JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Donatello]

your logical reasoning is flawed.... china had billions of dollar ..no one sold them.

Chinese defense industry was heavily in R&D with Israelis and Western firms before that square protest thing......and so did Russians. Almost every Front line fighter that Soviet Union operated, also went to China. Including the now Su 27/Su30 series, the F-7s and the Y8 Transport aircrafts.


Please do your research at least.

Now their industry is very mature, that they can develop their own.

 

[Farooqi1]

Its not about everybody believing, its about the PAF believing.
They believe it meets their requirements for a minimal deterrence and (according to them) it does.

This is where I have the biggest problem with what PAF is believing. In my view PAf seriously lacks decision making ability. Following is a summary from Wiki about PAF past considerations. I don't know how believable is this as it is taken from Wiki but look what have they done in the past and I am quoting from Wiki.

"Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000, reviving a proposal from the early 1980s to procure around 20-40 aircraft, but again a sale did not occur because France did not want to sell a fully capable version due to political reasons. In August 1994 the PAF was offered the Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden, but again the sale did not occur because 20% of the Gripen's components were from the U.S. and Pakistan was still under U.S. sanctions.[35]

In mid-1992 Pakistan was close to signing a contract for the supply of 40 Dassault Mirage 2000, equipped with Thomson-CSF RDM/7 radars, from France.[36]

In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29.[37] But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5.[38] French and Russian teams visited Pakistan on 27 November 1994 and it was speculated that interest in the Russian aircraft was to pressure France into reducing the price of the Mirage 2000. Stated requirement was for up to 40 aircraft.[39]"

Had they would have chosen Sukhoi things might have been different and we still would have JF-17.

 

[TaimiKhan]

but why didn't they buy from west ? why they are still embargoed ? no doubt in the entire history that west have made most sophisticated weapons .... they could have buy from them also as they had lot of cash. the point was it is not about money alone as the gentleman put it.

West was closed to them, when it got opened they did start a few things, some of the French technology and european technology and even western engines is an example of that, but when the momentum had to start, they again got sanctioned due to tinamen protests and which continues to this day, Russia was the only one left.

Had west not sanctioned, you would have seen lot of more western stuff, one of the money factor that europe wants to life the arms sale embargo while US denies them to do so.

 

[SQ8]

I find it hard to believe.
Even if it didn't meet their requirements, what other choice do they have? Can they complain about it....in front of the general public and ask for even more funds from the govt.? This IMHO is a flawed perception that just because they are happy with it, or bcoz they claim to be in front of all of us, they think it can meet their needs.

I think its a flawed perception to think that PAF officials would stick to this claim both in public and private and still lie about it.
You seem to confuse needs with wants.
The JF-17 is the best deal that could have been bought with the available money.
It caters to the requirements set of a BVR multirole aircraft with good EW survivability.
That was the need, the PAF would have wanted a Rafale in this role. .and F-22's to provide the spear.
but we all know what is possible and what is not.
The JF-17 met the needs, and thats that.

 

[SQ8]

This is where I have the biggest problem with what PAF is believing. In my view PAf seriously lacks decision making ability. Following is a summary from Wiki about PAF past considerations. I don't know how believable is this as it is taken from Wiki but look what have they done in the past and I am quoting from Wiki.

"Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000, reviving a proposal from the early 1980s to procure around 20-40 aircraft, but again a sale did not occur because France did not want to sell a fully capable version due to political reasons. In August 1994 the PAF was offered the Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden, but again the sale did not occur because 20% of the Gripen's components were from the U.S. and Pakistan was still under U.S. sanctions.[35]

In mid-1992 Pakistan was close to signing a contract for the supply of 40 Dassault Mirage 2000, equipped with Thomson-CSF RDM/7 radars, from France.[36]

In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29.[37] But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5.[38] French and Russian teams visited Pakistan on 27 November 1994 and it was speculated that interest in the Russian aircraft was to pressure France into reducing the price of the Mirage 2000. Stated requirement was for up to 40 aircraft.[39]"

Had they would have chosen Sukhoi things might have been different and we still would have JF-17.

I would urge you not to trust all things wiki..
There was a move to look for Russian equipment in the 90's.. mainly the Sukhoi's since the Mig-29 was not necessarily desired.
The deal was just doing the initial rounds and a PAF team checked out the Su-27S . However, the Indian lobby in Russia got wind of it and there was massive pressure put diplomatically and financially(threatening to cancel existing deals between India and Russia) which resulted in the PAF team being sent back with a firm NO.
The poles only offered their old Mig-29.. poland NEVER operated the Su-27... again.. wiki's editable content goes against it..
The Mirage 2000 fiasco is well known.. considering that the french were prepared to strip us for it(along with the kickback for the PPP govt).. the PAF high command resisted smartly.. and requested a lite M2K-5.. coming at around 25 million..
However the PPP hounds refused to budge on the pretext that this particular purchase would not land them the whipped cream that they so desired for their coffers...and so that opportunity was also lost.

the gripen was again offered in the 2003-2005 period, However.. by that time the JF-17 had flown..
and the PAF saw nothing in the Gripen C that the JF-17 was not bringing with it.
there has been a whole discussion on the merits and demerits of this decision, I would suggest you read through it if you have the time.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61786-arguments-choosing-thunder-over-gripen-12.html

 

[TaimiKhan]

I would urge you not to trust all things wiki..
There was a move to look for Russian equipment in the 90's.. mainly the Sukhoi's since the Mig-29 was not necessarily desired.
The deal was just doing the initial rounds and a PAF team checked out the Su-27S . However, the Indian lobby in Russia got wind of it and there was massive pressure put diplomatically and financially(threatening to cancel existing deals between India and Russia) which resulted in the PAF team being sent back with a firm NO.
The poles only offered their old Mig-29.. poland NEVER operated the Su-27... again.. wiki's editable content goes against it..
The Mirage 2000 fiasco is well known.. considering that the french were prepared to strip us for it(along with the kickback for the PPP govt).. the PAF high command resisted smartly.. and requested a lite M2K-5.. coming at around 25 million..
However the PPP hounds refused to budge on the pretext that this particular purchase would not land them the whipped cream that they so desired for their coffers...and so that opportunity was also lost.

the gripen was again offered in the 2003-2005 period, However.. by that time the JF-17 had flown..
and the PAF saw nothing in the Gripen C that the JF-17 was not bringing with it.
there has been a whole discussion on the merits and demerits of this decision, I would suggest you read through it if you have the time.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/61786-arguments-choosing-thunder-over-gripen-12.html

Well then it seems, PAF guys did not made any blunders as told by some, rather external factors played role in not acquiring the subject aircrafts at the time. Even the Mirage 2000 would have been fiasco too, and it wasn't PAF's blunder, rather the PPP wanting more money made the PAF unable to buy the aircraft.

 

[sancho]

What's benefits difference between Rafale's small-size twin engines and JFT's single engines?

More thrust, more payload, more space for internal systems, often also more space for bigger radars...

 

[Farooqi1]

Well then it seems, PAF guys did not made any blunders as told by some, rather external factors played role in not acquiring the subject aircrafts at the time. Even the Mirage 2000 would have been fiasco too, and it wasn't PAF's blunder, rather the PPP wanting more money made the PAF unable to buy the aircraft.

But khan Sahib if funds would permit the Future Acquisition don't you think we should go for someting like J11B +J10B if things could work out with Russia espcially after Putins up coming visit?

 

[razgriz19]

Ok could you send me the account number and method of depositing the money? Comon we all are adults here I suppose but some of us are not acting like one. As per PAF website they are going to spend $3-$5 billion on JF-17 programm. Where the hell this money is coming from? Couldn't we use $1 Billion out of it to have some J11b? Bari Sahib it is all about ego.

if it was that easy it would've been done long time ago!
when a country buys new aircrafts, it doesn't just have to pay for the aircrafts, there is crew training, infrastructure, maintenance facilities, overhaul facilities and lots of other factors to think about! and not to mention the high operation cost of J-11!

there are many african and former soviet states with Sukhois and Migs in their arsenal, but they never fly them simply because they dont have the necessary infrastructure to keep them operational!

right now PAC is capable (or will be in near future) of doing anything with Jf-17.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is where I have the biggest problem with what PAF is believing. In my view PAf seriously lacks decision making ability. Following is a summary from Wiki about PAF past considerations. I don't know how believable is this as it is taken from Wiki but look what have they done in the past and I am quoting from Wiki.

"Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000, reviving a proposal from the early 1980s to procure around 20-40 aircraft, but again a sale did not occur because France did not want to sell a fully capable version due to political reasons. In August 1994 the PAF was offered the Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden, but again the sale did not occur because 20% of the Gripen's components were from the U.S. and Pakistan was still under U.S. sanctions.[35]

In mid-1992 Pakistan was close to signing a contract for the supply of 40 Dassault Mirage 2000, equipped with Thomson-CSF RDM/7 radars, from France.[36]

In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29.[37] But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5.[38] French and Russian teams visited Pakistan on 27 November 1994 and it was speculated that interest in the Russian aircraft was to pressure France into reducing the price of the Mirage 2000. Stated requirement was for up to 40 aircraft.[39]"

Had they would have chosen Sukhoi things might have been different and we still would have JF-17.

Hi,

THe purchase of mirage2k was stopped due to the rumours of 40million kickback---for people with any brains and futuristic common sense---a minscule amount of money for parity---. I have stated many a times----a major weapons deal takes a very long time to mature----once the deal is made--it must not be cancelled for charges of like corruption.

That should be considered the part and parcel of the deal----the most important thing is---is the item in question the right item for the armed forces---if it is---then let the deal go through---and in due time take the culprits to task----but stopping the sale is utter stupidity and an act of being dumb----a total lack of understanding the needs and demands of the time----

I keep saying---and I am proved right over and over again by the sheer stupidity of PAF as an organization----. This force has miserably failed at providing security for my country----.

So---there were 36 mirages to be purchased---am I right---and the bribe was 40 million---basically 1 million and some odd change per aircraft more----here you don't have any fully operating aircraft to counter the enemy---every country has sanctioned you---and when you get a deal---you screw up.

And Tamikhan--my man---you can tell it to that paf guy---" you goof ball---if you had any common sense----you would have spread the rumour in return---that the deal was being sabotaged by the arch enemy india---these runours of bribes were indian rumours so that pakistani public not get outraged at the accusations and stop the sale'---though knowing very well what the truth was---.

Since when have the pakistanis become the harbingers of 'truth and honesty'------. For your own family's protection all you miserable pakistanis would go and buy weapons and hand guns at exorbitant prices---ask your grand parents---how much they paid for those AK47 klasnikovs in the 80's and 90's to protect their villages and farms and houeholds----.

In the last 20 years----every timely oppurtunity that the paf has gotten to get parity with the enemy---has been turned away and rejected by the PAF---.

These fools paid around a sum of $250 million dollars further to the americans for the F16's even after the sanctions were imposed----. Instead of suing the u s govt right away in the court of law---.

 

[Farooqi1]

Hi,

THe purchase of mirage2k was stopped due to the rumours of 40million kickback---for people with any brains and futuristic common sense---a minscule amount of money for parity---. I have stated many a times----a major weapons deal takes a very long time to mature----once the deal is made--it must not be cancelled for charges of like corruption.

That should be considered the part and parcel of the deal----the most important thing is---is the item in question the right item for the armed forces---if it is---then let the deal go through---and in due time take the culprits to task----but stopping the sale is utter stupidity and an act of being dumb----a total lack of understanding the needs and demands of the time----

I keep saying---and I am proved right over and over again by the sheer stupidity of PAF as an organization----. This force has miserably failed at providing security for my country----.

So---there were 36 mirages to be purchased---am I right---and the bribe was 40 million---basically 1 million and some odd change per aircraft more----here you don't have any fully operating aircraft to counter the enemy---every country has sanctioned you---and when you get a deal---you screw up.

And Tamikhan--my man---you can tell it to that paf guy---" you goof ball---if you had any common sense----you would have spread the rumour in return---that the deal was being sabotaged by the arch enemy india---these runours of bribes were indian rumours so that pakistani public gets outraged at the accusations and stop the sale'---though knowing very well what the truth wasd---.

Since when have the pakistanis become the harbingers of 'truth and honesty'------. For your own family's protection all you miserable pakistanis would go and buy weapons and handguns at exorbitant prices---ask your grasnd parents---how much they paid for those AK47 klasnikovs in the 80's and 90's to protect their villages and farms and houeholds----.

In the last 20 years----every timely oppurtunity that the paf has gotten to get parity with the enemy---has been turned away and rejected by the PAF---.

These fools paid around a sum of $250 million dollars further to the americans for the F16's even after the sanctions were imposed----. Instead of suing the u s govt right away in the court of law---.

Mr. Khan pardon me for using Urdu but Kia Baat he Aapki. You hit it on the nail. You know I get so emotional some time that I feel like crying for what they have done to the land of my birthplace. In my last trip to Pakistan I was shown the pictures of my family house which my ancestors left behind when they migrated from India to Pakistan. Our old family house in India built by my grand father for me and my children was big enough that now a days there is a high school operating from that place. And what we got in Pakistan well......that is not to be disussed over here. Point is that we did all of that to be ruled by fools and corupt.

 

[pshamim]

Mastan Khan Saheb,

Your post does make sense only if the numbers mentioned are correct. $40 Million is a miniscule amount. What actually was demanded can only be stated by some one who knows the facts.

Our member MuradK was the Joint Secretary of Ministry of Defence at the time and was negotiating this project. If you need the facts, you need to get it from horse's mouth rather than believing false rumores.

Several members here are aware of who MuradK is (not his actual name) and his background besides me.

 

[Farooqi1]

Mastan Khan Saheb,

Your post does make sense only if the numbers mentioned are correct. $40 Million is a miniscule amount. What actually was demanded can only be stated by some one who knows the facts.

Our member MuradK was the Joint Secretary of Ministry of Defence at the time and was negotiating this project. If you need the facts, you need to get it from horse's mouth rather than believing false rumores.

Several members here are aware of who MuradK is (not his actual name) and his background besides me.

PShamim Sahib:

Do you know the story? Back then I was relatively much younger and was not interested in Pakistan defense but cricket only. If you know the story then please let us know. We should let the whole Pakistan know how these lutereys have destroyed Pakistan.

 

[ziaulislam]

Do amateurs like us know more and understand more than what PAF does? thats what i am getting from posts of some members? we are getting posts claiming that PAF is down right lying to people and international customers..

to summarize PAF thinks that JF-17 thunder can detect any enemy aircrft at distance well beyond any BVR firing range(105km for 5m2). it can carry as much as 4 confirmed Sd-10 and can simultaneously fire 2 BVR and guide them ACTIVELY to the target. has a descent avionics suits plus can carry external ECM suits and jammers to augment its capability. Has better avionics and BVR capability then any current IAF aircraft other than perhaps Su 30. can easily face and engage any future IAF threats especailly at its home enviroment with support AWACS and ECM support form other systems it will nullify the slight advantage the enemy strike aircrfts may have.

what i want to say that on paper thunder capabilities are good enough to face any 4/4.5 gen aircraft. and its low cost shouldnt be confused with its capabliites becasue reason for low costs are different.

and if we had to buy mrigae we should have brought it in 80s instead of f-16s as french were more reliable even in the past than Americans. we knew things will get bad once the soviet war is over

 

[pshamim]

PShamim Sahib:

Do you know the story? Back then I was relatively much younger and was not interested in Pakistan defense but cricket only. If you know the story then please let us know. We should let the whole Pakistan know how these lutereys have destroyed Pakistan.

Story has already been told before on these forums. Kickbacks amounted to several hundred Dollars and not tens of millions as presumed. PAF had to abandon the purchase to protect its budget otherwise the Luteras would have made few more castles in Dubai.

Also it is totally a figment of imagination on the part of some that Mirages were sacrifised so we could buy more F-16s. Fact is that F-16s were already part of PAF when the Mirages were first discussed. I can vouch for that as I went to Pakistan working as member of the F-16 team for General Dynamics Corporation.

I request that members when commenting on such matters must thoroughly research before arrogantly presenting their flawed knowlege and expose their ignorance.