JF-17 trumps the Viper in certain domains

[Kompromat]

The F-16 is like a girlfriend who needs to call daddy before she can get on with you at 2am every night.

 

[Trango Towers]

What makes you think so ?

Because the educated ones are in your call centres

The F-16 is like a girlfriend who needs to call daddy before she can get on with you at 2am every night.

Can I have what you are smoking bro. It's good stuff

 

[Gurjot.S]

Because the educated ones are in your call centres

Call center jobs here are considered as time pass. All you need is good communication skills.

 

[araz]

I don't get why people keep saying it's engine isn't good. Its the same engine on the mug 29. Explain what's wrong with the engine please

It is not that the engine is bad.It is certainly not in the class of the Western engines like the EJ200/220 series. So it is OK for the time. In order to progress we may need a better engine possibly 2 /3 more HPs and Possibly CFTs. Considering that the require more power we should be on the look out for a better engine. Whether we get it from improvements in the RD series or WS series or somewhere else remains to be seen.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

It is not that the engine is bad.It is certainly not in the class of the Western engines like the EJ200/220 series. So it is OK for the time. In order to progress we may need a better engine possibly 2 /3 more HPs and Possibly CFTs. Considering that the require more power we should be on the look out for a better engine. Whether we get it from improvements in the RD series or WS series or somewhere else remains to be seen.
A

Why is it not in the class of western engines?. Why is more power required please elaborate

 

[araz]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio

Scroll down and see the other modern combat aircraft and their T/W Ratio.
This talk is just bull

I understand where you are coming from. However, if a better prospect came up would you still stick to the same negine or change to the better one. There are plenty of hints that PAF continuously compares RD series with other engines. You do know that the prospects of an engine change is a fuel to an offer of better technology. So currently it may be fine but if the prospects became available ala RD93 MA then why not?
A

Why is it not in the class of western engines?. Why is more power required please elaborate

compare the specs including power, MTBO, weight, no FADEC etc and you will know why.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

I understand where you are coming from. However, if a better prospect came up would you still stick to the same negine or change to the better one. There are plenty of hints that PAF continuously compares RD series with other engines. You do know that the prospects of an engine change is a fuel to an offer of better technology. So currently it may be fine but if the prospects became available al RD93 MA then why not?
A

I think the only time they will switch to a western engine is if they produce it in Pakistan. They will not change it

I understand where you are coming from. However, if a better prospect came up would you still stick to the same negine or change to the better one. There are plenty of hints that PAF continuously compares RD series with other engines. You do know that the prospects of an engine change is a fuel to an offer of better technology. So currently it may be fine but if the prospects became available al RD93 MA then why not?
A


compare the specs including power, MTBO, weight, no FADEC etc and you will know why.
A

Look everyone here is an expert yet when asked no one had an answer. But they keep saying it's not let's with western engine and we need a better engine. I know the engine is just fine

 

[araz]

I think the only time they will switch to a western engine is if they produce it in Pakistan. They will not change it

I am not necessarily saying it has to be a western engine. I merely compared as they currently are the gold standard by which one compares engines. I have repeatedly mentioned RD series and WS series. However, in this game you never say never. These are merely options that are or may be open at some time and depending on the conditions PAC may consider it.
A

I think the only time they will switch to a western engine is if they produce it in Pakistan. They will not change it


Look everyone here is an expert yet when asked no one had an answer. But they keep saying it's not let's with western engine and we need a better engine. I know the engine is just fine

The first paragraph is unlikely for the next decade and a half or more, so let us not go down that route. However, if the Turkish forays go through on their co operation on the EJ series, would your objections still remain?
Regarding the second paragraph, please remember this is an opinion forum where people express their opinions. Very few people here are real experts. As long as they are reasonable one listens /reads them. If you dont agree, agree to disagree and move on.
Regards

But it should be taken into account that PAF is not only an operator but also a seller of JF-17. And vendors always paint a rosy picture of their product. Since the said person fell short of providing any data to his assertion, makes it more of a marketing ploy by CEO of a company(surprisingly, he actually is of PAC).

No CEO would bull shit on an open forum of importance with that amount of assurance. If you are interested as a nation in procuring the platform, you can ask the relevant people what those parameters are. However, till such time, what he says stands.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

I am not necessarily saying it has to be a western engine. I merely compared as they currently are the gold standard by which one compares engines. I have repeatedly mentioned RD series and WS series. However, in this game you never say never. These are merely options that are or may be open at some time and depending on the conditions PAC may consider it.
A


The first paragraph is unlikely for the next decade and a half or more, so let us not go down that route. However, if the Turkish forays go through on their co operation on the EJ series, would your objections still remain?
Regarding the second paragraph, please remember this is an opinion forum where people express their opinions. Very few people here are real experts. As long as they are reasonable one listens /reads them. If you dont agree, agree to disagree and move on.
Regards

If the Turks and Pakistan get involved then I believe if there are no sanctions on the engine and I know from a matalergy point of view and maintenance point of view western engines are far superior to Russians. Example single crystal turbine blade technology etc. Then future PAK 5th generation aircraft may well be fitted with a new engine. I don't believe that the current fleet of jf17 will warrant a engine change simply on cost basis. Engine integration is a science in itself. Airframe structural design adjustment may be required. There is a whole Pandoras box waiting.
Hope that kinda clarifies where I am standing on this one.

Spot on 're PAF chiefs statement

 

[araz]

Wow, I had no idea PAF F 16s dont have refueling capability. Also it seems to be handicapped to a degree to be the tip of qualitative sword of PAF. JF 17 thunder seems capable enough to take that spot now.

Have you not seen those big drums round the side of the Bl.52s which other people call CFTs, that three quarters of the Indian nation were hell bent on assuring us were not part of our package and the range they gve the bird? But then to you everything pakistani is down graded is it not? If it is any consolation it is not the refuelling capability but the refuelling system(called Hose and Droge system) that we lack and perhaps dont need.
A

 

[Trango Towers]

Have you not seen those big drums round the side of the Bl.52s which other people call CFTs, that three quarters of the Indian nation were hell bent on assuring us were not part of our package and the range they gve the bird? But then to you everything pakistani is down graded is it not? If it is any consolation it is not the refuelling capability but the refuelling system(called Hose and Droge system) that we lack and perhaps dont need.
A

Quite right. F16 referring is different from jf17. I have seen paf f16 refulleing from kc130 tanker

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-air-refueling-capability.30256/page-31

 

[Chak Bamu]

3. Faster turnaround - believe it or not, the Thunder can be prepared in shorter duration of time for its next mission after landing. Rumor has it 45mins (same time as a Typhoon) which includes refuelling, re-arming and doing all the other ground checks.

I can confirm that 45 minute turn-around time is correct. Consider this information as open source. There is a bit more to it than just turn-around time. The engine change is also extremely fast.

 

[Trango Towers]

I can confirm that 45 minute turn-around time is correct. Consider this information as open source. There is a bit more to it than just turn-around time. The engine change is also extremely fast.

From the onset and I have it from the horses mouth. Jf17 was designed to be modular. Plug and play type

 

[araz]

If the Turks and Pakistan get involved then I believe if there are no sanctions on the engine and I know from a matalergy point of view and maintenance point of view western engines are far superior to Russians. Example single crystal turbine blade technology etc. Then future PAK 5th generation aircraft may well be fitted with a new engine. I don't believe that the current fleet of jf17 will warrant a engine change simply on cost basis. Engine integration is a science in itself. Airframe structural design adjustment may be required. There is a whole Pandoras box waiting.
Hope that kinda clarifies where I am standing on this one.

Spot on 're PAF chiefs statement

Fair enough. However till you show mother Russia something better you wont get the necessary improvements that you desire in the RD series.So the gist of my argument was with regard to getting improvements from vendors who currently supply PAF, ie Chinese or Russians.
I agree with you that it opens a new pandora's box with adjustments, but there has been talk of Saudi procurement with the EJ series. At that time it was stated that the Engine manufacturers will do the necessary research for integration. So there are avenues which can be explored if for a newerfighter but fully agree that re engining of current fleet will not be cost effective.

 

[Trango Towers]

Fair enough. However till you show mother Russia something better you wont get the necessary improvements that you desire in the RD series.So the gist of my argument was with regard to getting improvements from vendors who currently supply PAF, ie Chinese or Russians.
I agree with you that it opens a new pandora's box with adjustments, but there has been talk of Saudi procurement with the EJ series. At that time it was stated that the Engine manufacturers will do the necessary research for integration. So there are avenues which can be explored if for a newerfighter but fully agree that re engining of current fleet will not be cost effective.

I didn't know about the Saudi EJ request.
With respect to geometry work I am sure even now they can put pressure on the russians to do more to fix the problem. Its not s if we are not buyingtheir engines in volume. 100 plus already and counting