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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Actually FBW is not used only for augmenting stability in military planes. Boeing (777) and Airbus (320) use FBW.
For weight saving in the airliners.

When the F-16 was on paper, General Dynamics knew from the start that they had to eliminate the mechanical flight control system. There was simply too much lag time between command and displacement. The aircraft would not fly. The only things mechanical left were the hydraulic actuators.

My man, F-16 is the very very first example of unstable design and have fly by wire, very first one again

from viki

The F-16 was the first production fighter aircraft intentionally designed to be slightly aerodynamically unstable, also known as "relaxed static stability" (RSS), to improve maneuverability.[51] Most aircraft are designed with positive static stability, which induces aircraft to return to straight and level flight attitude if the pilot releases the controls. This reduces maneuverability as the aircraft must overcome its inherent stability in order to maneuver. Aircraft with negative stability are designed to deviate from controlled flight and thus be more maneuverable. At supersonic speeds the F-16 gains stability (eventually positive) due to changes in aerodynamic forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon
We knew about this from WW II. We found out that whenever an aircraft was in high speed, usually in a dive, so much aerodynamic 'clamping' forces were on the surfaces that sometime we lost a pilot simply because he does not have the human strength to overcome those forces. The aircraft was basically too stable in subsonic and became more so at increasing speed.
 
not mentioned in the linked anything like that.

About the rest of mentioned fighters having quadruplex FBW?

if so

Open EFT,or all the above mentioned fighter aircrafts in wiki and search for quadruplex..you will get your answer
 
Russians didn't know that indian pilots can come out of the cockpit and climb up the tail during flight, otherwise they would have provided that switch right on top of tail, where it can not be switched-off accidently. :)

Analouge is for yaw and roll control, and Digital is for pitch control. If Digital fails, JF17 cannot be controlled in pitch. MKI failure was due to inadvertent shut down of FBW by the Pilot. Russian provide a switch in the cockpit to shut down FBW, crazy.
 
Paragraph #4 last line it mentions the quadruplex as one of the features.
didn't have the time to read even the first few bits?

dont make laughf of your ignorance :))

digital, fly-by-wire flight control system and two hydraulic systems for backup.
the serial production aircraft having a digital quadruplex (quad-redundant) FBW system in the pitch axis and duplex (dual-redundant) FBW system in the roll and yaw axis

Two hydraulic system is analogue system

The aircraft has a composite FCS consisting of conventional controls with stability augmentation in the yaw and roll axis and a digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system in the pitch axis. read thing .....u understand meaning.

Russians didn't know that indian pilots can come out of the cockpit and climb up the tail during flight, otherwise they would have provided that switch right on top of tail, where it can not be switched-off accidently. :)

Well, during testing , everything is tested, including switching of FWB system and making plane advance manoeuvre , unlike JF-17 which crashed without it.
 
About the rest of mentioned fighters having quadruplex FBW?

if so

Open EFT,or all the above mentioned fighter aircrafts in wiki and search for quadruplex..you will get your answer

Their are three things
PICTH- (analogue) other plane have this digital too
YAW - Digital
ROLL- digital
 
Looks like some clarifications are in order...

The reason why there MUST be quadruplex, meaning four channels, of signals per axis (pitch, roll, yaw) is because of the voting process. The flight control computer (FLCC) receives four signals from each accelerometer, gyro, and cockpit command. Three are used in the voting process with one as back up. If one signal is out of tolerance, the fourth is used. A missing signal count as out of tolerance. This design was started with the F-16 and proved to be most reliable so it was adopted pretty much worldwide, civilian and military.

Is it possible to have a fly-by-wire (FBW) system in one axis but not the other two? Yes. But that one FBW-ed axis must still have a quadruplex design. The other two are probably mechanical-hydraulics.

This statement...

JF-17 Avionics | JF-17 Thunder
JF-17 has quadruplex, digital, fly-by-wire flight control system and two hydraulic systems for backup.

...Should be taken to mean all three axes are FBW-ed. The 'two hydraulics systems' simply mean there are two hydraulics systems on the aircraft: Primary and Utility.

If the J-17 has only the pitch axis as FBW-ed, then that statement is quite misleading. The hydraulics are not for back up. They are used all the time. The Primary system is for major flight controls actuators. The Utility system is for landing gear doors, nose wheel steering, and similar less flight related sub-systems. Either system can power the aircraft by itself, but not for long and not as efficient.

Stability augmentation (stabaug) is in all three axes, FBW-ed or not.

For example...

STRIKE - RAAF STYLE
Due to the nature of its role, the F-111 has a rather complicated flight control system, using hydromechanical actuators controlled by electrical signals from a stability augmentation system (SAS),...
The -111 flight control system is mechanical-hydraulics. And it got stabaug.

Stabaug is a complex loop that involves signals from altitude, speed, accelerometers, gyros, cockpit commands, and positional feedbacks from the hydraulic actuators. Stabaug is constantly going on. If an F-16 on the ground has electrical power and hydraulics applied, anyone can grab the F-16's pitot tube shaft and shake up/down the aircraft and when the rear horizontal stabs moves, that is stabaug working. The FLCC is trying to compensate for the gyros' inputs.

This statement...

Russian provide a switch in the cockpit to shut down FBW, crazy.

...Probably mean to shut off stabaug and give full authority to the pilot. That mean he has to compensate for every bit of crosswind, every bit of overshoot on the stick, every little turbulence, etc. All he has is 3,000 lbs/psi of hydraulics to assist him moving those heavy metal flight control surfaces.

It sounds crazy, but sometimes necessary, such as battle damage and the gyros are giving the FLCC funny signals. Shut off that loop and struggle on the flight home. The Americans do not have that shut off feature. We trust our avionics sh1t.
 
:pakistan: :china:


JF-17-Thunder-Multi-role-aircraft-large.jpg
 
Well, during testing , everything is tested, including switching of FWB system and making plane advance manoeuvre , unlike JF-17 which crashed without it.

JF-17 Crash was a bird strike, not an idiot pilot switching off FBW ..... hahahaha
 
Here is an example of an aftermarket stability augmentation (stabaug) system for an existing aircraft...

Cool City Avionics Receives SAS STC
The new Stability Augmentation System (SAS) improves aircraft dynamic stability in response to turbulence upsets while hovering and in flight. A SAS will typically remove upsets requiring less than 10% cyclic motion and will reduce the amplitude of larger upsets, thus requiring smaller pilot cyclic corrective inputs. The results are easier, and more accurate, hovering in turbulence and a more comfortable ride in cruise with fewer control inputs required by the pilot. The SAS uses roll and pitch actuators in series with the pilot and is transparent in operation. The SAS uses integral solid state gyros for high reliability and typically weighs less that 10 lbs. installed.
Note the highlighted.

The philosophy behind stabaug is this: Whatever the command (desire) for the aircraft, the system is supposed to make the execution of that command as stable (smooth) as possible. In order to do that, the system must have as much data about the aircraft as possible, most importantly, aircraft responses DURING that maneuver.

In level flight, and level flight is a maneuver, and it does not matter if the aircraft is fixed or rotary, the gyros and accels feeds the system those aircraft responses. For level flight, P-R-Y responses are effectively nulls. Those nulls are exactly what the aircraft commander want. Turbulence want to deviate the aircraft from what the commander want, so the system uses those nulls as a reference to command the flight control surfaces to counteract those unwanted deviations. The result is a largely 'hands-off' straight and level flight with the aircraft automatically compensating for any disturbances.

Maneuvers are where things gets confusing for the layman. Confusing but not technically complex.

For example...If the command is a pitch up maneuver, throughout the entire maneuver, from initiation to end, there are tiny moments of level flight. It can be difficult to understand, but the analogy is this: If an arc (of a circle) is examined microscopically, there are segments of straight lines. Just like on a sphere, there are microscopic flat surfaces. So throughout the entire pitch up maneuver, there are very briefs moments of level flight REGARDLESS of where the nose of the aircraft is pointing. If the nose is .0000000005 deg pitch up, at that moment in time, that is level flight, which lead back to the previous paragraph about stability in level flight when there are unwanted deviations. Then when the nose is .0000000006 deg pitch up, at that moment in time, that is also level flight, and lead back to the previous paragraph again. And so on...

The meaning of the word 'level' is not confined to horizon fix, as in eyeballing directly at the horizon. It equate to attitude and stabaug is supposed to maintain attitude stability until the next change, from .0000000005 to .0000000006 deg pitch up. So throughout this pitch up maneuver, stabaug will detect and compensate for any unwanted deviations to ensure a stable transition from .0000000005 to .0000000006 deg.

What distinguishes one stabaug system from another, as in 'good enough' to 'excellent' to 'great', depends on the hardware that provides those important aircraft responses and the software to exploit them. The analogy is how many segments of an arc can be divided to find those straight lines. A 'good enough' system, like this under $20,000 aftermarket system, may not find any microscopic straight lines at all. Just a bunch of smaller arcs, or voltage values. If an unwanted deviation, or voltage value created by a gust of wind, is greater than the ones capable of monitoring by this aftermarket system, then the aircraft will feel that deviation and the pilot will have to take control. If less, then nothing needs to be done.

There is no need to be any better than this for a helo. A helo is not going to fly at Mach or execute high g loops.

If a stabaug system can be aftermarket, that mean stabaug is very much an accessory but not a necessity. But for a high performance aircraft designed to defend national interests, stabaug must or should be built in from when the aircraft is on paper. Avionics, Aerodynamics, and Propulsion cannot be isolated from each other. This under $20,000 aftermarket system apparently does not need air data inputs -- altitude and airspeed -- and there is nothing wrong with that. But a jet fighter intent on killing an adversary must be able to dissect that arc as fine grain as possible to find as many straight lines as possible in order to provide the pilot automated flight stability to allow him to concentrate on being a killer instead of a mere 'stick actuator'. Altitude have different air density and therefore affect aerodynamic forces on the flight control surfaces. Airspeed also affect those same forces on those same surfaces. Different altitude-airspeed combinations will produce extremely diverse levels of aerodynamic forces, so a high performance stabaug system need air data inputs to calculate appropriate amount of flight control surfaces deflections to give the pilot that automated stability.

A fly-by-wire FLCS cannot be turned off. A lot of popular but low technical value articles often make that claim. It is stability augmentation which is an accessory that can be deactivated.
 
He meant aerodynamically unstable, which is done purposely to make ac more maneuverable and agile, its not a defeciency, rather an advantage.
Aerodynamics and stability are not the same thing. I used to work in flight controls stability testing, not aerodynamics, but I still need to have basic understanding of aerodynamics. And that was a loooooong time ago.

Anyway...The root meaning of 'stability' is the resistance to change/deviation. A brick is extremely stable but a ball is the opposite. Aerodynamics is about the movements of air over bodies. When we say a body is 'aerodynamic', we really mean that this body offers the least resistance to those movements of air over itself. Therefore, a plate is not very aerodynamic in one perspective, but very aerodynamic in another. Ultimately, aerodynamics is about how air flows over this plate regardless of orientation.

The 747 and F-16 are both very aerodynamic vehicles, but the 747 is a stable design while the -16 is an unstable design. Stability has more to do with how to exploit air movements over a body in order have attitude changes.
 
can Jft fire Exocet,Harpoon too??

The Pakistani Navy carries the
Harpoon missile on its naval
frigates and P-3C Orions.
The Harpoon has also been
adapted for carriage on the
F-16 Fighting Falcon , in
operation with the U.S. Air
Force, Singapore, South Korea ,
Taiwan, and the United Arab
Emirates . It has been carried
by several U.S. Navy aircraft,
including the P-3 Orion patrol
plane, the A-6 Intruder , the
S-3 Viking, the AV-8B Harrier
II, and the F/A-18 Hornet .
Pakistan also have exocet on Agosta class subs,Atlantic and Mairages 5 Naval Attach role jets....
JF-17 has not the capability to fire any of mentioned missile...
it currently can fire C-802 anti-ship missile..
after retirement of Mairage 5 it is hoped that Exocet missiles carried with them will be integrated with JFT and JFT will be induced for anti-ship role......:coffee:
F-16 will be used with Harpoon missiles if ever be required...but chances are negligible as PAF don't have harpoon missiles,Harpoons and exocet both are posessed by Pakistan Navy....:chill:
 
So we are hoping that PAC will going to produce about 100 JF-17 blk2s and dual seat as well for AJTs.
 
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