Jackdaws
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Read some history.
Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective
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Tornado23
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You really no nothing about the short lived ceasefire and both sides pulling back?
PradoTLC
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Read and weep endians….
“British military experts say that while India’s armed forces would enjoy a numerical superiority if a war broke out, Pakistan’s army is of higher quality.”
William Hopkinson, of the London-based Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIIA).
“The quality of Pakistani troops is on average better than of India”
“British military experts say that while India’s armed forces would enjoy a numerical superiority if a war broke out, Pakistan’s army is of higher quality.”
William Hopkinson, of the London-based Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIIA).
“The quality of Pakistani troops is on average better than of India”
Pakistan army has higher quality: UK experts
LONDON, May 22: As the crisis over Kashmir deepens, British military experts say that while India’s armed forces...
www.dawn.com
Jackdaws
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Nope. Enlighten me. When did India ever agree to pullback?
PradoTLC
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Judging by what I have seen indians have that issue.
More importantly they seem to lack ability to critically analyze and draw correct assessments. All I have seen you people is vomit Indian government sponsored narrative.
then again Indian education is of low quality with emphasis on vomiting what’s given to them.
Jackdaws
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Ok. Now who tried to grab Siachen first?
Tornado23
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'' Point 5353, like the features around it, had been occupied by Pakistani troops at the start of the Kargil war. Indian soldiers, however, were nowhere near its summit when hostilities were pronounced to have ended. All that had been achieved was the occupation of two secondary positions on the Marpo La ridge line, Charlie 6 and Charlie 7. Pakistani troops also remained on point 5240, some 1200 metres as the crow flies from point 5353. 56 Brigade Commander Amar Aul, in charge of the operations to secure point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.
Com. Aul's tactics, evidently under political pressure to bring about as quick an end to hostilities as possible, were designed to secure a subsequent territorial exchange. In mid-August, 1999, his efforts to bring about a deal bore fruit. Extended negotiations between the Brigadier and a Pakistani interlocutor, who called himself Colonel Saqlain, led to both sides committing themselves to leave points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied.
Both Indian and Pakistani troops were now pulled back to their pre-Kargil position, leaving an arial distance of about a kilometre between the armies along most of the Marpo La ridge. The deal wasn't ideal, for point 5353 was of enormously more strategic importance to India than either 4251 or 4875 were for Pakistan, but it was better than nothing.
Towards the end of October, things began to go horribly wrong. Commander Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take point 5240 and the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles to occupy 5353, choosing to violate the August agreement rather than risk the prospect that Pakistan might reoccupy these positions again. While the 16 Grenadiers attack proceeded as planned, despite bad weather, the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles, for reasons which are still not clear, never made their way up 5353. When Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 52 40, they promptly launched a counter assault on 5353. Seven days later, in early November, the Grenadiers unit on 5240 watched Pakistan take up positions on the more important peak.
Pakistan moved rapidly to consolidate its position on 5353. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak from Benazir Post, Pakistan's most important permanent position in the area. In the meanwhile, Commander Aul considered plans to retake the peak. He didn't have much choice. India's positions on 5240 were under threat, along with positions of the 2 Naga in Mushkoh, the 2 Grenadiers in Drass, and the 8 Sikh in Bhimbet. Offensives were discussed in January an d February this year, and again in May and August, but had to be abandoned each time because of the risks involved.''
Pakistan still occupies key Drass point
Praveen Swami DRASS, Aug. 10 PAKISTAN soldiers perched at peak 5,353 metres, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking the
Is that even a question? Who bought the equipment and went there first? Pakistanis didn’t have the equipment at that time
Jackdaws
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Uh. This isn't during the Kargil War. This a month and a half after. No?'' Point 5353, like the features around it, had been occupied by Pakistani troops at the start of the Kargil war. Indian soldiers, however, were nowhere near its summit when hostilities were pronounced to have ended. All that had been achieved was the occupation of two secondary positions on the Marpo La ridge line, Charlie 6 and Charlie 7. Pakistani troops also remained on point 5240, some 1200 metres as the crow flies from point 5353. 56 Brigade Commander Amar Aul, in charge of the operations to secure point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.
Com. Aul's tactics, evidently under political pressure to bring about as quick an end to hostilities as possible, were designed to secure a subsequent territorial exchange. In mid-August, 1999, his efforts to bring about a deal bore fruit. Extended negotiations between the Brigadier and a Pakistani interlocutor, who called himself Colonel Saqlain, led to both sides committing themselves to leave points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied.
Both Indian and Pakistani troops were now pulled back to their pre-Kargil position, leaving an arial distance of about a kilometre between the armies along most of the Marpo La ridge. The deal wasn't ideal, for point 5353 was of enormously more strategic importance to India than either 4251 or 4875 were for Pakistan, but it was better than nothing.
Towards the end of October, things began to go horribly wrong. Commander Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take point 5240 and the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles to occupy 5353, choosing to violate the August agreement rather than risk the prospect that Pakistan might reoccupy these positions again. While the 16 Grenadiers attack proceeded as planned, despite bad weather, the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles, for reasons which are still not clear, never made their way up 5353. When Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 52 40, they promptly launched a counter assault on 5353. Seven days later, in early November, the Grenadiers unit on 5240 watched Pakistan take up positions on the more important peak.
Pakistan moved rapidly to consolidate its position on 5353. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak from Benazir Post, Pakistan's most important permanent position in the area. In the meanwhile, Commander Aul considered plans to retake the peak. He didn't have much choice. India's positions on 5240 were under threat, along with positions of the 2 Naga in Mushkoh, the 2 Grenadiers in Drass, and the 8 Sikh in Bhimbet. Offensives were discussed in January an d February this year, and again in May and August, but had to be abandoned each time because of the risks involved.''
Pakistan still occupies key Drass point
Praveen Swami DRASS, Aug. 10 PAKISTAN soldiers perched at peak 5,353 metres, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking thewww.thehindubusinessline.com
Bull's secret trek was spotted by Pakistan. On patrol, some Pakistani soldiers found a crumpled packet of "Gold Flake" cigarettes—an Indian brand—and their suspicions were raised, according to a senior Pakistani government official. Soon, the Indian expedition on Siachen was shadowed by the Pakistanis. At army headquarters in Rawalpindi, Pakistani generals decided they had better stake a claim to Siachen before India did. Islamabad then committed an intelligence blunder, according to a now retired Pakistani army colonel. "They ordered Arctic-weather gear from a London outfitters who also supplied the Indians," says the colonel. "Once the Indians got wind of it, they ordered 300 outfits—twice as many as we had—and rushed their men up to Siachen." When the Pakistanis hiked up to the glacier in 1984, they found that a 300-man Indian battalion was already there, dug into the highest mountaintops. The Indians control two of Siachen's three passes, and two-thirds of the glacier. Says Lieut. Colonel Abid Nadeem, Pakistani commander at Gyong, which at 4,266 m is the highest battalion headquarters in the world: "The Indians were climbing heights. And we were climbing heights. Then the shooting started. And so the war began."
Full article in Time magazine -
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You answered it yourselfUh. This isn't during the Kargil War. This a month and a half after. No?
Bull's secret trek was spotted by Pakistan. On patrol, some Pakistani soldiers found a crumpled packet of "Gold Flake" cigarettes—an Indian brand—and their suspicions were raised, according to a senior Pakistani government official. Soon, the Indian expedition on Siachen was shadowed by the Pakistanis. At army headquarters in Rawalpindi, Pakistani generals decided they had better stake a claim to Siachen before India did. Islamabad then committed an intelligence blunder, according to a now retired Pakistani army colonel. "They ordered Arctic-weather gear from a London outfitters who also supplied the Indians," says the colonel. "Once the Indians got wind of it, they ordered 300 outfits—twice as many as we had—and rushed their men up to Siachen." When the Pakistanis hiked up to the glacier in 1984, they found that a 300-man Indian battalion was already there, dug into the highest mountaintops. The Indians control two of Siachen's three passes, and two-thirds of the glacier. Says Lieut. Colonel Abid Nadeem, Pakistani commander at Gyong, which at 4,266 m is the highest battalion headquarters in the world: "The Indians were climbing heights. And we were climbing heights. Then the shooting started. And so the war began."
Full article in Time magazine -
“ Bull's secret trek was spotted by Pakistan. On patrol, some Pakistani soldiers found a crumpled packet of "Gold Flake" cigarettes—an Indian brand—and their suspicions were raised”
Tornado23
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No, this was right at the very end of Kargil.Uh. This isn't during the Kargil War. This a month and a half after. No?
Bull's secret trek was spotted by Pakistan. On patrol, some Pakistani soldiers found a crumpled packet of "Gold Flake" cigarettes—an Indian brand—and their suspicions were raised, according to a senior Pakistani government official. Soon, the Indian expedition on Siachen was shadowed by the Pakistanis. At army headquarters in Rawalpindi, Pakistani generals decided they had better stake a claim to Siachen before India did. Islamabad then committed an intelligence blunder, according to a now retired Pakistani army colonel. "They ordered Arctic-weather gear from a London outfitters who also supplied the Indians," says the colonel. "Once the Indians got wind of it, they ordered 300 outfits—twice as many as we had—and rushed their men up to Siachen." When the Pakistanis hiked up to the glacier in 1984, they found that a 300-man Indian battalion was already there, dug into the highest mountaintops. The Indians control two of Siachen's three passes, and two-thirds of the glacier. Says Lieut. Colonel Abid Nadeem, Pakistani commander at Gyong, which at 4,266 m is the highest battalion headquarters in the world: "The Indians were climbing heights. And we were climbing heights. Then the shooting started. And so the war began."
Full article in Time magazine -
VkdIndian
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One nation wins every war post facto. Through propaganda.
A nation has been brought up on lies of victories.
Just one example.
nation.com.pk
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’ against India in the 1965 War. This year we celebrated the golden jubilee of that ‘victory’. Air force planes dominated the capital’s skies for a whole week as pilots rehearsed for the Defence Day fly-past, setting off car alarms. Wartime songs ruled the airwaves. Electronic and social media was abuzz with stories of the heroic sacrifices rendered by the members of the armed forces for the defense of the country and how the Indians were taught a befitting lesson for their aggression upon the motherland. Vows were made to rekindle the ‘spirit of 1965’, as the country faces old and new internal and external threats.
Over the past half a century, this narrative has been consistently churned out in official documents, publications, speeches and broadcasts and memorized by millions of schoolchildren across the country who’ve studied the official curricula, so much so that it has become a part and parcel of popular imagination and ‘national folklore’. For most Pakistanis, it is difficult to imagine anything different transpiring between India and Pakistan in the fateful year of 1965. In fact, any alternate narrative is taken as an attempt to undermine Pakistan’s ‘justified claim’ to victory, and worse, as an attempt to endorse enemy India’s narrative which attributes victory to India.
With more than four fifth of Pakistan’s population being less than fifty years of age, most of today’s Pakistanis weren’t even born in 1965. Their knowledge of the war is almost entirely based on the distorted history taught in the official school curriculum or the propaganda narrative churned out by the military every year on the Defence Day.
The myth of ‘victory’ was created after the war had ended, in order to counter Indian claims of victory on the one hand and to shield the Ayub regime and the army from criticism on the other. Pakistan’s generals might not have won the war on the battlefield, but they managed to win it in the people’s minds. It was a propaganda victory any army would envy.
It makes sense for rival official propaganda machines on both sides to make tall claims of victory during and right after the war. However, for Pakistan’s security establishment to successfully and convincingly paddle this myth even after five decades points out towards the effectiveness of its propaganda and public relations apparatus which sustains an overall positive image of the military in the polity at any cost. This positive image is then cashed for expanding the military’s political power and shielding itself from legitimate criticism and accountability.
That is why it is important to continue churning and reinforcing the official myth of victory. And that is also the reason why it is important to celebrate this myth every year.
Same has started happening for Kargil too.
Luckily these are different times. While a different narrative may be created within Pakistan, that can’t be done internationally.
Even domestically there are scores of sane voices.
“Kargil war was a total disaster: Majeed Malik
Islamabad
Former federal minister Lt-Gen (r) Abdul Majeed Malik, who is an eyewitness to major happenings that took place during the tenure of the second Nawaz Sharif government, says the Kargil operation of Pervez Musharraf was badly conceived, faultily executed and totally unneeded.
“Musharraf’s assertion that the then government turned a won war into a political defeat is erroneous and misplaced. Rather it saved the army and Pakistan from further embarrassment, and this was a major achievement,” Majeed Malik, who was a key minister in the Nawaz Sharif cabinet, told The News.
The only element of pride in the Kargil war, he said, was that the junior officers and soldiers played a heroic role, which has no parallel in the world history. The whole nation lauds their bravery and courage.”.
@PradoTLC bravery of foot soldiers is highly appreciated. It is not the front line soldiers that failed your nation but the senior leadership by planning a kamikaze mission with shit planning and foresight.
A nation has been brought up on lies of victories.
Just one example.
1965: How Pakistan won the war of propaganda
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’
nation.com.pk
For the past five decades, Pakistan has officially celebrated September 6 as ‘Defence Day’ in remembrance of its historic ‘victory’ against India in the 1965 War. This year we celebrated the golden jubilee of that ‘victory’. Air force planes dominated the capital’s skies for a whole week as pilots rehearsed for the Defence Day fly-past, setting off car alarms. Wartime songs ruled the airwaves. Electronic and social media was abuzz with stories of the heroic sacrifices rendered by the members of the armed forces for the defense of the country and how the Indians were taught a befitting lesson for their aggression upon the motherland. Vows were made to rekindle the ‘spirit of 1965’, as the country faces old and new internal and external threats.
Over the past half a century, this narrative has been consistently churned out in official documents, publications, speeches and broadcasts and memorized by millions of schoolchildren across the country who’ve studied the official curricula, so much so that it has become a part and parcel of popular imagination and ‘national folklore’. For most Pakistanis, it is difficult to imagine anything different transpiring between India and Pakistan in the fateful year of 1965. In fact, any alternate narrative is taken as an attempt to undermine Pakistan’s ‘justified claim’ to victory, and worse, as an attempt to endorse enemy India’s narrative which attributes victory to India.
With more than four fifth of Pakistan’s population being less than fifty years of age, most of today’s Pakistanis weren’t even born in 1965. Their knowledge of the war is almost entirely based on the distorted history taught in the official school curriculum or the propaganda narrative churned out by the military every year on the Defence Day.
The myth of ‘victory’ was created after the war had ended, in order to counter Indian claims of victory on the one hand and to shield the Ayub regime and the army from criticism on the other. Pakistan’s generals might not have won the war on the battlefield, but they managed to win it in the people’s minds. It was a propaganda victory any army would envy.
It makes sense for rival official propaganda machines on both sides to make tall claims of victory during and right after the war. However, for Pakistan’s security establishment to successfully and convincingly paddle this myth even after five decades points out towards the effectiveness of its propaganda and public relations apparatus which sustains an overall positive image of the military in the polity at any cost. This positive image is then cashed for expanding the military’s political power and shielding itself from legitimate criticism and accountability.
That is why it is important to continue churning and reinforcing the official myth of victory. And that is also the reason why it is important to celebrate this myth every year.
Same has started happening for Kargil too.
Luckily these are different times. While a different narrative may be created within Pakistan, that can’t be done internationally.
Even domestically there are scores of sane voices.
“Kargil war was a total disaster: Majeed Malik
Islamabad
Former federal minister Lt-Gen (r) Abdul Majeed Malik, who is an eyewitness to major happenings that took place during the tenure of the second Nawaz Sharif government, says the Kargil operation of Pervez Musharraf was badly conceived, faultily executed and totally unneeded.
“Musharraf’s assertion that the then government turned a won war into a political defeat is erroneous and misplaced. Rather it saved the army and Pakistan from further embarrassment, and this was a major achievement,” Majeed Malik, who was a key minister in the Nawaz Sharif cabinet, told The News.
The only element of pride in the Kargil war, he said, was that the junior officers and soldiers played a heroic role, which has no parallel in the world history. The whole nation lauds their bravery and courage.”.
@PradoTLC bravery of foot soldiers is highly appreciated. It is not the front line soldiers that failed your nation but the senior leadership by planning a kamikaze mission with shit planning and foresight.
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PradoTLC
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it is universally accepted that India started the trouble... then again Indra Gandoo always started the trouble via Pakistan
>East Pakistan
> BLA in late 1970s
>Siachen 1980s
so understandably Zia had her taken out..
for 11 weeks you could not dislodge us...so much for your planning...
till Clinton cracked his arse.. forcing nawaz to bend a knee.
VkdIndian
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Propaganda again? It seems it was Musharraf’s arse that was cracking as confirmed by Lt Gen Majid Malik
Lt Gen Majid Malik says -
“In this tough situation when Pakistan was in no position to fight India in that area, Nawaz Sharif government initiated the diplomatic process by involving the then US President Bill Clinton and got Pakistan out of the difficult scenario, Majeed Malik said.He added that when this process was started, it had become impossible for Pakistani troops to stay in the Kargil area.”
That’s how you all start propaganda.
“Had we been allowed to stay we would have defeated the entire world”
This thread is a perfect example of the shit you all spread.“Got Pakistan out of a difficult situation” and “Impossible to stay in Kargil” doesn’t really sound like what propaganda few losers like you are trying propagating on PDF.
Nice try though.
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Jackdaws
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I'll look it up. Thanks
Read the full article. Both sides were sending mountaineering expeditions, not military ones.
It was Pakistan which first decided to send a military expedition to occupy Siachen and India just got wind of it by chance because the supplier of materials was supplying India too.
