistani based fighters that attacked the kashmiri hindus not the kashmiri based fighters.

If you talk of 1947 and 1965 then yes you are right the culprits were the Pak backed tribles/ lashkar groups, but in 1990/ 91 it was the JKLF, which if Kashmiri. The JKLF lead the mobs that hounded the pundits out of the valley.

If you also check it is the indian army that is killing kashmiri muslims not the kashmiri hindu forces.

I served there during the worst days, so I can tell you that its not true. People die in cross-fires, or mob control situations, but nothing is deliberate, its a hazzard that puts a lot of pressure on the security forces. You will not find villages being leveled by arty fire in Kashmir or fighter jets bombing villages. But you will see hindus being dragged out of buses by jihadis and gunned down, you will see kashmiri muslim villagers helping the army after their women were taken away as sex slaves by the jihadis. Why else do you think the insurgency has been a failure since 17 years?

You see the problem is india and pakistan have a problem with religion not the kashmiris.
I am giving my opinion from kashmircentric point of view with a hint of pakistaninus.
Kashmiris can live in peace with each other no problem but can the indians and pakistanis live in peace?

It all depends on accepting what one has, and not trying to force an issue that will lead to war.

 

[dabong1]

Then what is the harm in keeping the status quo, we do not have any further territorial ambitions in J&K..

The harm in keeping the status quo is that the war will carry on.
What is the harm in having UN elections?

Some how the memorial plates in Baramulla, Poonch and Rajouri, have majority hindu/ sikh names and some muslim names. If you get a chance and manage to travel to Skardu, try and speak to some old timers who saw the fall of Skardu. If your witness is a truthful man he will recite the horrors perpetrate on the Sikh and hindu population...

I could make a long list of crimes commited by hindus/sikhs on muslims but what is the point.We know what happened in the past and covering the same old ground over and over again is not going to solve the problem.

If you talk of 1947 and 1965 then yes you are right the culprits were the Pak backed tribles/ lashkar groups, but in 1990/ 91 it was the JKLF, which if Kashmiri. The JKLF lead the mobs that hounded the pundits out of the valley. ...

Allegations can be levelled against pakistani based freedonm fighters as being anti hindu but trying to label the JKLF as being anti hindu/pundit does not make sense when you look at the membership of JKLF which includes hindus and sikhs.

I served there during the worst days, so I can tell you that its not true. People die in cross-fires, or mob control situations, but nothing is deliberate, its a hazzard that puts a lot of pressure on the security forces. You will not find villages being leveled by arty fire in Kashmir or fighter jets bombing villages. But you will see hindus being dragged out of buses by jihadis and gunned down, you will see kashmiri muslim villagers helping the army after their women were taken away as sex slaves by the jihadis. Why else do you think the insurgency has been a failure since 17 years?...

As i said before i can start telling you all sorts of stories of about what hindu/sikhs are doing to muslims in kashmir and other parts of india and use emotive phrase as "sex slaves " "muslim being dragged out of buses by hindus and gunned down".
What is your contribution towards solving the problem other then the same old stories of muslims killing hindus ,indian line of LOC into IB which then will get the response by pakistan that india implement UN resolutions in kashmir and then we are back to square one.

It all depends on accepting what one has, and not trying to force an issue that will lead to war.

Injustice and denial of freedom always leads to war.