JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Ultima Thule]

The point of my post that you missed in your misguided zeal to make the Raffle greater than what it actually is, is that unless the measurement data are INDEPENDENTLY done, there is little to no credibility to any claim made by anyone, and that includes US.

I do not care if France has all the facilities comparable to US. Unless Lockheed or Dassault make public their testing methodologies and criteria, their claims should not be taken at face values.

That said...

The reason why US claims are relevant is because US 'stealth' platforms actually have combat experience. No one else does. SPECTRA is essentially unknown. Yes, we can be sure that Dassault performed many testing regimes, but I speak from experience as a radar field test designer of 'autonomous low altitude unmanned aerial vehicles', aka 'drones', that unless I see Dassault's testing regimes, I cannot in good professional conscience accepts everything Dassault says. Same goes for Lockheed or Northrop. Once in my civilian life, I designed field tests to detect drones and for drones to evade radars. I worked both sides of the EW fence.

But from the same professional experience, I absolutely understand the need for secrecy. If you know the testing regimes, you can make educated guesses all the way down to how the device was designed and built, whether that device is a computer chip or a jet fighter. That is why Lockheed, Northrop, and Dassault will say no more outside of PR releases. I do not need to see the math or the electronics. Show me the testing regimes and I will find the appropriate specialists to extrapolate further.

For example...

Now that we know that an EM anechoic chamber was used to design the F-22 or test the SPECTRA suite, we can extrapolate that every structure on the F-22 will be precisely measured as to its EM output. I can make full scale models of the F-22 with a variety of materials and test those models with my own facility. So just from the single knowledge that an EM anechoic chamber was used, already I learned much about the F-22 and its potential RCS.

SPECTRA is at best a band-aid solution to an unsatisfied need to create a peer to the US 'stealth' platforms. If there is a transmission, as SPECTRA is an active method, it WILL be ID-ed out.

It is actually very difficult to make out the dog's OUTLINES. You have to focus at every line and curve.

What SPECTRA attempts to do is like the dog produces real time on the fly each dot, hoping that the observers will not notice the changes happening. Or like the octopus as it moves from one background to the next.

News for you: Ain't.

We WILL notice and by 'we', I mean the F-22 and F-35.

it useless sir @gambit sir, you're smashing your head on the wall sir, @randomradio insisted his crap/blind patriotism and insisted his crap that RAFALE is better than F22, F_35 in the term of electronics/avionics/ and in VLO designs @gambit sir

 

[ziaulislam]

it useless sir @gambit sir, you're smashing your head on the wall sir, @randomradio insisted his crap/blind patriotism and insisted his crap that RAFALE is better than F22, F_35 in the term of electronics/avionics/ and in VLO designs @gambit sir

whatever india buys is better be it su30MKI, rafale or even the vintage mig21

 

[randomradio]

The point of my post that you missed in your misguided zeal to make the Raffle greater than what it actually is, is that unless the measurement data are INDEPENDENTLY done, there is little to no credibility to any claim made by anyone, and that includes US.

I do not care if France has all the facilities comparable to US. Unless Lockheed or Dassault make public their testing methodologies and criteria, their claims should not be taken at face values.

That said...

The reason why US claims are relevant is because US 'stealth' platforms actually have combat experience. No one else does. SPECTRA is essentially unknown. Yes, we can be sure that Dassault performed many testing regimes, but I speak from experience as a radar field test designer of 'autonomous low altitude unmanned aerial vehicles', aka 'drones', that unless I see Dassault's testing regimes, I cannot in good professional conscience accepts everything Dassault says. Same goes for Lockheed or Northrop. Once in my civilian life, I designed field tests to detect drones and for drones to evade radars. I worked both sides of the EW fence.

But from the same professional experience, I absolutely understand the need for secrecy. If you know the testing regimes, you can make educated guesses all the way down to how the device was designed and built, whether that device is a computer chip or a jet fighter. That is why Lockheed, Northrop, and Dassault will say no more outside of PR releases. I do not need to see the math or the electronics. Show me the testing regimes and I will find the appropriate specialists to extrapolate further.

For example...

Now that we know that an EM anechoic chamber was used to design the F-22 or test the SPECTRA suite, we can extrapolate that every structure on the F-22 will be precisely measured as to its EM output. I can make full scale models of the F-22 with a variety of materials and test those models with my own facility. So just from the single knowledge that an EM anechoic chamber was used, already I learned much about the F-22 and its potential RCS.

SPECTRA is at best a band-aid solution to an unsatisfied need to create a peer to the US 'stealth' platforms. If there is a transmission, as SPECTRA is an active method, it WILL be ID-ed out.

It is actually very difficult to make out the dog's OUTLINES. You have to focus at every line and curve.

What SPECTRA attempts to do is like the dog produces real time on the fly each dot, hoping that the observers will not notice the changes happening. Or like the octopus as it moves from one background to the next.

The reason why I believe them is simply because I know one of them personally, and I got it verified from Indian sources also, including publicly by an Air Marshal. At first I did not believe the veracity of the claims they made either.

As for the Rafale's combat experience, they entered Libya without SEAD conducted. Their first mission included taking out tanks, not SAMs, but tanks. The US wasn't happy that the French had proceeded with strike missions without conducting SEAD/DEAD first.

News for you: Ain't.

We WILL notice and by 'we', I mean the F-22 and F-35.

Also with the dog analogy, you got the concept wrong. The Spectra isn't a camouflage system, it's not trying to simply blend into the background, your F-22 does that. The idea is not to make new dots, it's to make holes. So the Rafale's airframe design concentrates signals into a few strong spikes, particularly at the canard edges, and then cancels those spikes. So the two powerful "dots" on your radar become holes, and the Rafale goes stealth. Spectra is akin to a CIWS shooting down the bullets made of signals. That's a more apt analogy.

A Spectra that is 100% effective will reduce the Rafale's RCS to 0, ie, completely invisible.

And the Rafale's stealth enhancement program was called DEDIRA, where the letters DI mean Discreet. So they even had a publicly funded and well-known program to make Rafale stealthy. They even had plans of making weapons pods. But the Spectra alone was so effective that they cancelled the pods.

SPECTRA is at best a band-aid solution to an unsatisfied need to create a peer to the US 'stealth' platforms.

I pointed this out too. But the reply was good. They achieved F-22 level stealth using electronics alone, and at a price point that is so affordable that it is as cheap to operate as the F-16.

So granted that the F-22's design specs are optimal for low RCS. The French did not go for shaping because they intended to match the F-22's stealth using electronics means alone at much lower costs, and they succeeded. But imagine what the F-22 can do with a Spectra type system. So their next objective is to combine a shaped airframe with Spectra.

Anyway, the reason why I know all this is because I was told this by people in this business. And people like you do not know this because this level of stealth in particular was achieved only recently, like 2 years ago or so, and you did not have access to a source. No different from how you do not know about the capabilities of digital antennas. So you will have to wait for this information to become public knowledge. Before 2 or 3 years ago, the Rafale was still RO with weapons, not VLO with weapons.

It's a very, very recent advancement.

If there is a transmission, as SPECTRA is an active method, it WILL be ID-ed out.

This bit. If Spectra works properly, you are not gonna get anything back. It's pure destructive interference, so no amplitude in the signal. How are you going to ID something that has no amplitude?

 

[Ultima Thule]

A Spectra that is 100% effective will reduce the Rafale's RCS to 0, ie, completely invisible.

do you what is the RCS means @randomradio ??? every things on earth has a RCS even snails, leaches,ants have RCS in mm though, so can 50 feet object to become invisible to multiple radar from diferent locations/angles, different frequencies and how you completely hide IR signature of the jet, because of it natural thing, you can hide the jet completely from IR/Radar signature and spectra has own limatations, your jet lit by let say 50 radars, do spectra doesn't mean to send false signals to all those 50 radars @randomradio

 

[Goku-kun]

The reason why I believe them is simply because I know one of them personally, and I got it verified from Indian sources also, including publicly by an Air Marshal. At first I did not believe the veracity of the claims they made either.

As for the Rafale's combat experience, they entered Libya without SEAD conducted. Their first mission included taking out tanks, not SAMs, but tanks. The US wasn't happy that the French had proceeded with strike missions without conducting SEAD/DEAD first.



Also with the dog analogy, you got the concept wrong. The Spectra isn't a camouflage system, it's not trying to simply blend into the background, your F-22 does that. The idea is not to make new dots, it's to make holes. So the Rafale's airframe design concentrates signals into a few strong spikes, particularly at the canard edges, and then cancels those spikes. So the two powerful "dots" on your radar become holes, and the Rafale goes stealth. Spectra is akin to a CIWS shooting down the bullets made of signals. That's a more apt analogy.

A Spectra that is 100% effective will reduce the Rafale's RCS to 0, ie, completely invisible.

And the Rafale's stealth enhancement program was called DEDIRA, where the letters DI mean Discreet. So they even had a publicly funded and well-known program to make Rafale stealthy. They even had plans of making weapons pods. But the Spectra alone was so effective that they cancelled the pods.



I pointed this out too. But the reply was good. They achieved F-22 level stealth using electronics alone, and at a price point that is so affordable that it is as cheap to operate as the F-16.

So granted that the F-22's design specs are optimal for low RCS. The French did not go for shaping because they intended to match the F-22's stealth using electronics means alone at much lower costs, and they succeeded. But imagine what the F-22 can do with a Spectra type system. So their next objective is to combine a shaped airframe with Spectra.

Anyway, the reason why I know all this is because I was told this by people in this business. And people like you do not know this because this level of stealth in particular was achieved only recently, like 2 years ago or so, and you did not have access to a source. No different from how you do not know about the capabilities of digital antennas. So you will have to wait for this information to become public knowledge. Before 2 or 3 years ago, the Rafale was still RO with weapons, not VLO with weapons.

It's a very, very recent advancement.



This bit. If Spectra works properly, you are not gonna get anything back. It's pure destructive interference, so no amplitude in the signal. How are you going to ID something that has no amplitude?

lets get to some common points which prove hat if a jet is stealthy or not..
length:15.27m
(the bigger the length of a jet the more chances of being caught on a radar)
and has 14 hard points too which will increase its RCS..
JF-17's length is shorter than rafale's and same goes for f-16..

now the second point is that stealthy jets avoid circular surfaces because circular surfaces decrease their stealth capability but rafale seems to possess even that and j-20 seems not to possess this or design should i say..
so there is no point of rafale being more stealthy than j-20 but i can see that you are trying to be over-smart..

So the Rafale's airframe design concentrates signals into a few strong spikes, particularly at the canard edges, and then cancels those spikes. So the two powerful "dots" on your radar become holes, and the Rafale goes stealth.

and who told you this?
don't tell me that you are the president of dassault aviation

 

[randomradio]

whatever india buys is better be it su30MKI, rafale or even the vintage mig21

Isn't it natural? Why is this so strange not to believe?

When the MKI was introduced, it was the best aircraft in the world, although it held the rank briefly until the F-22 showed up. It was the best Russian fighter aircraft available for at least 10 years.

Rafale, naturally, it was chosen over all available competitors.

As for Mig-21, it is the only 2nd generation fighter jet with a high end radar, BVR weapon, radar and HMDS-cued WVR weapon, RCS treatment, an advanced EW suite, PGM capability and an engine that provided a 30% bump thrust for combat. No aircraft in the world today even comes close to such a thrust boost and it puts even the F-22 to shame when it comes to TWR. Its TWR with the bump thrust was 1.3:1. At least bring your JF-17 up to spec first before talking smack about the Mig-21.

You will be lucky to keep up with even our least capable aircraft.

 

[Ultima Thule]

lets get to some common points which prove hat if a jet is stealthy or not..
length:15.27m
(the bigger the length of a jet the more chances of being caught on a radar)
and has 14 hard points too which will increase its RCS..
JF-17's length is shorter than rafale's and same goes for f-16..

now the second point is that stealthy jets avoid circular surfaces because circular surfaces decrease their stealth capability but rafale seems to possess even that and j-20 seems not to possess this or design should i say..
so there is no point of rafale being more stealthy than j-20 but i can see that you are trying to be over-smart..

no yaar your this part is totally wrong
now the second point is that stealthy jets avoid circular surfaces because circular surfaces decrease their stealth capability

stealth fighters uses as much as carved (round/circular surfaces) to avoid detection, but should be avoid 90 degree angles as much as possible like vertical tails etc etc @Goku-kun

 

[Goku-kun]

no yaar your this part is totally wrong
now the second point is that stealthy jets avoid circular surfaces because circular surfaces decrease their stealth capability

stealth fighters uses as much as carved (round/circular surfaces) to avoid detection, but should be avoid 90 degree angles as much as possible like vertical tails etc etc @Goku-kun

i can see less curved surfaces here:

 

[ziaulislam]

Isn't it natural? Why is this so strange not to believe?

When the MKI was introduced, it was the best aircraft in the world, although it held the rank briefly until the F-22 showed up. It was the best Russian fighter aircraft available for at least 10 years.

Rafale, naturally, it was chosen over all available competitors.

As for Mig-21, it is the only 2nd generation fighter jet with a high end radar, BVR weapon, radar and HMDS-cued WVR weapon, RCS treatment, an advanced EW suite, PGM capability and an engine that provided a 30% bump thrust for combat. No aircraft in the world today even comes close to such a thrust boost and it puts even the F-22 to shame when it comes to TWR. Its TWR with the bump thrust was 1.3:1. At least bring your JF-17 up to spec first before talking smack about the Mig-21.

You will be lucky to keep up with even our least capable aircraft.

Can I get some of the weed you have

 

[Ultima Thule]

i can see less curved surfaces here:
View attachment 482348

i am not talking longitudinally as a whole plan-forms of the these jets bro, look the side of the middle fuselages for both of the jet, they have angle middle fuselage, corner reflectors (90 degree vertical) should be avoided for stealth, 90 degree increases surface area of the jets for radars @Goku-kun you should do research on stealth before you post @Goku-kun

 

[khanasifm]

This is jf thread take other topics to respective threads

 

[denel]

Nope. The MKI undergoes upgrades every few years. Only last year, 1 squadron received over 300 new upgrades.

A lot of upgrades, like doubling Bars range, are retrofit upgrades.

MKI recently received a major EW upgrade also. And these upgrades start off with the Pune squadrons first.

We have setup two lines that will allow overhaul and upgrades of 30 jets a year.



The Pune based Jags have radars, the other Jags don't.



Even with such an RCS, the F-15C continued to hold a BVR advantage over the F-16C.

And you have no clue about the MKI since you don't even know they undergo individual upgrades.



Now re-read this post.



People typically run away when confronted with facts. You are no different.



You think we have no idea what the Swedes are doing, especially after MMRCA? You do realise Gripen competed with the Rafale in India and did not even get shortlisted right?

I know and understand that the Swedes have some of the best technologies, but my contacts have been some of the top people within the European industry, including a serving Brigadier General in the French Air Force. I pointed out pretty much the same thing you did. They told me they are ahead, that's good enough to me.

The Swedes offered us GaN technology that was inferior to what we are making in India, so that was funny.

It is ok friend no worries, when you had to buy our casspirs for Kashmir, given you had enormous resources of Tata says it all. Contacts or no contacts, did YOU work in this field for 15+years as an specialist R&D engineer on comms/EW hand in hand with Elta/Saab? Then please come and present your welcome thoughts vs tea room contact hear say that Indian people love to chatter.

For the French, one word sums it up nicely. Corruption. They are masters as buying. We know French for centuries in our continent and their tactics; they will sell water as cure for cancer and said it has been passed by Napoleon - pardon my pun.

It is fine, every one to gloat on their own - It is funny - do you know your Navy's installations in the Andaman islands are using my hf designed antennas for the past 8 years.

Can I get some of the weed you have

Come here will be happy to serve some great Mampoer. It will make everyone see pink elephants - and that is not a joke . Lesotho gold is one of the best i am told; not sure he may be using some mix of mushrooms.

agh it is ok pal, empty pails sound loudest is the saying here.

Let us toast witblitz and be merry with some good braai meat.

 

[ziaulislam]

It is ok friend no worries, when you had to buy our casspirs for Kashmir, given you had enormous resources of Tata says it all. Contacts or no contacts, did YOU work in this field for 15+years as an specialist R&D engineer on comms/EW hand in hand with Elta/Saab? Then please come and present your welcome thoughts vs tea room contact hear say that Indian people love to chatter.

For the French, one word sums it up nicely. Corruption. They are masters as buying. We know French for centuries in our continent and their tactics; they will sell water as cure for cancer and said it has been passed by Napoleon - pardon my pun.

It is fine, every one to gloat on their own - It is funny - do you know your Navy's installations in the Andaman islands are using my hf designed antennas for the past 8 years.


Come here will be happy to serve some great Mampoer. It will make everyone see pink elephants - and that is not a joke . Lesotho gold is one of the best i am told; not sure he may be using some mix of mushrooms.

agh it is ok pal, empty pails sound loudest is the saying here.

Let us toast witblitz and be merry with some good braai meat.

this amount of gloating on vintage mig21 is not done by any sane person..one exception is if someone is high or drunk..see them all the time in ED

 

[Goku-kun]

i am not talking longitudinally as a whole plan-forms of the these jets bro, look the side of the middle fuselages for both of the jet, they have angle middle fuselage, corner reflectors (90 degree vertical) should be avoided for stealth, 90 degree increases surface area of the jets for radars @Goku-kun you should do research on stealth before you post @Goku-kun

i'll not argue you because you are senior and maybe i don't know most of the things..

 

[Ultima Thule]

i'll not argue you because you are senior and maybe i don't know most of the things..

feel free to argue bro we both here to learn Bro @Goku-kun