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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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All of the above is true. But another factor is the airfield being used; i.e. the length of runway available. A civilian airfield like Dubai has a (much) longer runway than most military airfields, so why even deploy the chute; if one can decelerate just on air-brakes and sporadic wheel-braking? Some military airfields may also not necessitate use of tail-chutes for the same reason.

That's not true ! One out of three landings at Dubai Air Show was done without deploying chute, if you look for other two performances you will see thunder stoped by chute + breaks. Landing aircraft this way depends not only on the length of runway but also on the skills of the pilot.
 
you guyz are hopeless...
Some aircraft have high landing speed. F-105, mirage are a few examples.
Drag chutes are part of standard landing procedures with these aircraft, they COULD land without them, but would have longer landing run.
It also depends on runway conditions, whether its Icy or too hot. And Yes, Chutes help decrease tear and wear of the brakes.

Jf-17 has delta wings, so i'm guessing its landing speed is a little higher than the F-16..?
And why doesn't the pilots land JF-17 like F-16/F-15?
Use the entire body as a large air brake..
 
you guyz are hopeless...
Some aircraft have high landing speed. F-105, mirage are a few examples.
Drag chutes are part of standard landing procedures with these aircraft, they COULD land without them, but would have longer landing run.
It also depends on runway conditions, whether its Icy or too hot. And Yes, Chutes help decrease tear and wear of the brakes.

Jf-17 has delta wings, so i'm guessing its landing speed is a little higher than the F-16..?
And why doesn't the pilots land JF-17 like F-16/F-15?
Use the entire body as a large air brake..


Nothing to be hopeless about.

JF-17 is definitely not delta wing like that in Mirage III/V or F-7PGs. It's more like the wing configuration of the F-16s, with LERX. Also F-16s carry air brakes next to the tail planes, which deploy in the vertical direction.
 
Nothing to be hopeless about.

JF-17 is definitely not delta wing like that in Mirage III/V or F-7PGs. It's more like the wing configuration of the F-16s, with LERX. Also F-16s carry air brakes next to the tail planes, which deploy in the vertical direction.

The wings are cropped-delta. And yes, they do resemble with F-16's wings.
And I wasn't talking about F-16's air brakes, i was talking about the way F-16 pilots land. They use the ENTIRE body as a large air brake. F-15 pilots also do that.

 
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you guyz are hopeless...
Some aircraft have high landing speed. F-105, mirage are a few examples.
Drag chutes are part of standard landing procedures with these aircraft, they COULD land without them, but would have longer landing run.
It also depends on runway conditions, whether its Icy or too hot. And Yes, Chutes help decrease tear and wear of the brakes.

Jf-17 has delta wings, so i'm guessing its landing speed is a little higher than the F-16..?
And why doesn't the pilots land JF-17 like F-16/F-15?
Use the entire body as a large air brake..

There is difference b/w delta and cropped delta wing. Alot of Difference furthermore Lead edge Root Extension (LERX) ....
 
you guyz are hopeless...
Some aircraft have high landing speed. F-105, mirage are a few examples.
Drag chutes are part of standard landing procedures with these aircraft, they COULD land without them, but would have longer landing run.
It also depends on runway conditions, whether its Icy or too hot. And Yes, Chutes help decrease tear and wear of the brakes.

Jf-17 has delta wings, so i'm guessing its landing speed is a little higher than the F-16..?
And why doesn't the pilots land JF-17 like F-16/F-15?
Use the entire body as a large air brake..

The wings are cropped-delta. And yes, they do resemble with F-16's wings.
And I wasn't talking about F-16's air brakes, i was talking about the way F-16 pilots land. They use the ENTIRE body as a large air brake. F-15 pilots also do that.

The term you were looking for is Compound delta wing;

anyway wing geometry has little to do with using the dragchute on landings.
The principle to understand is that as the aircraft makes the approach towards landing it has to slow down.

However for the wings to keep producing enough lift to keep the aircraft flying the pilot has to maintain minimum air speed.

Now if you take the aircraft's weight in account (thus the usage of composite materials) you would understand why jf17's speed maybe on the higher side and needs a dragchute.

Second principle to understand is of AoA.
The whole airframe maybe used as an air frame; but the pilot has to understand to keep the AoA in bound, else the wings will stall.

I believe these are improvements that will be made to jf-17 in time.

the F-16 didn't land the way it does from get go; only when the engineers understood the aircraft well enough did they make such innovations.
 
guys this is a JFT thread. pl dont hijack it for other issues
 
these are two articles from the Dubai Air Show - 2011. we here at PDF have knowledge of most of the information. what is clearly illustrated is the delay in the JFT production deadlines due to non-availability of soverign funds.....


Dubai 11: JF-17 Thunder – We Have Lift Off!

Posted on: November 16th, 2011.

It is likely that in years to come, the Pakistan Air Force will look back at Dubai Air Show 2011 and look upon it as the event that kick started the JF-17’s international marketing campaign. While it may have flown 5,000 miles to Farnborough in July 2010 it did not participate in the flying display and its presence comprised a bit-part in the static display. Then three jets flew 3,000 miles across China to the Zhuhai Air Show in November 2011 and enchanted the mainly Chinese audience during their first public flying display. However, if you want global interest, China probably isn’t the place to go. In June 2011, it did its bit for Pak-Turkish relations at Izmir-Cigli during the Turkish Air Force’s 100th Anniversary, but not much else.

At Dubai Air Show 2011 that all changed. There was plenty of interest from potential customers, military professionals and the international media. The Pakistan Air Force (PAK) sent along their chief of the air staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, for the first three days to support the efforts of the PAC Kamra Chairman, AVM Farhat Hussain Khan and the JF-17 Thunder Chief Project Director, Air Vice Marshal Javaid Ahmed. China sent along senior personnel from AVIC, the Chief Designer Mr Yang Wei and the CATIC Chairman, Mr Ma Zhiping. Without doubt, the JF-17 Thunder was the star of the show – it had a great location in the static display and flew every afternoon.

To date, 38 of the 42 JF-17 Block 1s have been assembled locally at PAC Kamra’s Aircraft Manufacturing Facility – with the last example expected to be delivered in April by which time, 26 Sqn at Peshawar and 16 Sqn at Minhas will have been joined by a third operational squadron. During mid-2012, manufacturing of a second batch of 50 Block 2 standard aircraft will begin.

According to the PAF CAS their enhancements over the Bock 1s will include smarter avionics, better weapons, air to air refueling, enhanced data-link and development of a dual-seat.

Further into the future it is likely the aircraft will use a newer Chinese engine, known as the Taihang, in a bid to stem any reliance on the thirsty Russian Klimov RD-93.

The JF-17 is being touted as a suitable replacement for the MiG-21, F-7, Mirage and F-5 and there are at least five countries showing serious interest. One of these is Egypt and the Egyptian Air Force CAS, Major General Abdul Aziz was seen by the author being shown around the cockpit displays of the jet in the static display. He told me: “We are very interested and have even sent a pilot to China, to train on the simulator.”

Other countries believed to be interested include, Sudan and Algeria but surprisingly the Bangladesh Air Force is not. When I spoke to BAF CAS, Air Marshal SM Ziaur Rahman at the IQPC Fighter Conference the previous week he told me he preferred the J-10 although he had also been studying the Su-30, MiG-29SMT and Gripen as an A-5 Fantan replacement.

The Pakistan Air Force Chief believes there is a market between 350-500 JF-17s, including the PLAAF. However the PLAAF is currently focusing on the introduction of the Hongdu L-15 (JJ-10) into service.

A JF-17, flown either by the display pilots, Wg Cdr Ronald or Wg Cdr Rashid put on an energetic performance during its 8 minute display, during which they pulled 8G. Two K-8Ps and two Super Mushshak were also present with each aircraft flying the flag for Pakistan in the afternoon displays too. Alan Warnes



JF-17 at Dubai

Posted on: November 29th, 2011

AFO’s Alan Warnes spent time with the Pakistan Air Force delegation at the Dubai Show in November 2011, as they embarked upon their first real international JF-17 marketing campaign.

WHILE YOU might expect one of the mega-rich high-profile international companies like Boeing, Airbus or even Lockheed Martin to steal the plaudits at the Dubai Airshow, this was not to be their year. The stars were undoubtedly the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), showing off three brand new JF-17s, two K-8Ps, a pair of Super Mushshaks and the latest acquisition to their fleet – the Saab 2000 Erieye. The PAF Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, was also present for the first three days, throwing his weight behind the JF-17 marketing effort, as were the PAC Chairman, Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan and JF-17 Chief Project Director, AVM Javaid Ahmed. They were being supported by enthusiastic representatives from China’s AVIC Company, including the JF-17 designer Mr. Yang Wei, who is also responsible for the J-10B and newly unveiled J-20. CATIC President Mr. Ma Zhiping was there too, talking to representatives of air forces interested in the new Sino-Pak fighter – as he is the man who can provide the financing.

International Marketing
Undoubtedly this was the JF-17’s finest hour in the international arena. While the JF-17’s international marketing campaign may have kicked off at Farnborough International Air Show in July 2010, the two aircraft stayed firmly rooted to the ground and so didn’t have the high profile presence it deserved. The Chinese aerospace show at Zhuhai, some four months later, may have seen the jet put through its paces in front of a massive Chinese crowd, but its first international flying display went largely unnoticed around the rest of the world. The Paris Air Show in June this year, should have elevated the JF-17’s marketing efforts into a new level but, unfortunately, the killing of Osama bin Laden just weeks before, meant the PAF was preoccupied with domestic issues, explaining how US aircraft defied their air defenses. Therefore, the visit to Paris was cancelled. Three JF-17s, along with two F-16As, were dispatched to Izmir-Cigli Air Show to celebrate the Turkish Air Force’s 100th Anniversary in early June, but this was more a show of solidarity and friendship with its age-old friend than any bid to sell the aircraft. So, finally, in November 2011, the JF-17 Thunder got to the chance to showcase its capabilities to a truly international audience.

The aircraft on static display was the 22nd to roll off the PAC Kamra production line, and was surrounded by some its armory.
Tasked with the privilege of flying the JF-17s in the flying display was Wg Cdr Ronald, a Flight Commander from 26 Squadron. Wg Cdr Ronald flew the JF-17 four times during the flying display; he is a former F-16 pilot, supported by Wg Cdr Rashid (Flight Commander from 16 Squadron) who flew on Tuesday 15th. Both wore their new ‘Thunder Solo Display’ patch proudly on their flying suits – having seen so many other display pilots at Izmir in June wearing their own official insignias.

The eight-minute solo display saw the Thunder being put through its paces, with the pilot pulling an impressive 8G during some of the maneuvers that included a vertical roll.

Wg Cdr Ronald, who flew the display four times, is a former F-16 pilot who has been with JF-17s for a year-and-a-half. His unit, 26 Squadron at Peshawar, is tasked with training pilots. When compared to the F-16, Wg Cdr Ronald says ‘the JF-17 does not lose speed in the turn as the F-16 does’. According to an F-16 engineer I spoke to, this is attributed to the curved Leading Edge Roots in front of the wings.

It must have been tough at times for both the pilots after the news filtered back to Dubai on the third day of the show that one of their colleagues, Sqn Ldr Hussain, had been killed while flying a Thunder in Pakistan. The JF-17 community is relatively young but very close and Sqn Ldr Hussain was a senior member who had served with 26 Squadron before being posted to 16 Squadron earlier this year.

On Display
Of the three JF-17s, looking very smart in their 16 Squadron ‘Black Panther’ markings on the tail and fuel tanks, two were used for the flying display, one acting as a spare (11-128) for the other (11-134); while the other example (11-130) resided in the static display, with a plethora of new weapons that are operational on the jet, including the SD-10 Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile, PL-5EII medium range air to air missile, WD-7 targeting pod, LT-2 1,000lb (454kg) laser guided bomb, C-802 anti-shipping missile and LS-6 Extended Range 1,000lb (454kg) bomb – converted from a dumb bomb into a ‘smart guided missile’ courtesy of a guidance kit which boosts its range to around 40 miles (60kms).

To date, 38 of the 42 JF-17 Block 1s have been delivered – with the last due to be handed over by March/April 2012.

Production of the first of 50 Block 2s will commence almost immediately and run up to December 2015. This latest, more capable batch will, according to Air Marshal Rao, boast ‘aircraft with more air-to-air capability, enhanced avionics, air to air refueling and a two-seat version’. The Block 3s are expected to begin rolling off the production line from 2016 onwards and will undoubtedly be enhanced further, possibly with new data-link systems, weapons and a Chinese engine.

Mr. Ma Zhiping is the President of CATIC, China’s main aircraft export agency. He will get the financing to enable developing countries to buy the Thunder – as long as it is all made in China.

JF-17 Pioneers
The PAF decided that deliveries of the JF-17 would commence before development of the aircraft was completed. This led to eight Small Batch Production (SBP) aircraft being delivered in 2007/08 to the Tactical Evaluation Flight headed by Wg Cdr Ahsen Rafiq (now a Gp Captain working with JF-17 CPD and present at Dubai). The unit’s task was to qualify all the pilots, test engineers and teams as well as evaluate the jets, test avionics, check the aircraft’s performances and formulate all the working manuals.

Eventually, in February 2010, the TEF evolved into 26 Squadron, headed by Wg Cdr Khalid Mahmood, who handed over to Wg Cdr Ahsen ul Haq in July 2011. Wg Cdr Ahsen was the first Pakistani pilot to fly the JF-17, in April 2004. Wg Cdr Hakim, who has more flying hours than anyone else on the JF-17, has been the CO of the second unit, 16 Squadron at Minhas, since it stood up in February 2011.

While all the pilots are now being trained at 26 Squadron, the new aircraft are being accepted by 16 Squadron at Minhas as they come straight off the co-located PAC Kamra production line. A third squadron is expected to stand up in January 2012.

The CATIC perspective
Mr. Ma Zhiping, the CATIC President, spoke exclusively to the author about the export chances of the JF-17: “The JF-17 Thunder will replace older generation aircraft like the A-5, Mirage III/V, MiG-21 and F-5. We understand the big competition from Europe, Russia and USA to sell aircraft, but we want to join the ‘high-tech fighter club’ even though they keep refusing new members!

“The JF-17 is a high performance fighter that has been flying with the PAF for three years now. Some countries have sent pilots to China to test aircraft. I view the JF-17 as ‘an F-16 for developing countries’. More than five countries are interested and it is gaining momentum all the time. I expect our first overseas contract to be signed next year. I know that Egypt is interested but it is complicated. The new Government cannot be seen to be investing money into their Air Force; it must focus on investing into civil life.

“I have had discussions with an African MOD official discussing JF-17. But this country does not have any fighters now. They need to have certain technologies in place and the appropriate training, so what I have suggested is they should acquire a first generation fighter – perhaps F-7 with K-8s and then gradually build their air force towards a second generation aircraft.

“Some African air forces are very young and it might not have enough pilots. We can provide a solution with organizing training courses for more pilots if they have Chinese aircraft. I can provide good financing, this is the CATIC policy. We can co-operate with banks but the customer must buy Chinese”.

“We can also promise that we will stay during times of conflict and can provide a good example. At PNS Mehran (near Karachi) in April insurgents attacked the airfield and blew up some P-3 Orions, right next to the Z-9 hangars where our people were working. However unlike the US, who pulled out the five American engineers there, we didn’t pull any of our workers out. We even flew a Z-9 in the planned morning mission!

“Finally, regarding J-10 (Pakistan version is FC-20). The aircraft is performing very well with the PLAAF but we cannot sign any contracts with foreign countries because we do not yet have an export license for the Russian engine. We must have a joint AVIC-CATIC strategy before we can do that.”

AFD
 
To date, 38 of the 42 JF-17 Block 1s have been assembled locally at PAC Kamra’s Aircraft Manufacturing Facility – with the last example expected to be delivered in April by which time, 26 Sqn at Peshawar and 16 Sqn at Minhas will have been joined by a third operational squadron. During mid-2012, manufacturing of a second batch of 50 Block 2 standard aircraft will begin.

Is No.16 really at Kamra? Weren't both based in Peshawar?
 
Earlier at many places I've pointed out / asked about Asymmetric Deflections of JFT horizontal staibilators. Can it turn / roll the way F-16/18 does using both Ailerons & horizontal staibilators. I guess nobody had any clear idea regarding this.
Then JFT participated in airshows but I never saw this thing happening. Whenever JFT rolls we only see deployed ailerons but no movement in staibilators.

But recently @najamkhan posted a JFT picture on FB page which is quite interesting.

483758_538702339508481_944269643_n.jpg


Left wing: (Aileron down + Stabilator up) resulting upward force.
Right wing: (Aileron Up + Stabilator Down) resulting downward force.
Result : Thunder rolling back to clockwise direction after turning left.

Similar case in F-16 here
050906-F-0000G-001.jpg


F-16 turning right using Aileron + Stabilators while F-4 relying on ailerons only for turning left.

I've asked same thing back in 2010 as well: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-3-a-242.html#post1031815

If Thunder really can do that then how ? JFT is not fully D-FBW controlled while this maneuver required complete computerized controlling.
@najamkhan @ANTIBODY @Oscar any comments ...
 
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Earlier at many places I've pointed out / asked about Asymmetric Deflections of JFT horizontal staibilators. Can it turn / roll the way F-16/18 does using both Ailerons & horizontal staibilators. I guess nobody had any clear idea regarding this.
Then JFT participated in airshows but I never saw this thing happening. Whenever JFT rolls we only see deployed ailerons but no movement in staibilators.

But recently @najamkhan posted a JFT picture on FB page which is quite interesting.

483758_538702339508481_944269643_n.jpg


Left wing: (Aileron down + Stabilator up) resulting upward force.
Right wing: (Aileron Up + Stabilator Down) resulting downward force.
Result : Thunder rolling back to clockwise direction after turning left.

Similar case in F-16 here
050906-F-0000G-001.jpg


F-16 turning right using Aileron + Stabilators while F-4 relying on ailerons only for turning left.

I've asked same thing back in 2010 as well: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-3-a-242.html#post1031815

If Thunder really can do that then how ? JFT is not fully D-FBW controlled while this maneuver required complete computerized controlling.
@najamkhan @ANTIBODY @Oscar any comments ...

Oo pai jan may aye POST aamb layn lyee thori kitit aaa ... Kithay gaye the Genious looki ... Barr kado .. Kider ne jeray Researchan kerday phirday san .... Kaddo apnian soursan te daso menu :argh:
 
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Oo pai jan may aye POST aamb layn lyee thori kitit aaa ... Kithay gaye the Genious looki ... Barr kado .. Kider ne jeray Researchan kerday phirday san .... Kaddo apnian soursan te daso menu :argh:

i think you answered your self doost by saying that if that maneuver requires a D-Fbw then obiviously it does have it

Later doost
 
But the Picture https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/483758_538702339508481_944269643_n.jpg is showing Asymmetric Deflections of Horizontal Stabilators.
WHY ?
why-god-why.jpg

That gives you greater roll rate.. the Left wing is being pushed down.. while the right wing is being pushed up.. so now you have two forces acting to greater a moment about the axis. Which is the same for the JF-17..
the picture that has the JF-17 caught maybe be right when he is going to level out of the turn.. So its really no biggie.

As for the D-fbw ... the system works out of hydraulics for the ailerons.. but their deflections and that of the stick is still fed into the FLCS.. which proportions the horizontal tail surfaces to move accordingly..
 
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