JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[ziaulislam]

no! no! it's tegas which is better than f-22 raptor..lol..

No we don't attack u personally nor ur posts. We just ask for proof for ur outlandish claims, which u consistently fail to provide. Like for example u were just claiming that Su30MKI has been super duper stealthed up and its RCS is very low and yet no proof provided bcuz "it's classified" but somehow u know about it
...how was it that u put it instead of providing proof for ur claims? Oh yes..."if u know where to look"

And then u list the RCS of Su35...which India doesn't even have and expect us to somehow believe that just bcuz Russia has lowered the RCS of Su35...we should believe without any evidence that India has also done that with Su30MKI.

Or how about ur claim that IAF has the intel on RCS of PAF fighter jets and PAF doesn't have intel on RCS of IAF jets...again without proof. Instead just an idiotic claim that bcuz India's super duper stealthy Su30MKI are positioned deep inside India and therefore we should believe ur idiotic crap.

The best of all being ur claims about IAF knowing the RCS of J20 and that's bcuz IAF detected it. Then when a Chinese member said that China flies J20 with the luneburg lens to hide its true RCS. U come back with a picture of IAF jet flying with F22 with a luneburg lens to show that IAF knows what a luneburg lens is...and yet u didn't realize that u contradicted ur own previous idiotic claim. As in that detection of J20(that u claimed), which u thought was due to some lack of stealthiness of J20 could've just been due to the fact that the J20 was deliberately using a luneburg lens

This is why u nor ur claims are taken seriously here. Most ppl have the sense to not engage ur idiotic posts...those who are engaging u are blowing ur claims to bits and u r not clever enough to realize that.

Though I have a feeling u r gonna continue believing ur crap of how India is going to have a better stealth fighter than the F22...and how J20 sucks and Rafale is the best aircraft in the world beating even F35 and F22...etc. Carry on with ur delusions

look , RCS has nothing to do with 4th gen jets, we need to understand this much...
this is because the 4.5 gen jets radars have matured to such a level that no matter what you do detection range will be >150km, the optimum range for BVR weapons is 25kms with maximum range in best conditions in targets moving towards each other is around 100km

so BVR weapons really count in less than 25(new ram jets ~50 km range), thus only a 5th gen fighter will be bale to remain stealthy, even with stronger radars that is becoming difficult..so i am not sure why is this discussion even brought up by indians..

other thing that is curious, is the same su30 is deadly beast in IAF but flying coffin equivalent in PLAAF....

 

[Ultima Thule]

So you're saying a USAF General has openly lied to the US Congress? 20 year jail sentence right there.

to whom you twit/ brain fart/ delusional @randomradio

 

[randomradio]

Lol...
No u have not provided proof. I want actual data not mere words of that guy u quoted who claimed Rafale was the best jet in the world or ur picture of a Luneburg's lens on an F22.

Dhanoa's words are proof enough.

And before u say that u can't provide the data requested above bcuz it's classified...to this I will say...well then if it's classified for the rest of us, how did u get ur hands on it? Do u simultaneously work for CAC(to get J20 data), Lockheed Martin, Dassault, etc? Or are u a cosmic all knowing being?

That's like Denial power over 9000.

Can't believe the words of an Air Chief of a highly professional air force?

I understand if you guys don't believe the words of your own military chiefs, since they are mostly politicians and less army men, but our armed forces are completely a-political.

For most professionals, the words of our Air Chief is plenty. Even the PLAAF is likely conducting major studies about it.

 

[Ultima Thule]

F-35

Oh what F-35 has a least degraded every things (RADARS, EW, AVIONICS) as compare to RAFALE and it still of an options by India, how that possible @randomradio

 

[Ultima Thule]

@randomradio you have a cow dung instead a brain @randomradio We want actual RCS, EW ,radar, Avionics, data from Lockheen Martin, Dassult, CAC data, not from some random news links @randomradio


IN SIMPLE WORDS THAT WEAPONS OF INDIA HAVE OR GOING TO HAVE IS/WILL INVINCIBLE, AND DOESN'T HAVE LIMITATIONS/WEAKNESS, AND OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE 100000000000000000 GEN A HEAD FROM REST OF THE WORLD @randomradio


you're blind patriot sh!t retard @randomradio

KEEP BLABBERING WITHOUT SOLID PROVE @randomradio

JAY SHUPA DUPA POWA HIND SINCE 2012 @randomradio

 

[gambit]

Rafale:
Two sources have already been presented many times.

One is the VP of Dassault who said the frontal RCS of the Rafale is 0.0001m2 class (sparrow).

What else do you expect him to say?

That is NOT an independent source. That is a BIASED source.

The rest of your post is not worth debating.

 

[Cookie Monster]

look , RCS has nothing to do with 4th gen jets, we need to understand this much...
this is because the 4.5 gen jets radars have matured to such a level that no matter what you do detection range will be >150km, the optimum range for BVR weapons is 25kms with maximum range in best conditions in targets moving towards each other is around 100km

so BVR weapons really count in less than 25(new ram jets ~50 km range), thus only a 5th gen fighter will be bale to remain stealthy, even with stronger radars that is becoming difficult..so i am not sure why is this discussion even brought up by indians..

other thing that is curious, is the same su30 is deadly beast in IAF but flying coffin equivalent in PLAAF....

I'm not having a debate with him about the actual RCS...or how BVR combat works bcuz he doesn't have the slightest clue. I'm just putting him in his place...he constantly runs his mouth and makes claims without solid evidence. He doesn't know how evidence/logic works or how a discussion is to be carried out. He is a hyper nationalist who constantly makes idiotic claims trying to paint anything India related as the best in class with no equivalents. A typical product of Indian media's constantly fed narrative of "mera bharat mahan"

 

[randomradio]

What else do you expect him to say?

That is NOT an independent source. That is a BIASED source.

Think rationally. Regardless of whether it's a biased source or not, they provided data.

If someone in the USAF comes up and says the PCA will be mach 5 capable, are you gonna believe it or simply claim it's not true because it's from a biased source?

The fact is such info will come from captive sources, and not from anywhere else. So US military info is released by US sources, Russian military info comes from Russian sources etc.

There is no such thing as an independent source. And when it comes to this technology, it's absolutely frightening to believe even from an independent source.

The only sources are the makers or the users, obviously. My sources were the makers. Very solid makers, and neither of them are anonymous. Both are very, very well-known in their respective fields.

One of them even headed this facility.
http://www-lmj.cea.fr/en/lmj/index.htm

I see no relation between their bias towards French technology and the data released.

He specifically said 0.0001m2 to 0.001m2 class without weapons and 0.001m2 to 0.01m2 class with weapons. There is literally no reason to be so specific in the first place.

Data never lies. Numbers never lie.

If the Rafale did not have the frontal RCS of a sparrow, they would not have said anything at all. And the fact is this is so easy to test by any customer that there's no point lying about it. Nor would Trappier, Dassault's CEO, have said under oath to the French Senate that the Rafale is superior to all existing jets, including the F-35.

The rest of your post is not worth debating.

Of course, it's not worth debating.

Either you want to live in denial or Gen Breedlove and Gen Coglitore, men who outrank you significantly, are liars. Of course, that means they are lying to their own masters in the Congress.

But then, you don't even believe in the existence of Digital antennas, so I don't expect you to understand this subject, it's way beyond your time.

You merely have doubts, but I'm 100% sure. A pretty large part of you hopes that I am wrong, but then...

Give it 10 years or so, and you will find what I said to be common knowledge by then.

 

[ziaulislam]

Think rationally. Regardless of whether it's a biased source or not, they provided data.

If someone in the USAF comes up and says the PCA will be mach 5 capable, are you gonna believe it or simply claim it's not true because it's from a biased source?

The fact is such info will come from captive sources, and not from anywhere else. So US military info is released by US sources, Russian military info comes from Russian sources etc.

There is no such thing as an independent source. And when it comes to this technology, it's absolutely frightening to believe even from an independent source.

The only sources are the makers or the users, obviously. My sources were the makers. Very solid makers, and neither of them are anonymous. Both are very, very well-known in their respective fields.

One of them even headed this facility.
http://www-lmj.cea.fr/en/lmj/index.htm

I see no relation between their bias towards French technology and the data released.

He specifically said 0.0001m2 to 0.001m2 class without weapons and 0.001m2 to 0.01m2 class with weapons. There is literally no reason to be so specific in the first place.

Data never lies. Numbers never lie.

If the Rafale did not have the frontal RCS of a sparrow, they would not have said anything at all. And the fact is this is so easy to test by any customer that there's no point lying about it. Nor would Trappier, Dassault's CEO, have said under oath to the French Senate that the Rafale is superior to all existing jets, including the F-35.



Of course, it's not worth debating.

Either you want to live in denial or Gen Breedlove and Gen Coglitore, men who outrank you significantly, are liars. Of course, that means they are lying to their own masters in the Congress.

But then, you don't even believe in the existence of Digital antennas, so I don't expect you to understand this subject, it's way beyond your time.

You merely have doubts, but I'm 100% sure. A pretty large part of you hopes that I am wrong, but then...

Give it 10 years or so, and you will find what I said to be common knowledge by then.

you are definitively on some strong stuff if you think a 4th gen fighter is better than fifth gen fighter...there is reason why one is called a 4th gen and other is called a fifth gen..there is a generation difference between them..
avionics, engine, stealth, sensor fusion everything is ahead a generation...even a blind man can work that out..just because the fench warm a few pockets here and there(which they are notrious for) doesnt mean it will bridge the difference

i hope you do understand the meaning of "generation"
PS:
i will discuss generations here with you on this thread, kindly make another thread lol

 

[randomradio]

you are definitively on some strong stuff if you think a 4th gen fighter is better than fifth gen fighter...there is reason why one is called a 4th gen and other is called a fifth gen..there is a generation difference between them..
avionics, engine, stealth, sensor fusion everything is ahead a generation...even a blind man can work that out..just because the fench warm a few pockets here and there(which they are notrious for) doesnt mean it will bridge the difference

i hope you do understand the meaning of "generation"

The word "generation" is a misnomer. You can make it define anything. It's the capability that matters. The F-35 isn't 5th generation by the F-22's standards since it cannot supercruise. And the F-22 does not have advanced electronics at the same level as the F-35.

The Rafale has near-F-22 level performance and better than F-35 electronics, and it has stealth and supercruise to boot. The Rafale is more 5th generation than both F-22 and F-35 combined.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...6-jets-eric-trappier/articleshow/54494005.cms
Trappier: Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F 16.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ance-dassault-aviation-ceo-1186530-2018-03-10
If you compare Apple to Apple, you do not compare the Rafale with the F-16. The Rafale is better than the F-16.

 

[Armchair]

Lower RCS on a 4th gen is still useful. This is why the next JFT is designed with some stealth considerations.

This is because real world, combat detection ranges can widely vary. Particularly for instance in the case of low level penetration through uneven terrain and clutter. Or in the case of jamming.

The BVR shots are done by missiles that are dependent on a small radar on their nose. This radar, to date, is a very basic radar and can be spoofed, fooled, jammed, among other things. How far this radar can see your aircraft, is also an issue.

Smaller RCS reduces detection ranges. The general rule of thumb is if RCS reduces by a factor of 10, it reduces detection by 44%. So, if you have an aircraft with an RCS of 10, and you are detected at 200 km, another aircraft with an RCS of 1 will be detected at 120 km approx with the same set. Now try calculating that for 0.1 km and for 0.6 (JFT approx).

Broadly:
MKI - RCS 10
JFT - 0.6-0.8
RCS of an AAM - 0.1-0.2

so with a little hard work and a calculator, you can figure a few things out. Like you could load out an MKI with x number of AAMs, and a JFT with x number, and then compare, vis-a-vis their radar sets. With the KLJ-7A the JFT will have an unassailable advantage.

 

[araz]

*Ahem* it would be disingenuous to disregard the threat that Rafael DOES present. Thirty six planes for 8 billion dollars makes it a VERY expensive plane. Now, we either accuse the Indians of being more foolish than folly itself, or we accept that this is an act of malicious vengeance. India seeks to utterly destroy its enemies - crush them like mud sculptures on a beach. Mad fury lies behind this purchase, and the likes of France, America, and Britain will only egg them on and support them. The Indian Rafaels should NOT be disregarded.

As to the prowess of the French, Australian friends who visited France in the 80s describe being amazed at their technological advancement. Long before there was the internet, the French had an internet like service. Lookup Minitel on Wikipedia. Do NOT take the French lightly.

No one is as diluded to do so. It is a simple question of what will be provided to us and what we can afford to buy. Cash available would change the minds of the vendors really fast. However the embargo placed on us by France in 2002 where they did not release out M3 roses and the 90B sub made Pak establishment realise that even France is not a reliable partner. PAF looked at Rafale and Saab Griffin in early 2000s. Both were beyond our reach and the Swedes even told us to take a hike politely. There were other dirty games being played in the back ground with various pressures being applied.
The Pak military establishment is not foolish. It made a pragmatic choice knowing fully well that the situation might turn against them. The coalition support fund and FMF were ready monies to buy US hardware. Even though 30% of it was clawed back in the guise of providing US tech support and various other providers, when you are cash strapped and cannot sort out your own house then these decisions will always be taken. It all boils down to money which we never had and still do not have. The state is a cesspit of corruption and like a dying body left to the rats to feed on.
A

 

[gambit]

Think rationally. Regardless of whether it's a biased source or not, they provided data.

Utter bullshit. And I say that kindly.

For all the yrs I have been on this forum, NEVER have I insisted that anyone take my words or the words of Lockheed Martin at face value.

Why is the sphere the IDEAL radar calibration shape?

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

...a large aluminium sphere in Earth orbit since 6 May 1965. It is the oldest spacecraft still in use, having lasted for over 50 years.

It has been used for radar calibration since its launch.

Because the sphere is the simplest shape. No matter its orientation to the radar, it will always produce the same RCS value. So find the RCS values of different sizes of the sphere can be done by one radar or even simulations and math. As we get to more complex shapes like the cube or conic, RCS values begins to change as orientations changes. Simulations and math gets more complex and time consuming. That is why the sphere is used to calibrate radars.

An aircraft is a complex body. While the overall shape is symmetrical, the features are irregular. We can have a vent on one side of the aircraft but not on the other side. There is a cockpit bulge on forward fuselage but not aft. Intake openings are not the same shapes and dimensions as exhaust openings. And so on...

So in order to get an accurate RCS value of any aircraft, the measurement radar must be allowed to look at the aircraft at different perspectives. It is not enough to have the standard four: front/rear/left/right.

The radar that is moved at one degree increment will have a more accurate measurement than the radar that is moved at ten degrees increments. Of course, moving in one degree increments will be more time consuming.

That is why the US have something like the 'Benefield Anechoic Chamber'...

http://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Arti...ancer-returns-to-benefield-anechoic-facility/

Not only does BAF performs RCS measurement, which is top secret, BAF also tests EM transmission efficiency of various comm antennas, telling us where to place the antenna and how large to make it.

If the US does not release the RCS value of the F-22, what make you think there is credible public information regarding the RCS measurement of the Rafale or the PRAT-FALL?

There are none.

It is not enough to simply tell us a value like '.0001' meters squared. Tell us HOW you got that value. Or put your fighter in combat.

At Benefield, the aircraft rests on a turntable that is large enough to handle the B-1. But does that turntable move at 1 deg increment or 10? Or maybe as fine grained as .001 deg increment? Or maybe that level of precision is unnecessary? Do you think we are going to tell you? We tell you that we have an EM anechoic hangar to measure the RCS values of A, B, and C aircrafts, but we do not tell you the results.

So you can take whatever Dassault says all you want, it is ultimately meaningless.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

 

[BATMAN]

look , RCS has nothing to do with 4th gen jets, we need to understand this much...
this is because the 4.5 gen jets radars have matured to such a level that no matter what you do detection range will be >150km, the optimum range for BVR weapons is 25kms with maximum range in best conditions in targets moving towards each other is around 100km

so BVR weapons really count in less than 25(new ram jets ~50 km range), thus only a 5th gen fighter will be bale to remain stealthy, even with stronger radars that is becoming difficult..so i am not sure why is this discussion even brought up by indians..

other thing that is curious, is the same su30 is deadly beast in IAF but flying coffin equivalent in PLAAF....

Let's be generous and credit 50km to modern BVR's certain kill range.
However in any war scenario, more fighters would be shot down by ground based systems.
Indian airforce would mostly be flying at higher altitudes, avoiding dog fights.
Pakistan ariforce on the contrary would dominate low altitude air space and probably would deny SU-30 safe landing.