JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Nomad40]

2-3 things are important.
where does he flying? what is his knowledge base about enemy BVR AAM? at what distance he is secure and what distance he you should maintain to keep out of danger.. when does he know he is been actually attacked..he must be getting radar warning chirps already. but not every warning is attack?

Do you know RWR can be jammed/unworkable as well. we have case studies from SAM System in 1973 War (SA-6) IDF/AF aircraft RWR were not warning her pilots about missile launched and targeted in homing SAMs because SAM were using the wartime modes which RWR were not recognizing hence zero warning...

so you situation awareness is everything!

as for your point regarding dive to save..well may be he can save himself ...but it will be mission kill for the opposite side.

By the way IAF Su-30MKI was shot down for sure..maneuvers learn or discuss will not change anything..i am certain as i have heard some authentic people discuss the ejection call from the pilot.

Yes situational awareness is key but we are talking Fighter to Fighter the most important factor of bvr fight is distance speed and height .

 

[TheTallGuy]

Yes situational awareness is key but we are talking Fighter to Fighter the most important factor of bvr fight is distance speed and height .

let say i am flying against a F-16MLU with AIM120C5 1 vs 1 i need to see him 1st and if i am flowing hot i have to make sure i am at 40k+ because he will be too. i have to make sure i am near mach 1 or over. if i got to him at around 40nm i should know that he has fired a AIM-120C5 head as none of my RWR systems will warn me till AIM-120C5 goes active. If i have something from which i can make a shot i have 25 seconds ...make a shot or if i dont have anything to shoot at him at distance ...i have to make a choice should i continue flowing hot and take my chance at 30nm but that would be hair raising as RWR will be hooting and i make shot at my D-Max 1 and then start my evasive maneuver of diving so if i dive early F-16MLU has mission kill as more low i go my missile ranges also decrease he will still have upper hand and i am effectively out of fight.

 

[krash]

Per one tv interview mb seat in k8 cost more thAn k8

Pretty sure that's not true.

These wings have a load bearing capacity
It's not like they can carry an elephant on each wing

The JF-17 can carry much heavier loads on its wing than a second SD-10. Hard-points 2 and 6 are rated to carry the LS-6 which is 500 Kg, the SD-10 is 180 Kg. It would be more about the structural strength at the position of the added hard-point. Pretty sure structural improvements/strengthening can be made/done if another hard-point is added between 2/6 and 1/7.

Ok !!!
But could you also let me know about what i was referring to ? I remember reading some news/articles about this particular situation as well.

Pretty sure we are beyond the times when a paint scheme on an aircraft could fool the opposing air force.

 

[StormBreaker]

Pretty sure that's not true.



The JF-17 can carry much heavier loads on its wing than a second SD-10. Hard-points 2 and 6 are rated to carry the LS-6 which is 500 Kg, the SD-10 is 180 Kg. It would be more about the structural strength at the position of the added hard-point. Pretty sure structural improvements/strengthening can be made/done if another hard-point is added between 2/6 and 1/7.



Pretty sure we are beyond the times when a paint scheme on an aircraft could fool the opposing air force.

Ohh, here it is

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-in-shark-scheme-to-mimic-latest-russian-jets

Not fooling the AF but those civilians on ground who can be fooled

 

[Nomad40]

let say i am flying against a F-16MLU with AIM120C5 1 vs 1 i need to see him 1st and if i am flowing hot i have to make sure i am at 40k+ because he will be too. i have to make sure i am near mach 1 or over. if i got to him at around 40nm i should know that he has fired a AIM-120C5 head as none of my RWR systems will warn me till AIM-120C5 goes active. If i have something from which i can make a shot i have 25 seconds ...make a shot or if i dont have anything to shoot at him at distance ...i have to make a choice should i continue flowing hot and take my chance at 30nm but that would be hair raising as RWR will be hooting and i make shot at my D-Max 1 and then start my evasive maneuver of diving so if i dive early F-16MLU has mission kill as more low i go my missile ranges also decrease he will still have upper hand and i am effectively out of fight.

TO follow the su-30 at 40K will be a mistake as one f-16 pilot knows that F-16 is not that good at high altitude and the su-30 has the upper hand at high altitude engagement but if we take a look at the R77-1 the missile is known to loft more than other bvram so technically the su will not fly at 40K (If the pilot knows his Missile) I dont want give much away but what if you are 1V1 against SU what is imminent that you will detect him first giving you some time, ASAP f-16 engages ab increase speed and climb to (do not chase at 40) continue to increase speed and pitbull and GTFO. Your launch speed will determine the speed of the missile as bvrs are not that fast after the burner flames out and if it maneuvers it bleed badly.

Pretty sure that's not true.


Okay guys I-am fed up with the ejection seat and k-8 cost comparison so here it is

The ejection seat is not that expensive it self expect around 45-60 K for the seat

The explosives used is EXPENSIVE around 40k and 70k

IN CONCLUSION
The ejection SEAT&EXPLOSIVE will cost you around 120k-150k possibly up to 165K. The one on the k8 is not more than 120k-150k (it depends how much you buy at one go) This is for the MK10 on the k-8

EXPLOSIVES NEED TO BE CHANGED EVERY 10 YEARS and NEED TO BE INSPECTED EVER 6 MONTHS

The k8 is around 10 million $ for 120-150 k you can buy a Cessna 182 mid 80's built or a new AMG benz

 

[khanasifm]

Pretty sure that's not true.



The JF-17 can carry much heavier loads on its wing than a second SD-10. Hard-points 2 and 6 are rated to carry the LS-6 which is 500 Kg, the SD-10 is 180 Kg. It would be more about the structural strength at the position of the added hard-point. Pretty sure structural improvements/strengthening can be made/done if another hard-point is added between 2/6 and 1/7.



Pretty sure we are beyond the times when a paint scheme on an aircraft could fool the opposing air force.

Pull up paf maahaz at pc academy it’s available on YouTube

 

[Thorough Pro]

Flares don't work on AMRAAM's


[QUOTE="JohnWick, post: 11997919, member: 192198"]Its a creative discussion and No offence to anyone at all....
Mki with his thrust vectoring And high flares deployment capacity can easily evade 1 or may be 2 AMRAAMS if it is in the hand of a capable pilot not like 27 Feb maroon and Mki with PESA radar and with AWACS support can deploy it's BVRs before AMRAAM....
It was no offence at all.... I was only saying that caring only 2 BVRs is not sufficient
It should be at least 4 and every wise person will agree with me.
As far as your question about having
4 BVRs....What do you think Lookheed Martin,Boeing,Dassualt Aviation,General Dynamics, and Sukhoi company are some kind of FOOLISH TO DESIGN jets capable of caring more than 4 damn BVRs???? or you are wise enough than them?
Again no offence I am as patriotic Pakistani as anyone else but When you able to understand that you will have your answer....[/QUOTE]

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan Account got hacked.

Hi,

No it did not---. Our differences were before the product in production---.

Now this is what we have and this is what we have fought a well defined clash---and with this we will be fighting our future battles with.

We have the much needed dual seater---so basically the first phase of the JF17 package is almost complete---ie with the maturity of the BLK2 and the production of 12 BLK B---. Once the BLK B is placed in service---we can say with confidence that the first phase of the project has been accomplished---.

Interestingly---the 2nd phase of the project---the BLK 3 was launched and un-veiled at the same time when the BLK B 1/2 sqdrn was displayed getting ready for flight checks and integration---.

 

[khanasifm]

Pull up paf maahaz at pc academy it’s available on YouTube

Check k-8 info and mb seat

 

[araz]

Its a creative discussion and No offence to anyone at all....
Mki with his thrust vectoring And high flares deployment capacity can easily evade 1 or may be 2 AMRAAMS if it is in the hand of a capable pilot not like 27 Feb maroon and Mki with PESA radar and with AWACS support can deploy it's BVRs before AMRAAM....
It was no offence at all.... I was only saying that caring only 2 BVRs is not sufficient
It should be at least 4 and every wise person will agree with me.
As far as your question about having
4 BVRs....What do you think Lookheed Martin,Boeing,Dassualt Aviation,General Dynamics, and Sukhoi company are some kind of FOOLISH TO DESIGN jets capable of caring more than 4 damn BVRs???? or you are wise enough than them?
Again no offence I am as patriotic Pakistani as anyone else but When you able to understand that you will have your answer....

Read my post again. It pertains to the logic of loadouts in the Indo Pak arena. The reason for higher loadouts on MKI and 15s is the theatre of war in which they operate. I cannot remember our 16s carrying a load out of more than 4+2 but if they have please do inform me. We are all out here to learn and I could be wrong so no offence taken. We are not into creative discussions but trying to learn the logic of what can be or has been achieved on the JFT and the reasons for it.
Your assertions about the MKI were proven wrong. If PAF are to be believed only 2 AMRAAMS were fired and secured 2 hits. The war has now taken on newer dimensions and it is no longer a plane vs plane but a system vs system confrontation which the 70s designed MKI and other fighters were not designned for. To further reinforce my POW look at the load out of F22/35. Why do you think it is what it is. War is changing and its demands are changing. All EU fighters in addition were designed for long loitering times which is not going to be the case in the INDO PAK arena due to the short distance between FOBs.
A

And why do u not think it was a single shot kill..

The pilot in television interview said 2 orders were given 2 shots were fired 2 aircraft went down .. 7 others were locked clearance never came


Any ways I am for 4 BVRs and that is coming soon..

I simply think any more shud be a waste of effort and time but I m no expert and do feel free to disagree

I had a discussion with @Muradk a long time ago and he also said that generally you fire 2BVR a few seconds apart. First to get your enemy into a defensive position possibly doing evasive maneouvres and sevond for the real kill. Things must have changed as people like @Bilal Khan 777 are talking about single shot for a kill. May have to do with the quality of the BVRs or change in engagement rules or perhaps other factors.
A

 

[Sine Nomine]

Trust me I only talk about what I know, can you tell me what are the distances of different shoot ques, how a BVR missile works, what is lofting, how many G can a bvr (120C) pull, Inertia vectors for the missile. Sir do you even know how close do you have to get to achieve a 99.99% kill ratio on the sd-10 and aim-120, sir can you tell me how long a rocket on an Aim-120 burns?. If not than I would actually be very very happy to discuss with my fellow Pakistani brothers to the best of my knowledge and ability and I would love the input of members because Iam no expert I am simply stating my opinions which if some one feels not accurate can respectfully deny and correct me.

Loose lips sink ships.

Any idea what would be the RCS of such a sukhoi with a loadout of 10 BVR/WVR and 3 drop tanks??? It would be a ringside view for the rival fighters & AWACS hundreds of miles away.

It's 20.0 m^2 with full load.

 

[Mig hunter]

NEVER BVR firing is a game of hide and seek it is a game of speed & distance there are 5 processes that go to get missile off the rack and onto the target, The first shot is almost always to make the opponent go Defensive which is at a distance the 2nd and even sometimes 3rd shot is required to neutralize the target,that is of-course you shoot first and haven't been shot down by his buddy/missile yet.

Yep and by that time when AC that is on defensive will wait for 2nd and third missile to be fired at.. Hilarious
The AC that is being fired upon will eventually escape if the fist missile is fired to get him into defensive.
Moreover, BVR missile is fired in its no escape zone which is stated to be between 50 to 70 km approx for different Modern BVR missiles. Firing beyond these ranges mean in literal terms nothing.
U really have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Yep and by that time when AC that is on defensive will wait for 2nd and third missile to be fired at.. Hilarious
The AC that is being fired upon will eventually escape if the fist missile is fired to get him into defensive.
Moreover, BVR missile is fired in its no escape zone which is stated to be between 50 to 70 km approx for different Modern BVR missiles. Firing beyond these ranges mean in literal terms nothing.
U really have no idea what you are talking about

No pilot will fire only one shot and wait to see if it hit or not. At least 2 missiles are shot even in no escape zone.

 

[Armchair]

Since its Q&A for everybody and you seems to know..so here it goes what i have gathered from forum.

Q1.can you tell me what are the distances of different shoot ques?
Higher you are more range you have..
Q2.how a BVR missile works?
Detection in TWS, Dmax1 launch via INS, the BVR Missiles goes pitbull meaning Active. there is also the option guide it all the way to the target.
Q3.what is lofting?
this is point in engagement where where you climb increase your AOA to Launch a BVR missile meaning if you are a 33k point your nose up and fire...missile is lofted and since air is thin you extract more range out of missile.
Q4.how many G can a bvr (120C) pull?
Now thats a tough question because you did not state the altitude? but since its open ended question so answer is open ended 50+ Gs
Q5.Inertia vectors for the missile
As i stated INS fed through TWS mode.
Q6.Sir do you even know how close do you have to get to achieve a 99.99% kill ratio on the sd-10 and aim-120?
we have example of 4nm in that distance SD10 or AIM120C does have 99.99% kill ratio.
Q7.sir can you tell me how long a rocket on an Aim-120 burns?
we have example of 22 second flight time from launch to hit so give or take 10 second..

@airomerix

I don't think you will ever admit being former PAF but I called you out first just for the record.

Between still believe your 27th kill score? I give you the benefit of my doubt.

 

[TheTallGuy]

I don't think you will ever admit being former PAF but I called you out first just for the record.

Between still believe your 27th kill score? I give you the benefit of my doubt.

No brother...i just watch Youtube videos of DCS JF17

Between still believe your 27th kill score? I give you the benefit of my doubt.

It should have been 8 excluding 1 x helicopter...but PAF says 2 in 2 so..you cant fight state do you..wreckage & that its been 158 days....everything is closed.