JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Nomad40]

Mki with his thrust vectoring And high flares deployment capacity can easily evade 1 or may be 2 AMRAAMS if it is in the hand of a capable pilot not like 27 Feb maroon and Mki with PESA radar and with AWACS support can deploy it's BVRs before AMRAAM....
It was no offence at all.... I was only saying that caring only 2 BVRs is not sufficient
It should be at least 4 and every wise person will agree with me.
As far as your your question about having
4 BVRs....What do you Lookheed Martin,
Boeing,Dassualt Aviation,General Dynamics, and Sukhoi company are some kind of
FOOLISH TO DESIGN gets capable of caring more than 4 damn BVRs???? or you are wise enough them?
Again no offence I am as patriotic Pakistani as anyone else but When you able to understand that you will have your answer....

BUDDY THRUST VECTORING WILL KILL YOU IN A HEART BEAT AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THE WAY TO BEAT BVR IS.......... WELL NOW I DONT WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS BECAUSE I SAID IT 3 TIMES. BTW what is your occupation.

Well I know of 2 confirmed single shot long distance ones .. In Feb last year .. I one was a sukhoi and other one was mig 21

I dont think sukohi was a single shot kill but mg 21 has a high probability that is, because MIG was extremely close, when you come close your chances of dying increase. Each kilometer you travel closer to the Shooter your kill probability increase by 50+1.82% assuming your missile is capable of hitting a target with a kill aspect of 50% against a fighter type high g aircraft INRNG Que (MAX range).

 

[JohnWick]

BUDDY THRUST VECTORING WILL KILL YOU IN A HEART BEAT AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THE WAY TO BEAT BVR IS.......... WELL NOW I DONT WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS BECAUSE I SAID IT 3 TIMES. BTW what is your occupation.


I dont think sukohi was a single shot kill but mg 21 has a high probability that is, because MIG was extremely close, when you come close your chances of dying increase. Each kilometer you travel closer to the Shooter your kill probability increase by 50+1.82% assuming your missile is capable of hitting a target with a kill aspect of 50% against a fighter type high g aircraft INRNG Que (MAX range).

Here people are anonymously but as a hint I belong to the occupation which was attacked by an other occupation some time ago...

 

[Mrc]

BUDDY THRUST VECTORING WILL KILL YOU IN A HEART BEAT AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THE WAY TO BEAT BVR IS.......... WELL NOW I DONT WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS BECAUSE I SAID IT 3 TIMES. BTW what is your occupation.


I dont think sukohi was a single shot kill but mg 21 has a high probability that is, because MIG was extremely close, when you come close your chances of dying increase. Each kilometer you travel closer to the Shooter your kill probability increase by 50+1.82% assuming your missile is capable of hitting a target with a kill aspect of 50% against a fighter type high g aircraft INRNG Que (MAX range).

And why do u not think it was a single shot kill..

The pilot in television interview said 2 orders were given 2 shots were fired 2 aircraft went down .. 7 others were locked clearance never came


Any ways I am for 4 BVRs and that is coming soon..

I simply think any more shud be a waste of effort and time but I m no expert and do feel free to disagree

 

[Nomad40]

And why do u not think it was a single shot kill..

The pilot in television interview said 2 orders were given 2 shots were fired 2 aircraft went down .. 7 others were locked clearance never came


Any ways I am for 4 BVRs and that is coming soon..

I simply think any more shud be a waste of effort and time but I m no expert and do feel free to disagree

yes as you get closer you kill probability increase know it was bad luck or something for the su-30 or simply his big *** was to too close (under50 km) and he died but a mig 21 type can be easily killed up to ranges of (65+km) the higher end ranges are for slower moving or less maneuverable air craft. This will not always be the scenario of 1 shot one kill because fighters attack in waves and formation. you get as close as you can with a moderate threat range you shoot, you FULL AB, you DIVE when you feel safe and no missile following you Recommit if necessary.

Here people are anonymously but as a hint I belong to the occupation which was attacked by an other occupation some time ago...

Nice
چائے لاجواب تھی

 

[pkd]

Its a creative discussion and No offence to anyone at all....
Mki with his thrust vectoring And high flares deployment capacity can easily evade 1 or may be 2 AMRAAMS if it is in the hand of a capable pilot not like 27 Feb maroon and Mki with PESA radar and with AWACS support can deploy it's BVRs before AMRAAM....
It was no offence at all.... I was only saying that caring only 2 BVRs is not sufficient
It should be at least 4 and every wise person will agree with me.
As far as your question about having
4 BVRs....What do you Lookheed Martin,
Boeing,Dassualt Aviation,General Dynamics, and Sukhoi company are some kind of
FOOLISH TO DESIGN gets capable of caring more than 4 damn BVRs???? or you are wise enough than them?
Again no offence I am as patriotic Pakistani as anyone else but When you able to understand that you will have your answer....

Any idea what would be the RCS of such a sukhoi with a loadout of 10 BVR/WVR and 3 drop tanks??? It would be a ringside view for the rival fighters & AWACS hundreds of miles away.

 

[Nomad40]

Any idea what would be the RCS of such a sukhoi with a loadout of 10 BVR/WVR and 3 drop tanks??? It would be a ringside view for the rival fighters & AWACS hundreds of miles away.

Let me give you an example the rcs of such an su would be the fattest male person in a all female gym.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

A contemporary air battle is not a game of endurance or strength rather smarts and speed, you shoot and you leave the area, let the enemy with two dozen weapons hanging under his wings evade or dodge the incoming messengers of death.

And, better still you put the enemy where you want him to be!! And, then set the highly skilled, intelligent, stealthy and loyal "greyhounds*", trained by yourself, on the "prey" with a simple instruction like "kill"...

*Supersonic combat UAVs built and armed in your image

 

[TheTallGuy]

Trust me I only talk about what I know, can you tell me what are the distances of different shoot ques, how a BVR missile works, what is lofting, how many G can a bvr (120C) pull, Inertia vectors for the missile. Sir do you even know how close do you have to get to achieve a 99.99% kill ratio on the sd-10 and aim-120, sir can you tell me how long a rocket on an Aim-120 burns?. If not than I would actually be very very happy to discuss with my fellow Pakistani brothers to the best of my knowledge and ability and I would love the input of members because Iam no expert I am simply stating my opinions which if some one feels not accurate can respectfully deny and correct me.

Since its Q&A for everybody and you seems to know..so here it goes what i have gathered from forum.

Q1.can you tell me what are the distances of different shoot ques?
Higher you are more range you have..
Q2.how a BVR missile works?
Detection in TWS, Dmax1 launch via INS, the BVR Missiles goes pitbull meaning Active. there is also the option guide it all the way to the target.
Q3.what is lofting?
this is point in engagement where where you climb increase your AOA to Launch a BVR missile meaning if you are a 33k point your nose up and fire...missile is lofted and since air is thin you extract more range out of missile.
Q4.how many G can a bvr (120C) pull?
Now thats a tough question because you did not state the altitude? but since its open ended question so answer is open ended 50+ Gs
Q5.Inertia vectors for the missile
As i stated INS fed through TWS mode.
Q6.Sir do you even know how close do you have to get to achieve a 99.99% kill ratio on the sd-10 and aim-120?
we have example of 4nm in that distance SD10 or AIM120C does have 99.99% kill ratio.
Q7.sir can you tell me how long a rocket on an Aim-120 burns?
we have example of 22 second flight time from launch to hit so give or take 10 second..

@airomerix

 

[Mrc]

I m guessing 4 BVRs and 2WVRs

 

[Nomad40]

Since its Q&A for everybody and you seems to know..so here it goes what i have gathered from forum.

Q1.can you tell me what are the distances of different shoot ques?
Higher you are more range you have..
Q2.how a BVR missile works?
Detection in TWS, Dmax1 launch via INS, the BVR Missiles goes pitbull meaning Active. there is also the option guide it all the way to the target.
Q3.what is lofting?
this is point in engagement where where you climb increase your AOA to Launch a BVR missile meaning if you are a 33k point your nose up and fire...missile is lofted and since air is thin you extract more range out of missile.
Q4.how many G can a bvr (120C) pull?
Now thats a tough question because you did not state the altitude? but since its open ended question so answer is open ended 50+ Gs
Q5.Inertia vectors for the missile
As i stated INS fed through TWS mode.
Q6.Sir do you even know how close do you have to get to achieve a 99.99% kill ratio on the sd-10 and aim-120?
we have example of 4nm in that distance SD10 or AIM120C does have 99.99% kill ratio.
Q7.sir can you tell me how long a rocket on an Aim-120 burns?
we have example of 22 second flight time from launch to hit so give or take 10 second..

@airomerix

Seems you have gathered pretty good data I would like to add some thing's before I double check my calculation for the range(assumption) and also would like to add on to the speed and distance factor and also how many g the missile needs by an aircraft to defeat (depends on the impact distance). This info is what we need to understand no Pilot will ever shoot BVR at max range or long range and expect 99.99% kill.

Is there any way this can be distributed across the forum.

BTW do we still use Pitbull for bvr I thought we stopped those at WVR.

 

[StormBreaker]

View attachment 598325


I m guessing 4 BVRs and 2WVRs

This pic lacks the dual racks and center hp is empty. No drop tanks as well. So nothing surprising here, moreover, this pic should have had 5 BVRs and 2 WVRs since no drop tanks

 

[Nomad40]

This pic lacks the dual racks and center hp is empty. No drop tanks as well. So nothing surprising here, moreover, this pic should have had 5 BVRs and 2 WVRs since no drop tanks

why 5

 

[TheTallGuy]

Seems you have gathered pretty good data I would like to add some thing's before I double check my calculation for the range(assumption) and also would like to add on to the speed and distance factor and also how many g the missile needs by an aircraft to defeat (depends on the impact distance). This info is what we need to understand no Pilot will ever shoot BVR at max range or long range and expect 99.99% kill.

Is there any way this can be distributed across the forum.

BTW do we still use Pitbull for bvr I thought we stopped those at WVR.

what i think if target in not maneuvering i mean flying at combat speed 1 x BVR shot would be enough because at missile at Mach 3 or Mach 4 will not give him chance he only has 8-9 second warning..even if he maneuvers hard he looses speed (MKI case TVC) he basically became stationery for AIM-120C. although if he had dived down from altitude at supersonic speeds he would have survived 1st shot. but this not 1 vs 1 this combined system vs Combined Systems so degraded communication and degraded Radar capacity also plays a role.

last time i heard "Brevity code" has not change for AIM120C

 

[Nomad40]

what i think if target in not maneuvering i mean flying at combat speed 1 x BVR shot would be enough because at missile at Mach 3 or Mach 4 will not give him chance he only has 8-9 second warning..even if he maneuvers hard he looses speed (MKI case TVC) he basically became stationery for AIM-120C. although if he had dived down from altitude at supersonic speeds he would have survived 1st shot. but this not 1 vs 1 this combined system vs Combined Systems so degraded communication and degraded Radar capacity also plays a role.

last time i heard "Brevity code" has not change for AIM120C

True but lets say the su pilot is not a complete idiot and decides to punch takes and engage mill power and dives like GANGA the out come would be very very different at 65km+ ranges. withing 40km- he is most likely dead.

 

[TheTallGuy]

True but lets say the su pilot is not a complete idiot and decides to punch takes and engage mill power and dives like GANGA the out come would be very very different at 65km+ ranges. withing 40km- he is most likely dead.

2-3 things are important.
where does he flying? what is his knowledge base about enemy BVR AAM? at what distance he is secure and what distance he you should maintain to keep out of danger.. when does he know he is been actually attacked..he must be getting radar warning chirps already. but not every warning is attack?

Do you know RWR can be jammed/unworkable as well. we have case studies from SAM System in 1973 War (SA-6) IDF/AF aircraft RWR were not warning her pilots about missile launched and targeted in homing SAMs because SAM were using the wartime modes which RWR were not recognizing hence zero warning...

so you situation awareness is everything!

as for your point regarding dive to save..well may be he can save himself ...but it will be mission kill for the opposite side.

By the way IAF Su-30MKI was shot down for sure..maneuvers learn or discuss will not change anything..i am certain as i have heard some authentic people discuss the ejection call from the pilot.