JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[mughaljee]

dual seat version can be useful

when we are going to make this ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

when we are going to make this ?

Supposedly to be coming by next year.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi, regardless of whether the PAF got screwed in the French deal, could they have even afforded it? They would be paying $15M per plane, and given Pakistan's dire economic situation, I highly doubt they could have coughed up that much money.

Moreover, educate me here. Is the SD-10 not longer ranged than the MICA and also has a half decent performance? Also is a Chinsese AESA radar not a better option than the RC400 radar (in the French deal)? Thanks!

Had it been deemed extremely necessary to have the French deal, one way or another we would have afforded it, plus the 15m per plane price was not just for avionics, it consisted of the weapons also, how much weapons and what kind of weapons there would have been in the deal are not known. Even what avionics would have been bought are not known, all we knew was that there was one radar and the Mica missile system. PAF would have looked for an affordable solution out of what was being offered, just like in the case of ROSE upgrades, where the costs were high initially but PAF asked for reduced costs and integrated few things from its own side, like the MAWS system being Pakistan assembled of a Chinese origin or the HUD being Pakistan made. Thus in French deal also, PAF may have asked for critical things from the French, while getting few things of its own.

Plus, we know the French, they want to sell in package form, they don't like selling individual systems, if we had wanted just the radar, they would have been insisting on buying other avionic stuff or the weapons too, so did Pakistan got screwed or did the French showed stubbornness by asking PAF to go for package deal which we could not afford or did not want is something to be discovered.

SD-10 has greater range, but what we have to see is the electronic package which it is holding, is it reliable enough or good enough when compared to the European option, since we all know the Europeans have more experience and knowledge in this field. Have the Chinese matched it or not or is it slightly inferior or even superior is to be seen. And then again, where is the official news that we were going for Mica system, did any PAF official said that, as i never heard anything in that regard, what i know is that Mica was offered as a package item by the French if we wanted to buy the radar from them, they wanted us to buy it, most probably not us.

But overall, i would stick with Chinese solution, they might not be as good as the American or Europeans today, but in a few years time, i am sure they would be at par or very very near to their standard.

 

[mughaljee]

Supposedly to be coming by next year.

Sir,
are we going to make twin seater "Indigniously"
like we made JF-17 with China ?
Please share some detail.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sir,
are we going to make twin seater "Indigniously"
like we made JF-17 with China ?
Please share some detail.

Well details are not yet that clear, but it would be initially made in China, later we may get the manufacturing stuff.

Making dual seat version is not that easy task, it needs time.

 

[abaseen99]

Stated what?

Please complete the last line...number 20.

We cannot help develop a capability we don’t know. Like we don’t know what kind of sensor suite is in F-22 other than what we find from open-source. Such capability/requirement generation is not Air Force job but such technology information is brought in by other means [Hannan notes: espionage or intelligence I think this is what he meant]. We all know F-22 is stealth but what else it can do is what we don’t know. JF-17s are developed because we knew what we wanted from a 4th generation fighter as we already had an experience with capability, either by existing systems or by our collaboration with other air forces. Even US Air force only comes to know new capabilities when it’s presented to it. Chinese on the other hand, have the means to bring such information and develop on such information and PAF does not. We'll see what they bring up.

 

[abaseen99]

theQ&A with Senior Officers



Question: Why PAF does not do regular exercises with PLAAF? Have we evaluated their big aircrafts? Is this true that there was some consideration for J-11s?



Answer: We don’t have to publicize all our training programs and PLAAF is a very close partner, soon we'll be flying same kind of Aircrafts so of course there has always been an interaction. PLAAF's Sukhoi platforms are nice and before J10B, there was a consideration for J-11s in limited numbers to replace Mirages but now there is no such consideration anymore.



Question: What is the trust level about kill switches in F-16s?



Answer: You know the level of trust between the two countries, there is nothing discovered as such for now but may be its possible. New electronics can be very complicated. [Author’s note: translating Pakistani customary language nuances, the officer is being diplomatic and saying that there is little trust between the two sides. PAF considers kill switches a possibility and does not dismiss it as conspiracy]



Question: Why do we have to allow F-16s to be monitored by US personnel on our bases and what do they do? Do they sit on a chair in front of F-16s all day? What is the point of having an aircraft which we cannot even fly where US does not want it to and cannot even be parked alongside other air force platforms?



Answer There is no such restriction but there are some conditions we bought the F-16s with. We have all the control on our aircraft. They are only a few aircraft.



Question: India is offered F-16INs, which is most advanced block of F-16s to-date. They come with production rights and what not and we are given only a handful of downgraded F-16s and then they blame us for slipping tech to China.



Answer: Offer to them is for political reasons and weapons offered are not necessarily to tease Pakistan but to achieve some other US strategic goal. China has its own sources of information and tech transfer and does not require Pakistan to fly a block52 to China and allow China to steal technology.



Question: Maybe it is containment of China you meant as US strategic goal for which it wants to arm India but such systems will affect Pakistan. Sir, how do you see it?



Answer: Pakistan is drifting away from reliance on USA for weapons; Block52 might not be the most advanced aircraft in PAF within a few years from now.



Question: How do you see PAKFA?

Answer: I saw the Video in Sukhoi stand. Looks nice. [Author’s note: In typical Pakistani fashion, the officer is saying that this system is still being worked on and may not see service anytime soon].



Question: Sir, will China buy JF-17s?

Answer: Yes of course, they have announced it already.



References



JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010

JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010

JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010

JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010



related to eagle hanan.........................................................................

 

[Manticore]

by
EagleHannan [pak def]


According to Airforce people, we can not invest on an Engine we can not upgrade within its physical dimentions. WS series engine is so far not ready and I believe has some kind of set backs due to which some RD93+ like RD33MK version displayed as model in Zhuhai airshow might be the upgrade. The PAF person said, the time for WS engine incorporation has come and gone on JF-17s. We are happy with current Engine. May be Chinese mature the Engine in a couple of years but by then we'll be operating the russian Engine in numbers. The joint license manufacturing of RD93 did not materialize with China and Russia because Chinese are very much concerned with the JD10s engine. It is also expected to be russian AL-31FN for coming years.
I also asked about the thrust to weight ratio. Instead i asked, isnt JF-17 under powered ? The asnwer was it is certainly not the case, thrust to weight ratios is a general ratio which does not takes into account, the aircraft's design. JF-17s do not bleed energies as much as Delta platforms do, or for that matter J-10s and Mirrages. J-10 needs much higher thrust to maintain a turn at given altitude and recover from a near still situation while JF-17s can manage such situations in the available thrust easily so in field, JF-17s not just match turn rates but are also economical. While more thrust is handy in loadouts, JF-17s fare well with any compition in all situations. Current engine is very responsive and thats another reason why the current thrust to weight ratios are excellent.


RD-93 in service with PAF are impressive according to pilots and engineers and while they would welcome a new within same dimention upgrade, I doubt they'll go for Chinese Engine. May be FC1 could have a Chinese Engine. To me its logical, while RD93 can be upgraded to RD33MK or some RD93MK, PAF MAY BE can not bring an all new Engine and return the RD93 engine to russia or scrap the earlier engines. It all comes down to spending power, which we do not have.
Even though PAF personal did not say they will not bring in WS engine but the logic i think speaks for itself.


The hard points might not be increased as I recall asking. INstead JF-17s are using dual launching rails for AAMs and AGMs. When i asked if we might see more hard points in any version, answer was JF-17s with its current hard points is optamised with wing area and flight performance so there is a possibility to add chin mounted HPs for PODs and electronics but not for any other purpose.

IMHO if PAF decides to add more hard points, it might needs to increase wing area. Lifting LERX have taken up a lot of space on wings if you notice so that version with enlarge wings might need a new engine to compensate drag and that means bigger fuselage, means NOT JF-17s. I doubt PAF will go with such complexity. ''

 

[araz]

There is nothing wrong with the info if you ask me. One instance, some were complaining JFT to be on the conservative side and less capable, needs a lot of work on all departments, less advanced and what not. Now, all of a sudden as the info emerged it became threatening to the county's interest? I have seen Eagle Hannan's post on many forums for many years now and to me, he is sensible enough to understand what should be mentioned on open forums and what not as long as some one leak the blue prints of JFT.

To add to this post by NABIL, hEagle Hannan took permission of the relevant officer prior to qouting this statement on the forum. People who are in the business of knowing these things know the relevant information in any case. Tidbits like these are only to keep armchair Generals like me and mastan happy. If someone thinks the IAF does not know what is going on in PAF and vice versa, they are seriously mistaken.
Responding to mastn Khans post, I do agree that form the IAFv/s PAF 50 planes will make very little difference. But then PAF has always had an eye on deterrence rather than offensive measures. From that perspective, it would make life more difficult for IAF in case of any aggressive designs. Being a peace loving person, I think we should be the last one to think of any aggressive posturing by either of the two countries, as the consequences would be disasterous possibly for the whole world.
Araz

 

[Arsalan]

Sir,
are we going to make twin seater "Indigniously"
like we made JF-17 with China ?
Please share some detail.

just to add brother,

Making a dual seat variant is not just about putting another seat in the plane.

The avionics are to be upgraded so that the co-pilot have his share of controls and can play his mission role. Two control panels will be installed, increased load, perhaps a slight change in aero dynamics as well.

There is no official news that the dual seat variant is under production or development but yes, this sure will happen ultimately. PAF want to induct JFT as main stay air craft and will be used in land attack and also in naval strike roles, this, will be better suited with a dual seat variant.

My guess on time line, it will be only once new and more powerful engine is finalized!

Regards!

 

[Adios Amigo]

To add to this post by NABIL, hEagle Hannan took permission of the relevant officer prior to qouting this statement on the forum. People who are in the business of knowing these things know the relevant information in any case. Tidbits like these are only to keep armchair Generals like me and mastan happy. If someone thinks the IAF does not know what is going on in PAF and vice versa, they are seriously mistaken.

Araz

Hi,

In my humble opinion, Eagle Hannan should have not come up with what we regard Tidbits.....specially on open forums.... Some of us do know whats cooking where....but one must take utmost care not to pass on any material that can potentially harm national interests..... Things that are not supposed to be known to general masses.....should not be brought out in public..... As a nation we have always worked that way and that's why managed to avoid being on the loosing side.

I would still regard Hannan's post as speculation for the major part....well at least for some his revelations..... What I disagree about his post is that he should have waited for the PAF to reveals their future plans.... and whats there for the Nation and outsiders to know.... And whats there that would not be disclosed and let the unfriendly nations guessing and keep their fact finding torches lit ... No matter what the case may be.... Speculations or facts ..... It should have not come out...the way it did.....

Secondly.... he might have asked a PAF personal...who might be/must be having a lot of inside info as its a part of their job.... But was he the right authority....to give permission to disclose.... I highly doubt that..... Though I believe PAF personal are highly professional people and would not pass on things unnecessarily... But still they should be given proper briefings and presentations before they attend any airshows.... where they have a lot of interactions with the visitors.... I hope this procedure is already there and regularly followed....

Your point about intelligence of adversary is valid.... and same holds for Pakistan.....but in the world Intelligence nothing is sufficient..... Why confessing things before time....why plucking a fruit before its ripe...why let them know and getting them assure of your real strengths and weaknesses??? Thats why he and everyone who considers to have some info should hold their horses and let PAF officially disclose things as they consider appropriate occasions. I remember Shamim Sahib.... where in one thread(probably in H2 and H4 thread) where every one was hopping the mystery to unfold whither it was a bomb or a missile.... And he was amazed with the general ignorance....he claimed to have a picture of it.... but he didn't post it while giving the reason" As PAF haven't disclosed it, so do I respect their decision and reason for it."..... Thats exactly what we all should be doing.

Remember we also are in the middle of PAF modernization.....We are currently getting deliveries.... which we have waited for decades long.... We are in the process of making new contracts....that have lingered for years.... The past was very shaky.... Its repercussions are still felt....we are in no position to get a new jolt.....Specially till the current orders get delivered...

China might not/shall not be the only option....The world should always be open to us.... And lastly In a hurry to break news.... as did Hannan in his post .... we might also overlook and harm the Interests of our ever great friend.... who have always helped us with whatever they could..... Suffice to say on this issue I guess.



Regards!

 

[Mani2020]

I think anyone who has a membership on Pakistan defence forum (or on whichever forum Eaglehannan is) should convey these messages of Adios and MK and we might get a reply to our query that why he did this and from whom he got permission and various other doubts

 

[farhan_9909]

what is the current payload of Jf-17?

 

[Shahzad Sultan]

I think anyone who has a membership on Pakistan defence forum (or on whichever forum Eaglehannan is) should convey these messages of Adios and MK and we might get a reply to our query that why he did this and from whom he got permission and various other doubts

I agree with you

 

[abaseen99]