JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Beast]

yes..thats because china spectacularly failed to build a jet engine despite tall claims of being a technological giant...

There are too many projects going on in China, China needs to priorities and we did it by concentrating on WS-10 which we succeed. WS-13 is a second tier project.

well you dont semd a chase plane which may fall off the sky or malfunction amidst a multimillion dollar experiment..Plus the plane is versitile and compatible with all the new pods chinese want to fit to it..
Chinese cant do that to their sukhoius...can they?


In addition to all that..there is no friendship for the hell of it in international politics..Countries dont spend their resources and money just on friendship thre is always a gain to be made..
If you think your rulers are stupid and blindly spending millions on Pakistan without any gain to be made...?

You shall be grateful for that help instead of doubting it. But China is also grateful of PAF letting our test pilot Lei Qiang to flow PAF F-16. It indeeds help the J-10 project at a time when China is really weak in its military industries in the early 90s.

 

[Windjammer]

@Beast

From what i know, JL-I5 is a twin seat and twin engine lead in trainer.....a totally different concept to the JF-17.
Many smaller air forces are not keen on twin engine machines and many certainly don't have the experience.
JF-17 has been tried, tested and cleared for it's operational role while the JL-15 may be still in progress. !!

 

[Beast]

@Beast

From what i know, JL-I5 is a twin seat and twin engine lead in trainer.....a totally different concept to the JF-17.
Many smaller air forces are not keen on twin engine machines and many certainly don't have the experience.
JF-17 has been tried, tested and cleared for it's operational role while the JL-15 may be still in progress. !!

Advance trainer is a great concept for small airforce which is what China is targeting with its product. Big airforces goes for more expensive stuff and they can afford separate trainer for it. That is the area mostly dominate by western countries.

Check out Philippine AF going for T-50 golden eagle while they didn't go for any frontline fighter. I am sure Philippine AF version will fitted with the Israel radar.

As for JL-15, it will makes it debut this third quarter for PLAAF and end of year for its first foreign customer. It is currently in serial production. China will make lot lot of JL-15, trust me.

 

[Windjammer]

Advance trainer is a great concept for small airforce which is what China is targeting with its product. Big airforces goes for more expensive stuff and they can afford separate trainer for it. That is the area mostly dominate by western countries.

Check out Philippine AF going for T-50 golden eagle while they didn't go for any frontline fighter. I am sure Philippine AF version will fitted with the Israel radar.

As for JL-15, it will makes it debut this third quarter for PLAAF and end of year for its first foreign customer. It is currently in serial production. China will make lot lot of JL-15, trust me.

Don't get me wrong, the JL-15 is an attractive looking compact aircraft and i hope PAF buys some as a supplement to the K-8 but don't you think these types of aircraft are more suitable for COINS missions than as say air superiority fighter. !!

 

[Safriz]

There are too many projects going on in China, China needs to priorities and we did it by concentrating on WS-10 which we succeed. WS-13 is a second tier project.



You shall be grateful for that help instead of doubting it. But China is also grateful of PAF letting our test pilot Lei Qiang to flow PAF F-16. It indeeds help the J-10 project at a time when China is really weak in its military industries in the early 90s.

THE problem lies within china itself..
Too many organisations working independantly on too many projects without any interaction...and no project finished to perfection and economic value...
If china can run their research and development programs in a more coordinated way...things can be different..
One little insignificant snow locked country with only 9 million population builds a world class fighter jet including engine...grippen of sweden..
Because they did it in organized way not hapazard as china..
About money...china can use her diplomatic oressure on our theiving government and make them pay their fair share....what stops chinese government from doing that?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

THE problem lies within china itself..
Too many organisations working independantly on too many projects without any interaction...and no project finished to perfection and economic value...
If china can run their research and development programs in a more coordinated way...things can be different..
One little insignificant snow locked country with only 9 million population builds a world class fighter jet including engine...grippen of sweden..
Because they did it in organized way not hapazard as china..
About money...china can use her diplomatic oressure on our theiving government and make them pay their fair share....what stops chinese government from doing that?

Sir, Sweden gets its engine technology from USA, not indigenously. The Volvo RM12 in the Grippen is just a version of GE F404/414. USA refused permission for Sweden to sell the Grippen to Pakistan, which is one of the reasons why we now have the JF-17.

 

[Safriz]

Sir, Sweden gets its engine technology from USA, not indigenously.

Their volvo engine is based on an american design which they bought off america..
But every part of it is built in sweden and they have improved it a lot spevifically for grippen.
Could china do any of that for any of their planes..?? No

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Their volvo engine is based on an american design which they bought off america..
But every part of it is built in sweden and they have improved it a lot spevifically for grippen.
Could china do any of that for any of their planes..?? No

The present crop of Chinese engines is based off Russian technology, Sir, and they are improving the basic designs just like Sweden did. And please note, Sweden cannot sell its engines to any third country without US approval, since it is US technology still.

 

[Safriz]

The present crop of Chinese engines is based off Russian technology, Sir, and they are improving the basic designs just like Sweden did. And please note, Sweden cannot sell its engines to any third country without US approval, since it is US technology still.

The point was comparison...
Countries who make jet engines or other complicated defence machinary dont do this only because they are big and rich...they do it with 'well coordinate,well managed' R&D.
A headless chicken goes nowhere...
For china many of their defence projects specially jf-17 is an ego issue..
They think that if Pakistan will make some of it and some of it china will make...that wil' be loss of ego to china.

But look at eurofighter consortium...they are succesfully building the plane in more than a dozen countrues part by part.....airbrakes arw made in a factory the size of a tenis court near to where i live....
China can be the head of this headless chicken called jf-17 program...can set targets for manufacturing R&D in Pakistan and use their diplomatic pressure to keep it running..
But from the looks of it they will chicken away.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

The point was comparison...
Countries who make jet engines or other complicated defence machinary dont do this only because they are big and rich...they do it with 'well coordinate,well managed' R&D.
A headless chicken goes nowhere...
For china many of their defence projects specially jf-17 is an ego issue..
They think that if Pakistan will make some of it and some of it china will make...that wil' be loss of ego to china.

But look at eurofighter consortium...they are succesfully building the plane in more than a dozen countrues part by part.....airbrakes arw made in a factory the size of a tenis court near to where i live....
China can be the head of this headless chicken called jf-17 program...can set targets for manufacturing R&D in Pakistan and use their diplomatic pressure to keep it running..
But from the looks of it they will chicken away.

Sir, if your point was comparison, I would suggest that China is doing pretty well compared to Russia, USA or Pakistan, so it is hard to criticize them much in just about any field right now.

 

[SpArK]

The point was comparison...
Countries who make jet engines or other complicated defence machinary dont do this only because they are big and rich...they do it with 'well coordinate,well managed' R&D.
A headless chicken goes nowhere...
For china many of their defence projects specially jf-17 is an ego issue..
They think that if Pakistan will make some of it and some of it china will make...that wil' be loss of ego to china.

But look at eurofighter consortium...they are succesfully building the plane in more than a dozen countrues part by part.....airbrakes arw made in a factory the size of a tenis court near to where i live....
China can be the head of this headless chicken called jf-17 program...can set targets for manufacturing R&D in Pakistan and use their diplomatic pressure to keep it running..
But from the looks of it they will chicken away.

Fail comparison.

You cant compare EU with China in terms of Aerospace and sharing or work load to others and blame it on ego.

Where as in EU we have several countries which are developed, experienced with good R&D and infrastructure which can support the program with confidence.

While China is surrounded by non capable countries and the rest which are capable are hostile and allies of US. Hence China alone has to take up the bulk of all jobs inorder to maintain success rate of their programmes.

Another factor is work culture.

While China has a very disciplined workforce backed up a stable government and massive wealth, its allies and partners are having political, economical and social issues.

China is not taking any risk with their industry and they are doing it rightly so.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

put it this way...
two people put together money and hoped that it will be recovered by later sales which didnt happen..
both are to be blamed...
Plus without PAF'S input JF-17 program had gone nowhere..
China had no idea what an F-16 looks like from inside..PAF had all that knowledge..
Just chinese money hadnt built the plane..the failed super-7 project is an example.....Many years of work and no output..
So PAF 's contribution in providing vital information about F-16 offsets the lack of funding...

Buddy, PAF inputs not much then cosmetics, Plane development take time and failed Super-7 is bed for successful plane.

If China want to look how f-16 look from Inside their more then 10,000 images of F-16 available on net.

Is F-16 Cockpit and JF-17 cockpit same in look and function ? If Yes , then PAF contribute by showing plane and if not then PAF done nothing other then flying and giving money.

 

[Munir]

A twin seater means less fuel or less sensors... Would you do that to a light fighter? If other planes can simulate the JF17 perfectly, I see no big issue. It is an economical and tactical issue. You need a primary, intermediate and advanced trainer anyway. Advanced trainers can do anything these days. And it neither suits the role for JF17 to have dual brain. The F15c/d is far more used to gain tactical superiority. The JF17 is backbone/workhorse...

 

[Safriz]

Fail comparison.

You cant compare EU with China in terms of Aerospace and sharing or work load to others and blame it on ego.

Where as in EU we have several countries which are developed, experienced with good R&D and infrastructure which can support the program with confidence.

While China is surrounded by non capable countries and the rest which are capable are hostile and allies of US. Hence China alone has to take up the bulk of all jobs inorder to maintain success rate of their programmes.

Another factor is work culture.

While China has a very disciplined workforce backed up a stable government and massive wealth, its allies and partners are having political, economical and social issues.

China is not taking any risk with their industry and they are doing it rightly so.

Ego is an issue in asia,including india...
Thats something europeans have put aside atleast for each other and started to work together...
While in asia any such attempt fails and changed into a penis measuring contest..
Its not that europeans have two brains per person and we have one. They set their priorities right and everything among partners in any joint venture is well defined.
Every body's contribution in terms of money marketing,manufacturing and research is used to benifit the project without making it 'who done what' issue.
Thats why i gave example of the factory which makes air brakes for eurofighter...i know the bossman's wife and its not even s large firm..
Same is the situation of the hundreds of companies making various little components of eurofighter....airbus and in near future F-35.
You dont need to be a ****** rich country or company to make these war machines.....good management is the key.

About comparing sweden and china..
Its not fail comparison......if a country like sweden did it in 70s and china+Pakistan in 2013 still cant do it...there is a problem,

 

[Beast]

The point was comparison...
Countries who make jet engines or other complicated defence machinary dont do this only because they are big and rich...they do it with 'well coordinate,well managed' R&D.
A headless chicken goes nowhere...
For china many of their defence projects specially jf-17 is an ego issue..
They think that if Pakistan will make some of it and some of it china will make...that wil' be loss of ego to china.

But look at eurofighter consortium...they are succesfully building the plane in more than a dozen countrues part by part.....airbrakes arw made in a factory the size of a tenis court near to where i live....
China can be the head of this headless chicken called jf-17 program...can set targets for manufacturing R&D in Pakistan and use their diplomatic pressure to keep it running..
But from the looks of it they will chicken away.

I can sense your bitterness, currently china is doing very well and not like the headless chicken you describe. Development takes time and resources. You can't suddenly ask us to pop out 4-5 modern turbofan. Currently twin engine heavy weight fighter takes priority like J-20 and J-11 flanker series. You can see all our indigenous engines goes to J-20 (WS-10X)and j-11B(WS-10A). Then the next priority goes to WS-15 which is the future engine for J-20, follow by WS-20 which is the power plant for Y-20. Third one goes to CJ-1000A which is the power plant for C919 civilian plane. You can see WS-13 drop to even very lower tier.

They are plenty of achievement by china due to great coordination and resourceful planning like Beidou II GPS, ABM mid course interception, CV-16 using all indigenous component for refurbishing, WZ-10 attack helo and more...

Our army had achieved full 100% self made component.