Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[GiG]

satellites get jammed. tell us something within domain of India and Pakistan

In the domain of india and Pakistan? I am not here to educate you go and read about satellite jamming techniques even some universities with basic resources can do that

 

[VkdIndian]

Can anyone explain me, Why is Kargil a victory for Pakistan?

What was pakistan objective -
What was Indian objective -

Who achieved the objective -

This thread is a perfect example of how some people twist facts for the purpose of propaganda.

All political parties, senior military officers, prominent journalists and citizens have all accepted that Kargil was a diplomatic, military and economic fiasco for Pakistan but this thread is a proof of an attempt to create a narrative that says otherwise.

In this attempt to twist historical facts these people have not hesitated to call Ex prime ministers and everyone else a traitor.

 

[PradoTLC]

india stands nowhere in front of pakistan , afterall pakistan has defeated two superpowers .

correct... thanks to Pakistan military training and armed support both USSR and NATO were defeated. this is confirmed from western sources.


now coming to infantry .. yes Pakistan infantry was better than Indian infantry this was assessed by UK's IISS back in 1999. Now the gap is much more as Pakistan Army has 20+ years of combating TTP, plus better training , tactics and combined arms and services integration.

So Col. Rajesh yes today an average Pakistani soldier isn't just better than a average indian but much better a few leagues better. They would cut your infantry like butter.

besides if you really could take Kargil, you could presumably have the technical competence to take on the PLA... but it didn't happen did it??... all what happened was IA got clobbered and retreated as the Chinese took what they needed.

In this attempt to twist historical facts these people have not hesitated to call Ex prime ministers and everyone else a traitor.

it is simple.

Your military assaults were ineffective.. so your politicians begged USA to save your rear ends knowing fully with the on set of winter you would have pack up and leave Siachen...

of course begging isn't new to you Indians .... you did in 1962 begging Kennedy to send USAF in against china .

Let me know if you want see evidence of this also.. (read CIA declassified files)

 

[PradoTLC]

Why is Kargil a victory for Pakistan?

your imagination is running a riot... who said it was a Pakistani victory?...

pay attention!

what we are saying it wasn't a indian military victory... more thank you Bill Clinton

Army can only fight if nation can afford it.

I guess India couldn't afford to fight Pakistan after it's airforce got wacked on 27 Feb 2019.


thanks for confirming

 

[VkdIndian]

it is simple.

Your military assaults were ineffective.. so your politicians begged USA to save your rear ends knowing fully with the on set of winter you would have pack up and leave Siachen...

of course begging isn't new to you Indians .... j you did in 1962 begging Kennedy to send USAF in against china .

Let me know if you want see evidence of this also.. (read CIA declassified files)

No need to go very far.

What happed at Kargil has been succinctly explained by Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi.

Since you all want to not listen to what they say here is one more reminder of their deductions.

When prominent Pakistanis are themselves accepting the facts about Kargil, we don’t need to ask anyone else.

These prominent personalities from across the society hold much more weightage than sorry a**who are spreading propaganda here.

Kargil was a major disaster for Pakistan.

 

[GumNaam]

No need to go very far.

What happed at Kargil has been succinctly explained by Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi.

Since you all want to not listen to what they say here is one more reminder of their deductions.

When prominent Pakistanis are themselves accepting the facts about Kargil, we don’t need to ask anyone else.

These prominent personalities from across the society hold much more weightage than sorry a**who are spreading propaganda here.

Kargil was a major disaster for Pakistan.

it was a major disaster alright, but not for Pakistan.

 

[Tornado23]

A big dilemma indeed.
For someone who calls Ex Prime ministers, retired defence officers and senior journalists traitor, it is indeed heartbreaking to see few Indians punching holes in his propaganda.

So let me just clarify a few things...

I asked a simple question, could easily have been answered by a simple answer.

How was operation vijay a success if Pakistan currently holds 4 of the peaks today?

And what did you reply with?

You spamming quoted and links that don't even talk about the peaks at all. 90% of your replies were about kargil casualties (which does not determine whether a war is won or lost unless its a war of attrition in which none of our wars were) and you just saying India won because pakistan lost.

None and I mean NONE of your replies were an answer to my question.

Then on top of that you had some weird comprehension issue where you couldn't understand the points and facts I put up were from your own peeps, prvlaveen swahmy and RK Anand, but you thought it was me who made those facts and points up constantly calling me a no one without realising you are a mere speck on this Earth.

Then you go along to cry about me calling ex pm nawaz sharif a traitor even though you have no knowledge on Pakistans politics as is evident by you using the same person as a source for casualties.

Then on top of all of that, you go on to completely dismiss what praveen and RK Anand said saying they are no one's, and go onto use nawaz sharifs figure?

Ok my dude. If you think that's busting propaganda then I'm going to have a field day with you [emoji23].

Wondering who's running for status quo ante belum in ladakh?

 

[VkdIndian]

As some people try to spin a weave of lies based on a narrative around one peak, the Pakistani and world media accepts the impact of Kargil on Pakistan.

The heights of folly: A critical look at the Kargil Operation

Nasim Zehra's book offers the reader a story, a thrilling one which is replete with information

herald.dawn.com

“India set up a Kargil Commission to look into how and why its strategic intelligence failed so badly, why its military response was so slow and sloppy in the beginning, the problems of interoperability between the army and the air force, the high Indian casualties and the flaws in logistics and leadership in the field. The commission was headed by a civilian, not a military officer. Its mandate was wide and deep. It went into every little detail, from the tactical to the strategic. It calculated any future threat and recommended force reconfiguration, etcetera. And – this is the best part – it made its report public. In short, that country tried to learn its lessons.”
And did Pakistan do after the loss?


“No such thing happened, or could happen, in Pakistan.

Instead, as Zehra’s book title says, what began as a covert, unauthorised, illegal military operation, outside the purview not only of civilian principals but also without the knowledge of the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Navy and even the military’s own intelligence agencies, led to a military coup and the ouster of a civilian government.

But before that, the cabal had to handle the deep resentment within the army. Musharraf had to face tough questions. Hasan, the FCNA commander, could not face his troops. As Zehra mentions: “Internally … there was disquiet after the withdrawal. Instructions were that Kargil would not be discussed in any school of instruction … No courses would be taught at then-NDC [National Defence College].”

Kargil was a taboo subject and remained so for a fairly long time.”

This is how some victors celebrate their victories.
They pass instructions not to talk about it.
And two decades later create a thread on PDF to celebrate the victory.

 

[GumNaam]

As some people try to spin a weave of lies based on a narrative around one peak, the Pakistani and world media accepts the impact of Kargil on Pakistan.

The heights of folly: A critical look at the Kargil Operation

Nasim Zehra's book offers the reader a story, a thrilling one which is replete with information

herald.dawn.com

“India set up a Kargil Commission to look into how and why its strategic intelligence failed so badly, why its military response was so slow and sloppy in the beginning, the problems of interoperability between the army and the air force, the high Indian casualties and the flaws in logistics and leadership in the field. The commission was headed by a civilian, not a military officer. Its mandate was wide and deep. It went into every little detail, from the tactical to the strategic. It calculated any future threat and recommended force reconfiguration, etcetera. And – this is the best part – it made its report public. In short, that country tried to learn its lessons.”
And did Pakistan do after the loss?


“No such thing happened, or could happen, in Pakistan.

Instead, as Zehra’s book title says, what began as a covert, unauthorised, illegal military operation, outside the purview not only of civilian principals but also without the knowledge of the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Navy and even the military’s own intelligence agencies, led to a military coup and the ouster of a civilian government.

But before that, the cabal had to handle the deep resentment within the army. Musharraf had to face tough questions. Hasan, the FCNA commander, could not face his troops. As Zehra mentions: “Internally … there was disquiet after the withdrawal. Instructions were that Kargil would not be discussed in any school of instruction … No courses would be taught at then-NDC [National Defence College].”

Kargil was a taboo subject and remained so for a fairly long time.”

This is how some victors celebrate their victories.
They pass instructions not to talk about it.
And two decades later create a thread on PDF to celebrate the victory.

indian struggling with their linguistic gymnastics on kargil right now...

 

[prothought]

What do you want to say? One example of Pakistan being obsessed?

Yes, one example. Let me help your tiny brain for that. You are claiming that Pakistanis are obsessed with India. I said we Pakistanis are not and that you’re simply lying. I asked you tell or show us all where you find Pakistanis obsessed with India. It’s not a rocket science and even your partially functional brain can infer that just one counter example can negate our claim that Pakistanis are not obsessed with filthy Indians. Now either you give a counter example or simply admit that you lied. But you need self-respect and some dignity to admit that you lied. You Indians are not blessed with those precious human qualities of self-respect and dignity either. So give us an example showing that we Pakistanis are obsessed with these filthy Indians.

Just one example. You know how many times your ministers and IK held press conferences as they were shit scared about an attack from India? Just Google it.

That shows your handicapped intellect. Seeing the evil design of the enemy, telling the whole world about the consequences of possible Indian stupidity is not called obsession. In this case, there is a reason to warn the world about India. On the other side of the border, your rulers, politicians, officials, and TV hosts are continuously talking against Pakistan day and night and acting like mad dogs without any reason. That is called obsession. It’s not a matter of your not watching this Indian TV talk show or that. Almost all Indian shows are like that. You watch Arnab show or not, I give a damn to that. I don’t watch shitty Indians’ TV shows in any case. But your TV shows are clearly an evidence how deeply Indians are obsessed with Pakistan.
I was asking you tell us all any example like that where our TV shows seem obsessed with India and talking day and night against Indians. You’ll not find a single one. That’s my challenge to you. If you have some dignity, then take my challenge.

This thread is about your loss in Kargil. You want to add about how you could have avoided it or what went wrong, please put your thoughts here.

Yes, having gained control of many peaks and killing scores of enemy soldiers is our net loss during the Kargil war.
This thread is about the Indian loss and how you failed to reclaim all heights from Pakistani by launching operation vijay. To your pain, we still hold many of those peaks under our firm control even today. And instead of showing us how you think your military was successful in reclaiming peaks that Indians lost, you’re spreading lies here. No wonders at all, dude. That’s shitty lies are exactly what we always expect from an Indian. After all, India is the sh!t-house and the global capital of lies and falsehood. Indian Chronicles is just one example.
I’ll urge you to drink less daily amount of urine.

 

[Tornado23]

Yes, one example. Let me help your tiny brain for that. You are claiming that Pakistanis are obsessed with India. I said we Pakistanis are not and that you’re simply lying. I asked you tell or show us all where you find Pakistanis obsessed with India. It’s not a rocket science and even your partially functional brain can infer that just one counter example can negate our claim that Pakistanis are not obsessed with filthy Indians. Now either you give a counter example or simply admit that you lied. But you need self-respect and some dignity to admit that you lied. You Indians are not blessed with those precious human qualities of self-respect and dignity either. So give us an example showing that we Pakistanis are obsessed with these filthy Indians.


That shows your handicapped intellect. Seeing the evil design of the enemy, telling the whole world about the consequences of possible Indian stupidity is not called obsession. In this case, there is a reason to warn the world about India. On the other side of the border, your rulers, politicians, officials, and TV hosts are continuously talking against Pakistan day and night and acting like mad dogs without any reason. That is called obsession. It’s not a matter of your not watching this Indian TV talk show or that. Almost all Indian shows are like that. You watch Arnab show or not, I give a damn to that. I don’t watch shitty Indians’ TV shows in any case. But your TV shows are clearly an evidence how deeply Indians are obsessed with Pakistan.
I was asking you tell us all any example like that where our TV shows seem obsessed with India and talking day and night against Indians. You’ll not find a single one. That’s my challenge to you. If you have some dignity, then take my challenge.


Yes, having gained control of many peaks and killing scores of enemy soldiers is our net loss during the Kargil war.
This thread is about the Indian loss and how you failed to reclaim all heights from Pakistani by launching operation vijay. To your pain, we still hold many of those peaks under our firm control even today. And instead of showing us how you think your military was successful in reclaiming peaks that Indians lost, you’re spreading lies here. No wonders at all, dude. That’s shitty lies are exactly what we always expect from an Indian. After all, India is the sh!t-house and the global capital of lies and falsehood. Indian Chronicles is just one example.
I’ll urge you to drink less daily amount of urine.

Oh oh

You brought up the point about peaks to him.

Now he's gonna spam useless links and videos to you talking about casualties and use nawaz sharif as a source. :0

 

[Windjammer]

Can anyone explain me, Why is Kargil a victory for Pakistan?

What was pakistan objective -
What was Indian objective -

Who achieved the objective -

The old proverb is quality vs quantity.
Pakistan army regulars intruded well into Indian side of LOC and killed hundreds of Indian soldiers.
According to General Bakhshi, Pakistani fire was so intense and effective that Indian soldiers were even forced to do their potty inside their bunkers.
Despite repeated attempts by IA, they were unable to dislodge Pakistani soldiers from occupied Indian posts.
As a Cherry on the cake, General Musharraf was flown 11km across the LOC and spent a night with his troops before next day the Chopper went back to pick him up.....The IAF on both occasions was caught with it's pants down.
Technically both the IAF and IA should have attacked Pakistani posts on the other side of LOC....no stomach....few times the IAF ventured it paid the price.
A lot of weekend warriors question, where was PAF when IAF was bombing Pakistani troops.
Firstly, IAF was carrying out attacks on it's own side of LOC on positions well demarcated , even then it needed assistance from both Israel and US to carry out operations on own territory....pathetic performance.
We saw how the gullible Indian public was kept in the loop Bollywood style by IA placing camera men behind ever Rock, Boulder and Glacier, staging and filming transfer of Pakistani soldier's bodies or coffins....did you witness any such cheap stunts by Pakistani side....or do you think no Indian soldiers died and no bodies were handed over by Pakistan.
Let me rephrase just one example...One Pakistani commander kept calling his Indian counterpart for Three days, asking and giving permission to him to remove bodies of Indian soldiers.....apart from being professional, the sight of wild animals scavenging on those bodies was gruesome and the stench was unbearable....but the Indian soldiers were reluctant to collect their dead thinking it might be a trap....however after three days and repeated assurances, a four man party of Indian soldier finally ventured very cautiously and realised the grizzly scene.
Finally our PM buckled under American pressure thus giving a new lease of life to the well documented Indian propaganda.

My question is why are these Indian users allowed to stay on this forum even tho its evident they are just here to troll, flamebait and/or derail threads.

It's a shame that MODs are on sleeping pills, however, you are wasting your time and giving unnecessary attention to these creatures.....who need a Pakistani platform to have a voice.

 

[Tornado23]

The old proverb is quality vs quantity.
Pakistan army regulars intruded well into Indian side of LOC and killed hundreds of Indian soldiers.
According to General Bakhshi, Pakistani fire was so intense and effective that Indian soldiers were even forced to do their potty inside their bunkers.
Despite repeated attempts by IA, they were unable to dislodge Pakistani soldiers from occupied Indian posts.
As a Cherry on the cake, General Musharraf was flown 11km across the LOC and spent a night with his troops before next day the Chopper went back to pick him up.....The IAF on both occasions was caught with it's pants down.
Technically both the IAF and IA should have attacked Pakistani posts on the other side of LOC....no stomach....few times the IAF ventured it paid the price.
A lot of weekend warriors question, where was PAF when IAF was bombing Pakistani troops.
Firstly, IAF was carrying out attacks on it's own side of LOC on positions well demarcated , even then it needed assistance from both Israel and US to carry out operations on own territory....pathetic performance.
We saw how the gullible Indian public was kept in the loop Bollywood style by IA placing camera men behind ever Rock, Boulder and Glacier, staging and filming transfer of Pakistani soldier's bodies or coffins....did you witness any such cheap stunts by Pakistani side....or do you think no Indian soldiers died and no bodies were handed over by Pakistan.
Let me rephrase just one example...One Pakistani commander kept calling his Indian counterpart for Three days, asking and giving permission to him to remove bodies of Indian soldiers.....apart from being professional, the sight of wild animals scavenging on those bodies was gruesome and the stench was unbearable....but the Indian soldiers were reluctant to collect their dead thinking it might be a trap....however after three days and repeated assurances, a four man party of Indian soldier finally ventured very cautiously and realised the grizzly scene.
Finally our PM buckled under American pressure thus giving a new lease of life to the well documented Indian propaganda.

It's a shame that MODs are on sleeping pills, however, you are wasting your time and giving unnecessary attention to these creatures.....who need a Pakistani platform to have a voice.

The debate between me and vkdindian is more or less over. He had no answer to my question which is evident through his replies.

Also I appreciate your work on this forum. Keep it up [emoji106]

 

[VkdIndian]

Yes, one example. Let me help your tiny brain for that. You are claiming that Pakistanis are obsessed with India. I said we Pakistanis are not and that you’re simply lying. I asked you tell or show us all where you find Pakistanis obsessed with India. It’s not a rocket science and even your partially functional brain can infer that just one counter example can negate our claim that Pakistanis are not obsessed with filthy Indians. Now either you give a counter example or simply admit that you lied.

You just need to say that you want some more examples about this obsession. But you get excited and write long unwinded sentences, I don’t know why.

Here are some international media houses bringing out Pakistan obsession with

Analysis: As Pakistan stares at India, India eyes the world

When a senior security official here was asked why Pakistan was not developing long-range missiles, unlike in India, his answer revealed how these two nuclear foes' geopolitical priorities may be diverging.

www.reuters.com

70 years since Partition, Pakistan still hasn’t been able to separate itself from India

Mid-August remains an annual reminder of the shared history and mutually assured destruction that binds India and Pakistan together

www.independent.co.uk

In Flourishing India, An Old Obsession With Pakistan

Since they were founded from the partition of British India in 1947, Pakistan and India have become locked in a relationship rooted in rivalry and suspicion. But many Indians believe the country's biggest foreign policy challenge these days is its rivalry with China, and that it is time to put...

www.npr.org

Pakistan seeks peace with India: Is it for real? - The Sunday Guardian Live

The fact that Pakistan made a U-turn on opening trade with India under internal pressure indicates the fragile nature of its peace overture. BACKDROP

www.sundayguardianlive.com

Why My Father Hated India

Aatish Taseer, the son of an assassinated Pakistani leader, explains the history and hysteria behind a deadly relationship.

www.wsj.com

Happy?

That shows your handicapped intellect. Seeing the evil design of the enemy, telling the whole world about the consequences of possible Indian stupidity is not called obsession. In this case, there is a reason to warn the world about India. On the other side of the border, your rulers, politicians, officials, and TV hosts are continuously talking against Pakistan day and night and acting like mad dogs without any reason. That is called obsession. It’s not a matter of your not watching this Indian TV talk show or that. Almost all Indian shows are like that. You watch Arnab show or not, I give a damn to that. I don’t watch shitty Indians’ TV shows in any case. But your TV shows are clearly an evidence how deeply Indians are obsessed with Pakistan.
I was asking you tell us all any example like that where our TV shows seem obsessed with India and talking day and night against Indians. You’ll not find a single one. That’s my challenge to you. If you have some dignity, then take my challenge.

You do get excited? The guy who is ready for mudslinging. Don’t be a child.
You claim that you don’t watch any Indian News channel but you quote so much from them? How do you do that? I don’t watch any Tv news channels. Most of them are shit including Pakistani ones. Keep wasting your time on them.

Yes, having gained control of many peaks and killing scores of enemy soldiers is our net loss during the Kargil war.
This thread is about the Indian loss and how you failed to reclaim all heights from Pakistani by launching operation vijay. To your pain, we still hold many of those peaks under our firm control even today. And instead of showing us how you think your military was successful in reclaiming peaks that Indians lost, you’re spreading lies here. No wonders at all, dude. That’s shitty lies are exactly what we always expect from an Indian. After all, India is the sh!t-house and the global capital of lies and falsehood. Indian Chronicles is just one example.
I’ll urge you to drink less daily amount of urine.

You do look like an a** to me. Amount of shit and piss talking done by FMs from your country shows where shit and piss is.

Oh oh

You brought up the point about peaks to him.

Now he's gonna spam useless links and videos to you talking about casualties and use nawaz sharif as a source. :0

A notation surviving on propaganda can never accept facts.

All propaganda starts with small stories and are built up over time to create and change the narrative.
A nation that lost a conflict badly as accepted by the entire world is trying to do the same. Create a narrative to change the colour of defeat gradually.

Ain’t gonna work you despicable losers.
Losers who can go to the extent of calling prominent people like Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi traitors.

@Huffal and @prothought you are like insects in front of these personalities. All these people have spoken clearly how you lost in Kargil.
How the entire world laughed on you all as your Army Chief made a fool out of your PM.
Try as hard as you all want but fact is fact.

Pakistan lost in Kargil and lost badly.

 

[Tornado23]

You just need to say that you want some more examples about this obsession. But you get excited and write long unwinded sentences, I don’t know why.

Here are some international media houses bringing out Pakistan obsession with

Analysis: As Pakistan stares at India, India eyes the world

When a senior security official here was asked why Pakistan was not developing long-range missiles, unlike in India, his answer revealed how these two nuclear foes' geopolitical priorities may be diverging.

www.reuters.com

70 years since Partition, Pakistan still hasn’t been able to separate itself from India

Mid-August remains an annual reminder of the shared history and mutually assured destruction that binds India and Pakistan together

www.independent.co.uk

In Flourishing India, An Old Obsession With Pakistan

Since they were founded from the partition of British India in 1947, Pakistan and India have become locked in a relationship rooted in rivalry and suspicion. But many Indians believe the country's biggest foreign policy challenge these days is its rivalry with China, and that it is time to put...

www.npr.org

Pakistan seeks peace with India: Is it for real? - The Sunday Guardian Live

The fact that Pakistan made a U-turn on opening trade with India under internal pressure indicates the fragile nature of its peace overture. BACKDROP

www.sundayguardianlive.com

Why My Father Hated India

Aatish Taseer, the son of an assassinated Pakistani leader, explains the history and hysteria behind a deadly relationship.

www.wsj.com

Happy?

You do get excited? The guy who is ready for mudslinging. Don’t be a child.
You claim that you don’t watch any Indian News channel but you quote so much from them? How do you do that? I don’t watch any Tv news channels. Most of them are shit including Pakistani ones. Keep wasting your time on them.


You do look like an a** to me. Amount of shit and piss talking done by FMs from your country shows where shit and piss is.

A notation surviving on propaganda can never accept facts.

All propaganda starts with small stories and are built up over time to create and change the narrative.
A nation that lost a conflict badly as accepted by the entire world is trying to do the same. Create a narrative to change the colour of defeat gradually.

Ain’t gonna work you despicable losers.
Losers who can go to the extent of calling prominent people like Benazir Bhutto, Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak , Kaiser Tufail and Nazam Sethi traitors.

@Huffal and @prothought you are like insects in front of these personalities. All these people have spoken clearly how you lost in Kargil.
How the entire world laughed on you all as your Army Chief made a fool out of your PM.
Try as hard as you all want but fact is fact.

Pakistan lost in Kargil and lost badly.

We are like insects whilst you are defecation in front of those I linked to you.

You haven't refuted them nor refuted any of the points/facts I presented to you.

Have a nice day.


PS those links about Pakistan being obsessed with India are down right stupid.

The first links, being reuters is about missile range and how Pakistan only wants to target India as India is its enemy.

2nd is clearly biased and retarded.

Sacrificed 80k civillians? Bruh 77k including security personnel to terror attacks which we were fighting but ok whatever helps your narrative lol.

Come on dude.

It's nothing on the scale of this obsssesion

EU NGO report uncovers Indian disinformation campaign

EU DisinfoLab’s report a ‘deep dive into a 15-year operation targeting the EU and UN to serve Indian interests’.

www.aljazeera.com