Kargil : Indian Army's operation "Vijay" was ineffective

[Tornado23]

@Huffal

View attachment 752948

Thank you O7

 

[Tornado23]

Does anyone really think Indian & Pakistani leaders listens to American Presidents on Kashmir ?

Read your quote - " Because earlier Clinton had made a statement saying he will take a poke at the Kashmir issue and called both India and Pakistan to settle the issue....as usual annoying the real culprit party. "


If Pakistan had that kind of ability they would not nibbling at desolate god forsaken mountain peaks in the middle of winter. It would be more like a march on Delhi

Then that would be a declaration of war. The kargil conflict is not a war. Did either side declare war on each other during the conflict?

It was a limited conflict.

 

[Tornado23]

Thats the mastery of a nation that declares anyone saying truth a traitor.

The international media on Kargil -

“Pakistan
Faced with the possibility of international isolation, the already fragile Pakistani economy was weakened further. The morale of its forces after the withdrawal was affected as many units of the Northern Light Infantry were destroyed, and the government refused to even recognise the dead bodies of its soldiers, an issue that provoked outrage and riots in the Northern Areas. Pakistan initially did not acknowledge many of its casualties, but Sharif later said that over 4,000 Pakistani troops were killed in the operation and that Pakistan had lost the conflict. Responding to this, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf said, "It hurts me when an ex-premier undermines his own forces," and claimed that Indian casualties were more than that of Pakistan.

Many in Pakistan had expected a victory over the Indian military based on Pakistani official reports on the war, but were dismayed by the turn of events and questioned the eventual retreat. The military leadership is believed to have felt let down by the prime minister's decision to withdraw the remaining fighters. However, some authors, including ex- CENTCOM Commander Anthony Zinni, and ex-PM Nawaz Sharif, state that it was the General who requested Sharif to withdraw the Pakistani troops. With Sharif placing the onus of the Kargil attacks squarely on the army chief Pervez Musharraf, there was an atmosphere of uneasiness between the two. On October 12, 1999, General Musharraf staged a bloodless coup d'état, ousting Nawaz Sharif.

Benazir Bhutto, an opposition leader and former prime minister, called the Kargil War "Pakistan's greatest blunder". Many ex-officials of the military and the ISI (Pakistan's principal intelligence agency) also were of the view that "Kargil was a waste of time" and "could not have resulted in any advantage" on the larger issue of Kashmir. A retired Pakistani Army General, Lt Gen Ali Quli Khan Khattak, lambasted the war as "a disaster bigger than the East Pakistan tragedy", adding that the plan was "flawed in terms of its conception, tactical planning and execution" that ended in "sacrificing so many soldiers.". The Pakistani media too was vocal in its criticism of the whole plan and the eventual climbdown from the Kargil heights since there were no gains to show for the loss of lives and only resulted in international condemnation for its actions.

Despite calls by many for a probe, no public commission of inquiry was set up to investigate the people responsible for initiating the conflict. However, the Pakistani political party, PML(N) recently unveiled a white paper which states that Nawaz Sharif constituted an inquiry committee that recommended a court martial for General Pervez Musharraf. The party alleges that Musharraf "stole the report" after toppling the government, to save himself. The report also claims that India knew about the plan 11 months before its launch, enabling a complete victory for India on military, diplomatic and economic fronts. Though the Kargil conflict had brought the Kashmir dispute into international focus – which was one of the aims of Pakistan – it had done so in negative circumstances that eroded its credibility, since the infiltration came just after a peace process between the two countries was underway. The sanctity of the LoC too received international recognition.

A few changes were made to the army. In recognition of its part in the war, the Northern Light Infantry regiment was incorporated into the regular army. The war showed that despite a tactically sound plan that had the element of surprise, little groundwork had been done to gauge the politico-diplomatic ramifications. And like previous unsuccessful infiltrations attempts like Operation Gibraltar that sparked the 1965 war, there was little coordination or information sharing among the branches of the Pakistan military. One U.S. Intelligence study is reported to have stated that Kargil was yet another example of Pakistan’s (lack of) grand strategy, repeating the follies of the previous wars. All these factors contributed to a strategic failure for Pakistan in Kargil.”

Kargil War

www.cs.mcgill.ca

Read what Benazir Bhutto and Lt Gen Khattak had to say about Kargil effort.
Are they also traitors?
Please answer and don’t avoid.

An article based on nawaz sharifs baseless figures is an article not worth mentioning due to its outdated figures.

If the whole NLI fighting force was destroyed then why was it integrated into the armed forces after the kargil conflict?

Considering the fact that the article does not mention any of the peaks occupied by us let alone 5353 how can you say this article shows paks defeat?

As per Jackdaws whose extract quite clearly says India lost militarily (lol)

And also many other links that I have put up and also other users like signalian put up, which clearly shows India did not win the kargil war.

Also again. Avoiding my question with useless links speaking of casualties.

The points I put up was not about casualties. They are about the end results of territory gained.

How was operation vijay a success when we clearly hold 4 of the peaks today?

You can keep spamming useless links that speak nothing of the peaks, rather just casualties.

Casualties don't determine victory or loss. You can take 1 million casualties and still take a city (stalin grad for example).

Also why should I answer your questions when you haven't answered mine? Lol. Don't be so naive child.

 

[Jackdaws]

Such statements are not meant for key board warriors.
Here's something more to choke on.... the culprit party went to this length to divert attention from the core issue....just before Clinton landed there.

The Chittisinghpura massacre refers to the mass murder of 35 villagers of the Sikh faith that was carried out on 20 March 2000 in the Chittisinghpora village of Anantnag district, Jammu and Kashmir, India on the eve of the US president Bill Clinton's state visit to India.

It's quite well known who committed by the Chattisingpora massacre.

Lashkar behind Sikh massacre in Kashmir in 2000, says Headley

Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Coleman Headley has reportedly told US and Indian investigators that the March 2000 Chittisinghpora village massacre, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton’s visit to India, had been carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba...

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[VkdIndian]

You can keep spamming useless links that speak nothing of the peaks, rather just casualties.

Two Ex-Prime ministers and atleast 15 Lt Gen rank officers from Pakistan defence forces have accepted that Kargil was a Military, economic and Diplomatic fiasco.

You can keep PEAKING all you want. 10-15 guys on PDF can keep their head in the sand. It doesn’t make any difference what so ever.

International and domestic opinion of anyone even with a little head has accepted the realities.

why should I answer your questions when you haven't answered mine

I know why?
Because they said this-
“Benazir Bhutto, an opposition leader and former prime minister, called the Kargil War "Pakistan's greatest blunder". Many ex-officials of the military and the ISI (Pakistan's principal intelligence agency) also were of the view that "Kargil was a waste of time" and "could not have resulted in any advantage" on the larger issue of Kashmir. A retired Pakistani Army General, Lt Gen Ali Quli Khan Khattak, lambasted the war as "a disaster bigger than the East Pakistan tragedy",

 

[Tornado23]

Two Ex-Prime ministers and atleast 15 Lt Gen rank officers from Pakistan defence forces have accepted that Kargil was a Military, economic and Diplomatic fiasco.

You can keep PEAKING all you want. 10-15 guys on PDF can keep their head in the sand. It doesn’t make any difference what so ever.

International and domestic opinion of anyone even with a little head has accepted the realities.


I know why? [emoji1787][emoji1787]
Because they said this-
“Benazir Bhutto, an opposition leader and former prime minister, called the Kargil War "Pakistan's greatest blunder". Many ex-officials of the military and the ISI (Pakistan's principal intelligence agency) also were of the view that "Kargil was a waste of time" and "could not have resulted in any advantage" on the larger issue of Kashmir. A retired Pakistani Army General, Lt Gen Ali Quli Khan Khattak, lambasted the war as "a disaster bigger than the East Pakistan tragedy",

Again you haven't answered my question. You are deviating from the point at hand.

How was operation vijay a success when they didn't take back all the peaks from Pakistan?

None of your quotes, links or whatever haven't answered my question.


Can you comprehend simple English? You spamming quoted or links saying kargil was a failure is moot. Especially when considering they are dozens of articles, links, quotes and what not all pointing to India losing the war.

If you think india won you are a clown. If you think India won due to its military then you bring the national iq of India down from 82 to below 70.

 

[colonel rajesh]

Two Ex-Prime ministers and atleast 15 Lt Gen rank officers from Pakistan defence forces have accepted that Kargil was a Military, economic and Diplomatic fiasco.

You can keep PEAKING all you want. 10-15 guys on PDF can keep their head in the sand. It doesn’t make any difference what so ever.

International and domestic opinion of anyone even with a little head has accepted the realities.


I know why?
Because they said this-
“Benazir Bhutto, an opposition leader and former prime minister, called the Kargil War "Pakistan's greatest blunder". Many ex-officials of the military and the ISI (Pakistan's principal intelligence agency) also were of the view that "Kargil was a waste of time" and "could not have resulted in any advantage" on the larger issue of Kashmir. A retired Pakistani Army General, Lt Gen Ali Quli Khan Khattak, lambasted the war as "a disaster bigger than the East Pakistan tragedy",

finally intruders went home with black face .

 

[GiG]

finally intruders went home with black face .

The irony of this statement

 

[colonel rajesh]

The irony of this statement
View attachment 752973

93000 faces from dhaka including one famous general are the best example if you know .

 

[GiG]

93000 faces from dhaka including one famous general are the best example if you know .

93000 is Indian propaganda it was around 35000, Pakistanis didn't treated Bengalis the right way and paid the price any way your own field marshal admitted how they they fought,

India should wait for its fate what goes around comes around :-D

 

[Windjammer]

It's quite well known who committed by the Chattisingpora massacre.

Lashkar behind Sikh massacre in Kashmir in 2000, says Headley

Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Coleman Headley has reportedly told US and Indian investigators that the March 2000 Chittisinghpora village massacre, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton’s visit to India, had been carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba...

www.hindustantimes.com

Now lets see.....source is Hindustan Times BTW.


Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Coleman Headley has reportedly told US and Indian investigators that the March 2000 Chittisinghpora village massacre, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton’s visit to India, had been carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba (LeT).


India’s security establishment had always blamed the LeT and the Hizbul Mujahideen for the massacre in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.

But many others — including the US administration — doubted the claim. President Clinton condemned the massacre, but was cautious to blame “unknown groups”. Years later, writing the introduction to his then secretary of state Madeleine Albright’s subsequent book Madam Secretary: A Memoir, he is said to have blamed ‘Hindu militants’ for the attack. The reference was however, edited out by the publishers.

Strobe Talbott, then deputy secretary of state, later confirmed Clinton was never convinced the Lashkar was behind the violence.

A number of facts about the killings led to these doubts. Most important was the fact that most of those killed were Sikhs. Sikhs had never before been targeted by Kashmiri militants.



An army encounter five days later in Pathribal village, which was later found to have been staged, indicated there was more behind the Chhittisinghpur killings than met the eye.

 

[Jackdaws]

Now lets see.....source is Hindustan Times BTW.


Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Coleman Headley has reportedly told US and Indian investigators that the March 2000 Chittisinghpora village massacre, which took place three days before then US President Bill Clinton’s visit to India, had been carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba (LeT).


India’s security establishment had always blamed the LeT and the Hizbul Mujahideen for the massacre in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.

But many others — including the US administration — doubted the claim. President Clinton condemned the massacre, but was cautious to blame “unknown groups”. Years later, writing the introduction to his then secretary of state Madeleine Albright’s subsequent book Madam Secretary: A Memoir, he is said to have blamed ‘Hindu militants’ for the attack. The reference was however, edited out by the publishers.

Strobe Talbott, then deputy secretary of state, later confirmed Clinton was never convinced the Lashkar was behind the violence.

A number of facts about the killings led to these doubts. Most important was the fact that most of those killed were Sikhs. Sikhs had never before been targeted by Kashmiri militants.



An army encounter five days later in Pathribal village, which was later found to have been staged, indicated there was more behind the Chhittisinghpur killings than met the eye.

So there is some conjecture from the American leadership - that's fine.

Meanwhile, a convicted terrorist owned up to it.

 

[VkdIndian]

Again you haven't answered my question. You are deviating from the point at hand.

You do think that you are very important and you expect answers from others.

You are no one.

You are someone trying to create a false narrative and spread propaganda about an event which has been cast in stone.

I wouldn’t allow that.

It is despicable that you call your two Ex PMs and large number of prominent personalities and retired military officers traitors? You are no one to call them traitor.

Shows your true character.

Kargil was a military and economic disaster for Pakistan.

 

[Tornado23]

You do think that you are very important and you expect answers from others.

You are no one.

You are someone trying to create a false narrative and spread propaganda about an event which has been cast in stone.

I wouldn’t allow that.

It is despicable that you call your two Ex PMs and large number of prominent personalities and retired military officers traitors? You are no one to call them traitor.

Shows your true character.

Kargil was a military and economic disaster for Pakistan.

I am no one I know. But praveen swahmy and RK Anand are known people. I used their analogies and notes.

I don't understand why you think it's me who made these points. I told you this many times. Then again feigning ignorance is what you Indians do best. Scratch that it's actually making propaganda.


Also why shouldn't I call nawaz sharif a traitor? He plunged Pakistan into a debt trap, ruined the economy, withdrew supplies from the troops fighting in kargil and did many other criminal activities.

But eh. You dc about that do you? After all. You are from the nation which assassinated its own founding father Mr mahatama ghandi. A shameless nation.

But since you didn't give an answer to my question I would assume you have none.

Have a nice day.

I will leave you with this quote.

'PAKISTAN soldiers perched at peak 5353, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking the official end of the Kargil war. At least some of them must had wry smiles on their faces, for although peak 5353 metres is inside the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC), Pakistani troops held the mountain through the Kargil war and continue to do so today. '

 

[VkdIndian]

Also why shouldn't I call nawaz sharif a traitor? He plunged Pakistan into a debt trap, ruined the economy, withdrew supplies from the troops fighting in kargil and did many other criminal activities.

Very convenient of you to mention Nawaz and miss the names of Benazir Bhutto, and so many other senior defence officers.

Clearly shows your agenda.

Come back when you have answer to statements made by Mushahid Hussain, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, Lt Gen Majid Malik, Lt Gen Khattak and Nazam Sethi.

They all have said very clearly that Kargil was a military, economic and diplomatic disaster for Pakistan.