Who send the military first?
Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective
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PradoTLC
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VkdIndian
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Only people who talk truth are @PradoTLC and @Huffal. As per these most pious and pure people on earth, all other Pakistanis who say that Pakistan lost in Kargil are liars and traitors.
@Huffal has taken the mantle of distributing the certificate of patriotism in Pakistan while sitting in UK. He has declared all these people Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi liars.
“Let’s see what does Lt Gen Shahid Aziz has to say about Kargil-
“Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘misadventure’ was a four-man show the details of which were hidden from the rest of the military commanders initially”.
“It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives.”
After he was promoted as chief of general staff, he says that in 2004 he ordered a small study to inquire into what miscalculations had led to such a huge loss of men and money. He also asked each battalion concerned for details.
But the reaction was swift.
An angry Gen Musharraf called him and asked what the objectives of the study were. “I told him it would provide a professional understanding of our mistakes and losses but Gen Musharraf insisted that this was not the time for such a study and ordered that it be stopped.
Few questions-
1. Is there any nation on earth that hides details of its victory? Pakistan seems to do that by not allowing any internal analysis of Kargil fiasco.
2. A Lt Gen has clearly accepted in the excerpts above - A failure, no clarity on numbers of soldiers lost?
3. No self analysis allowed by Musharraf obviously to hide the facts from coming out.
Kargil was a military, economic and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan.
Pakistan is a nation that has been surviving on propaganda. They just realised that time has come to try and change the outcome of Kargil. This thread is just a start of that propaganda.
Luckily these are not times like 1965 when they created a 180 degree opposite picture and have brought up an entire generation on that.
nation.com.pk
In these times there is enough clarity from within and outside Pakistan regarding Kargil.
Propaganda wouldn’t change the outcome of Kargil conflict.
Pakistan lost at Kargil, big time. That’s the fact and not gonna change by creating threads on a forum.
@Huffal has taken the mantle of distributing the certificate of patriotism in Pakistan while sitting in UK. He has declared all these people Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi liars.
“Let’s see what does Lt Gen Shahid Aziz has to say about Kargil-
Kargil adventure was four-man show: general
ISLAMABAD, Jan 28: The men who witnessed the Kargil fiasco continue to spill the beans. Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘mis
www.dawn.com
“Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘misadventure’ was a four-man show the details of which were hidden from the rest of the military commanders initially”.
“It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives.”
After he was promoted as chief of general staff, he says that in 2004 he ordered a small study to inquire into what miscalculations had led to such a huge loss of men and money. He also asked each battalion concerned for details.
But the reaction was swift.
An angry Gen Musharraf called him and asked what the objectives of the study were. “I told him it would provide a professional understanding of our mistakes and losses but Gen Musharraf insisted that this was not the time for such a study and ordered that it be stopped.
Few questions-
1. Is there any nation on earth that hides details of its victory? Pakistan seems to do that by not allowing any internal analysis of Kargil fiasco.
2. A Lt Gen has clearly accepted in the excerpts above - A failure, no clarity on numbers of soldiers lost?
3. No self analysis allowed by Musharraf obviously to hide the facts from coming out.
Kargil was a military, economic and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan.
It is not about what you or the world thinks.
Pakistan is a nation that has been surviving on propaganda. They just realised that time has come to try and change the outcome of Kargil. This thread is just a start of that propaganda.
Luckily these are not times like 1965 when they created a 180 degree opposite picture and have brought up an entire generation on that.
1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’
nation.com.pk
Propaganda wouldn’t change the outcome of Kargil conflict.
Pakistan lost at Kargil, big time. That’s the fact and not gonna change by creating threads on a forum.
Last edited:
Tornado23
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Only people who talk truth are @PradoTLC and @Huffal. As per these most pious and pure people on earth, all other Pakistanis who say that Pakistan lost in Kargil are liars and traitors.
@Huffal has taken the mantle of distributing the certificate of patriotism in Pakistan while sitting in UK. He has declared all these people Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi liars.
“Let’s see what does Lt Gen Shahid Aziz has to say about Kargil-
Kargil adventure was four-man show: general
ISLAMABAD, Jan 28: The men who witnessed the Kargil fiasco continue to spill the beans. Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘miswww.dawn.com
“Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘misadventure’ was a four-man show the details of which were hidden from the rest of the military commanders initially”.
“It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives.”
After he was promoted as chief of general staff, he says that in 2004 he ordered a small study to inquire into what miscalculations had led to such a huge loss of men and money. He also asked each battalion concerned for details.
But the reaction was swift.
An angry Gen Musharraf called him and asked what the objectives of the study were. “I told him it would provide a professional understanding of our mistakes and losses but Gen Musharraf insisted that this was not the time for such a study and ordered that it be stopped.
Few questions-
1. Is there any nation on earth that hides details of its victory? Pakistan seems to do that by not allowing any internal analysis of Kargil fiasco.
2. A Lt Gen has clearly accepted in the excerpts above - A failure, no clarity on numbers of soldiers lost?
3. No self analysis allowed by Musharraf obviously to hide the facts from coming out.
Kargil was a military, economic and diplomatic disasters for Pakistan.
It is not about what you or the world thinks.
Pakistan is a nation that has been surviving on propaganda. They just realised that time has come to try and change the outcome of Kargil. This thread is just a start of that propaganda.
Luckily these are not times like 1965 when they created a 180 degree opposite picture and have brought up an entire generation on that.
In these times there is enough clarity from within and outside Pakistan regarding Kargil.1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’
Some of these jokers are claiming that distinguished personalities like Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi are also telling lies.
Only people who talk truth are @PradoTLC and @Huffal. As per these most pious and pure people on earth, all other Pakistanis who say that Pakistan lost in Kargil are liars and traitors.
@Huffal has taken the mantle of distributing the certificate of patriotism in Pakistan while sitting in UK. He has declared all these people Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi liars.
“Let’s see what does Lt Gen Shahid Aziz has to say about Kargil-
Kargil adventure was four-man show: general
ISLAMABAD, Jan 28: The men who witnessed the Kargil fiasco continue to spill the beans. Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘miswww.dawn.com
“Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, a former chief of general staff of Pakistan Army who has till now kept his peace about what he witnessed in the summer of ’99, says the ‘misadventure’ was a four-man show the details of which were hidden from the rest of the military commanders initially”.
“It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives.”
After he was promoted as chief of general staff, he says that in 2004 he ordered a small study to inquire into what miscalculations had led to such a huge loss of men and money. He also asked each battalion concerned for details.
But the reaction was swift.
An angry Gen Musharraf called him and asked what the objectives of the study were. “I told him it would provide a professional understanding of our mistakes and losses but Gen Musharraf insisted that this was not the time for such a study and ordered that it be stopped.
Few questions-
1. Is there any nation on earth that hides details of its victory? Pakistan seems to do that by not allowing any internal analysis of Kargil fiasco.
2. A Lt Gen has clearly accepted in the excerpts above - A failure, no clarity on numbers of soldiers lost?
3. No self analysis allowed by Musharraf obviously to hide the facts from coming out.
Kargil was a military, economic and diplomatic disasters for Pakistan.
It is not about what you or the world thinks.
Pakistan is a nation that has been surviving on propaganda. They just realised that time has come to try and change the outcome of Kargil. This thread is just a start of that propaganda.
Luckily these are not times like 1965 when they created a 180 degree opposite picture and have brought up an entire generation on that.
In these times there is enough clarity from within and outside Pakistan regarding Kargil.1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’
Some of these jokers are claiming that distinguished personalities like Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi are also telling lies.
Haha hahaha even in your own link it still doesn't say Pakistan lost militarily.
]“It was a failure because [/B]we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation
He said its a failure because of the lack of planning. The fact how so few knew about it, and the fact it was a covert op that no one should know about.
He said nothing about the military performance during the war or saying the actual war was a failure.
Nit picking like a hypocrite I see. Nice.
'Pakistani occupation of point 5353 means Operation Vijay's core objective in Drass, securing the highway, in effect failed.'
And that's 5353 alone
'Few questions-
1. Is there any nation on earth that hides details of its victory? Pakistan seems to do that by not allowing any internal analysis of Kargil fiasco.
2. A Lt Gen has clearly accepted in the excerpts above - A failure, no clarity on numbers of soldiers lost?
3. No self analysis allowed by Musharraf obviously to hide the facts from coming out.'
Oh you are asking questions now? Ok let me answer like you then.
LOOK AT THESE CAUSALTIES BROOOOO
Disclosing Kargil casualties would affect morale of troops: CIC
The disclosure of information related to casualties suffered by army during Kargil war and number of terrorists killed cannot be made public, Central Information Commission has held in an order 14 years after the war.
zeenews.india.com
YOU GOT WIPED OUT BROOO
LOOK AT THIS LINK WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTIONS BRO LOOK AT THIS WHATABOUTISM
Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
www.ndtv.com
'yOuR lEgS mUsT bE sHaKiNg [emoji12][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]'
I cringed so hard when you wrote that lul
who send the military first? as per article, you shared Indians were already there drugged in waiting for Pakistanis
VkdIndian
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Kargil was a failure but not a military failure
First thing First - FINALLY YOU HAVE ACCEPTED THAT IT WAS A FAILURE.
A funny kind of failure it was. Pakistan failed but also didn’t fail.
So PDF propaganda mongerers have come up with calling a failure that was not a failure.
Please sell this failure in Pakistan. That’s a good market for this new kind of failure.
You never cringed and flinched while posting scores of lies?
While calling scores of Pakistani prominent citizens a liar?
The making of the Kargil disaster
Excerpts from Nasim Zehra's book, 'From Kargil To The Coup: Events That Shook Pakistan'.
www.dawn.com
While you are claiming a military victory this is what happened in Pakistan military and government circles -
“The consensus among senior navy and air force officers was that opening of new fronts by India could not be ruled out. They asked why they had not been consulted earlier since any defence plan in case of Indian retaliation had to be an integrated armed forces defense plan. Criticism kept piling up. The deputy air chief also wondered, “After all, what will we achieve from all this?” CGS Aziz’s response was that, by applying pressure on the main supply artery NH1, India would be forced to the negotiating table on Kashmir.
@Huffal can you show me the negotiating table? Can’t really spot it.
Please also note a resounding endorsement of Musharraf’s Kargil plan by the PAF and PN.
Has anyone in the entire world heard a winning defence force squabbling like this over an operation?
Such discussions happen only when an operation has gone down the drain.
Kargil was a watershed moment in the Pakistan’s history.
Complete loss of face on all fronts.
Tornado23
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Kargil was a failure but not a military failure [emoji848][emoji848][emoji848][emoji1787]
First thing First - FINALLY YOU HAVE ACCEPTED THAT IT WAS A FAILURE.
A funny kind of failure it was. Pakistan failed but also didn’t fail.
So PDF propaganda mongerers have come up with calling a failure that was not a failure.
Please sell this failure in Pakistan. That’s a good market for this new kind of failure.
You never cringed and flinched while posting scores of lies?
While calling scores of Pakistani prominent citizens a liar?
The making of the Kargil disaster
Excerpts from Nasim Zehra's book, 'From Kargil To The Coup: Events That Shook Pakistan'.www.dawn.com
While you are claiming a military victory this is what happened in Pakistan military and government circles -
“The consensus among senior navy and air force officers was that opening of new fronts by India could not be ruled out. They asked why they had not been consulted earlier since any defence plan in case of Indian retaliation had to be an integrated armed forces defense plan. Criticism kept piling up. The deputy air chief also wondered, “After all, what will we achieve from all this?” CGS Aziz’s response was that, by applying pressure on the main supply artery NH1, India would be forced to the negotiating table on Kashmir.
@Huffal can you show me the negotiating table? Can’t really spot it.
Please also note a resounding endorsement of Musharraf’s Kargil plan by the PAF and PN.
Has anyone in the entire world heard a winning defence force squabbling like this over an operation?
Such discussions happen only when an operation has gone down the drain.
Kargil was a watershed moment in the Pakistan’s history.
Complete loss of face on all fronts.
Kargil was a failure but not a military failure [emoji848][emoji848][emoji848][emoji1787]
First thing First - FINALLY YOU HAVE ACCEPTED THAT IT WAS A FAILURE.
A funny kind of failure it was. Pakistan failed but also didn’t fail.
So PDF propaganda mongerers have come up with calling a failure that was not a failure.
Please sell this failure in Pakistan. That’s a good market for this new kind of failure.
You never cringed and flinched while posting scores of lies?
While calling scores of Pakistani prominent citizens a liar?
The making of the Kargil disaster
Excerpts from Nasim Zehra's book, 'From Kargil To The Coup: Events That Shook Pakistan'.www.dawn.com
While you are claiming a military victory this is what happened in Pakistan military and government circles -
“The consensus among senior navy and air force officers was that opening of new fronts by India could not be ruled out. They asked why they had not been consulted earlier since any defence plan in case of Indian retaliation had to be an integrated armed forces defense plan. Criticism kept piling up. The deputy air chief also wondered, “After all, what will we achieve from all this?” CGS Aziz’s response was that, by applying pressure on the main supply artery NH1, India would be forced to the negotiating table on Kashmir.
@Huffal can you show me the negotiating table? Can’t really spot it.
Please also note a resounding endorsement of Musharraf’s Kargil plan by the PAF and PN.
Has anyone in the entire world heard a winning defence force squabbling like this over an operation?
Such discussions happen only when an operation has gone down the drain.
Kargil was a watershed moment in the Pakistan’s history.
Complete loss of face on all fronts.
Jeez Louise you really do bring the national iq of India down from 82 to below 70
Tell you what. Do your nation a favour. Stay off the Internet. You clearly cannot comprehend simple English as is evident by your posts. You cannot comprehend the fact that India faced the same failures and even more so on the battlefield.
Where we faced failures in planning, you faced failures in Intel, planning and execution.
You are a hypocrite that knows nothing but spewing out propaganda, screeching about irrelevant stuff. Not a single one of those generals have said the war was a failure. The actual war...
Also the negotiating table was when both sides agreed to pull back leaving the border to 71 state. But that soon messed up when cmdr aul occupied 5240, allowing us to reoccupy the other peaks Incl 5353.
You claim to be busting propaganda. How? You haven't busted anything. You couldn't even answer a simple question I gave you.
Typical.
Well. I guess we can leave it at this.
We hold 4 peaks.
Your op vijay failed.
Gg
VkdIndian
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What war are they talking about?
Tomorrow you will start talking about some tactical win and start claiming a win in Kargil. There was only one war as far as the sane world knows. There might be some fictional war from your side.
It is the Kargil conflict in entirety that matters to everyone.
There were lessons for India too-
India accepted that there was an intelligence failure.
IAF quickly changed its tactics after loosing ac.
IAF adapted quickly to carry out bombings at such high altitude.
India set up a commision to analyse all aspects.
Pakistan had a little more lessons :-
1. How not to get over ambitious.
2. Keep sister services in loop while making an adventure like this.
3. Keep civilian government in loop to control diplomatic fallout.
4. Plan for all possible contingencies. Don’t presume that India wouldn’t open up the entire front and also that international opinion would be on your side. Even China ditched you.
5. Don’t be afraid to accept the defeat and learn your lessons. Pakistan had tried same trick in 1965 but had failed badly that time too.
6. Last but not the least - Listen to dissenting voices. The number of senior officers coming out now and blaming Musharraf makes it clear that he and his cabal of 4 generals became completely blind in excitement.
Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail has also said exactly the same.
Whether any FM accepts or not, the fact remains that Kargil was a grave mistake by Pakistan and it is even worse to see few blind bats trying to change the history.
Tornado23
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The war/conflict we are talking about is kargil.
The performance of our troops, the NLI and regulars was better than that of yours. Even the US acknowledged this fact. The links you linked and the others have linked pointed to the fact that India did not win militarily. Perhaps diplomatically. But not militarily.
Majority of our losses came when we agreed to pull back. That's when your military opened fire on our troops pulling back. That's where most of the losses came from
The IAF high alt bombing was done with Israelis assistance. Without them no such bombing would've taken place. With all this in mind, you still weren't able to retake all the peaks occupied by us.
We hold 4 of them today.
5353
Aftab 1
Saddle ridge
Bunker ridge
How. Was. Op. Vijay. A. Success...?
Answer? It wasn't.
What was op vijay?
To retake all the peaks and posts occupied by Pakistan and to expel pakistani military and irregular military presence from the area.
None of that was achieved.
India was only able to take tiger hill and barely take tololing. Then the ceasefire came into affect. And guess what? You fired on our troops whilst they were pulling back. You broke the ceasefire. You occupied point 5240. Tried taking 5353 but couldn't. So we took it. We took aftab 1, bunker ridge, saddle ridge, shangruti and dhalunag of which we hold, 5353, aftab 1, bunker ridge and saddle ridge today.
Considering how you were unable to retake the peaks during the peak time of the war makes me wonder. How do you intend to take them later on when the ceasefire was announced. Turns out you tried a bitch tactic. Surprise attack when we were both pulling back. Didn't work in the end like you intended.
All this coupled with the casualties your nation refuses to let out... How was it a win for the Indian military at all?
Then again. Here I am. What am I expecting from you, who destroyed his own credibility by not being able to answer the question given to him and thinks he is destroying propaganda, when in reality he is being laughed at for his stupidity and cringe.
Do this forum a favour. Piss off to bharat rashak. To your echo chamber. We don't want you here. Annoyance.
VkdIndian
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And let you spread lies and propaganda about Kargil? Offer not accepted.
The prominent personalities from Pakistan I have quoted have said enough about military aspects too. There are enough of them accepting that number of deaths are also not known. When I quoted excerpts from their interviews you were no where to be seen. And now you decide to refute by writing a vague story about military vs diplomacy. Keep that English in your pocket. No one believes you.
Moreover, why hesitancy to let Kargil fiasco be investigated, if militarily it was such a great success? That would have been clearly established through a formal enquiry.
Such enquires are avoided only when there are too many skeletons likely to be found out.
Foot soldiers and officers of NLI were used like a cannon fodder by way of poor planning and shoving them into an impossible situation.
I do salute them for fighting bravely for a grateful nation but an ungrateful military leadership. It was sad to see that they were recognised and their names added only in 2010. Can there be a bigger dishonourable act? I guess not.
Writing long imaginary stories wouldn’t change any facts.
Quoting selectively to buttress your story has its own limits.
Kargil War
Read about the territory India had regained when Musharraf begged Nawaz to go to US and save his sorry a**. And here you are claiming that India had regained only two peaks. You are a pathetic liar after all.
With Pakistan occupying the heights the Indian troops displayed exemplary courage to attack those posts from below. Ever heard of attack against an enemy entrenched on high ground? And here you are talking of courage?
I am right here and would keep busting your pathetic propaganda filled a**.
Try as hard as you want - Kargil was a military and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan.
Tornado23
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The amount of hypocrisy in your comment in amazing. I have never seen such a bigger hypocrite than youAnd let you spread lies and propaganda about Kargil? Offer not accepted.
The prominent personalities from Pakistan I have quoted have said enough about military aspects too. There are enough of them accepting that number of deaths are also not known. When I quoted excerpts from their interviews you were no where to be seen. And now you decide to refute by writing a vague story about military vs diplomacy. Keep that English in your pocket. No one believes you.
Moreover, why hesitancy to let Kargil fiasco be investigated, if militarily it was such a great success? That would have been clearly established through a formal enquiry.
Such enquires are avoided only when there are too many skeletons likely to be found out.
Foot soldiers and officers of NLI were used like a cannon fodder by way of poor planning and shoving them into an impossible situation.
I do salute them for fighting bravely for a grateful nation but an ungrateful military leadership. It was sad to see that they were recognised and their names added only in 2010. Can there be a bigger dishonourable act? I guess not.
Writing long imaginary stories wouldn’t change any facts.
Quoting selectively to buttress your story has its own limits.
Kargil War
www.cs.mcgill.ca
Read about the territory India had regained when Musharraf begged Nawaz to go to US and save his sorry a**. And here you are claiming that India had regained only two peaks. You are a pathetic liar after all.
With Pakistan occupying the heights the Indian troops displayed exemplary courage to attack those posts from below. Ever heard of attack against an enemy entrenched on high ground? And here you are talking of courage?
I am right here and would keep busting your pathetic propaganda filled a**.
Try as hard as you want - Kargil was a military and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan.
You were nowhere yourself when I asked you the question displayed the facts and gave you the excerpts from praveen swahmy and RK Anand. And you think you can pull some sort of rank? Hahaha. What a knob.
Keep coping m8. Still won't change the fact of how poor your military performed in that war. I respect the soldiers on your side the fought and died. Especially those than weren't even made public.
Also of course you will refuse my offer. How else will get your IT cell job back?
But if you gonna spew propaganda do it properly without making yourself look like an *** Lel
Also Wikipedia links [emoji23][emoji23]
Tornado23
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@waz @Foxtrot Alpha
Can you 'remove' this vkdindian guy? Man's spewing propaganda and being a douche.
Can you 'remove' this vkdindian guy? Man's spewing propaganda and being a douche.
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