JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool

[WAQAS119]

^^nice catch

 

[Manticore]

more info from eagle hannon




Bit of exageration here and there. I tried to carefully mention with reasons of J-11 and also mentioned, the source for this particular one is NOT Pakistani.

Block II configurations were layed down since last September (2010). I did mention them in my earlier posts.

A swash plate AESA was in testing till 2011, January and was to be redied till the planned visit of Prime Minister Gillani. However, I think the media is exagerating about 50 numbers in weeks. Impossible. I can tell that Aicrafts will be fitted with sensors and electronics in batches of 5. If they take 2 weeks per batch (fitting, testing), how will they complete 50? in 6 months makes more sense.

One thing I want to clear is, that while I am sure the sensors wil be fitted in JF-17s in Chingdu, I did not ask if all the said 50 will be flown here or a few batches to have the engineers trained and rest of the work being done at Kamra.

FC20 was indeed praised in best words and FC20 inshallah will be announced soon. I was told 34 as a first order. Deliveries should begin by december or Jan next year.

There are serious exagertion mentioned for JF-17s, RETRACTABLE IFR? Till last news, it was NOT retractable. RAM Coating is a definate.

I was being told that A darter is a serious possibility as the vendor has no problem with its integration on a chinese platform. PAF at present has the problem because Denel Dynamics wants PAF to share develpment cost. Till then PL9C is the standard WVR missile on all Chinese Platforms.

HOBS?? May be after this SRAAM issue matures.

 

[Manticore]

english.cri.cn(china radio international)jf17's programme

FC-1 Xiaolong Project a Flagship of China-Pakistan Friendship
2011-05-26 08:49:59 CRIENGLISH.com Web Editor: Mao


The FC-1 Xiaolong fighter jets, which are jointly developed by China and Pakistan, are seen by many as a symbol of the China-Pakistan friendship.

CRI reporters have visited the assembly plant in Pakistan where the jets are being produced and had a firsthand look at the joint project.

Shuang Feng has more.


The FC-1 Xiaolong fighter jets are known as GF-17 Thunder in Pakistan.

They are assembled at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, or PAC in Kamra, the world's seventh largest fighter jets assembly plant.

Air Vice Marshal Arshad Khan is the Managing Director of Kamra Avionics & Radar Factory at the PAC.

He says the success of this project lays in the willingness of Chinese original equipment manufacturer to transfer its know-how to the Pakistani side.

"When we talk about the technology transfer, it is a model that the Chinese are helping us, transfer the Know-how that they have and to reduce the cost and have a real participation. So it is a good flexibility to help us to develop our aviation industry and benefit from the previous existing development project."

He says Pakistan hopes the technology transfer will be completed by next year.

35 Chinese engineers are in the PAC to train Pakistani workers and providing technical assistance.

Gao Yan is the Chief Representative in Pakistan from China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporatioin.

"The process of the production of FC-1 Xiaolong fighter is smooth, though there are still some small problems, Pakistani workers can manage the skills and learned very fast. It is not easy for a country without aeronautics infrastructures to build planes, however under the collaboration between experts and companies from both countries, we overcame difficulties and the current production is good. "

Meanwhile, local media reported that Pakistan hopes to receive 50 more Xiaolong fighter jets within the next six months.

The Kamra Aeronautical Complex says the new deal is part of the program to replace the old equipment.

Air Commodore Nudrat Kazmi is the Managing Director of Aircraft Manufacturing Factory in PAC.

"Basically, the new deal has been signed because of the requirements which has been generated by the Pakistan Air Force. The Pakistan air force has gone through a transition period, which the old equipment are being phased out and new equipment are being inducted. This fifty craft are part of that transitional phase. And therefore, it is part of that particular program."

The Pakistan Air Force officially inducted its first FC-1 Xiaolong squadron last year.

For CRI, this is Shuangfeng.

link:
FC-1 Xiaolong Project a Flagship of China-Pakistan Friendship


0525 Jets_beijinghour_

some nice videos

 

[Manticore]

sp27 spotted

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

Kamra Avionics Factory









JF-17 test fire SD-10

Kamra Avionics Factory

 

[Dazzler]

Just for info, aircraft being manufactured/ assembled are labeled earlier as "SP" or Serial Production, added with plane number such as 1,2,3,.....25 26 etc. Later, SP is removed and year of manufacturing is written instead like 09-109 etc. Just for some folks who got confused with SP written

 

[Manticore]

sir pshamim

An excellent display by Thunders showing off their performance and capabilities. Looks like that JF-17 display is restrained owing to the fact that it is the first foreign air display by Thunder. We should see more of its capability in in futore shows.

Now a little tidbits.

The next 50 ordered may be the BLK-2 with SD-10B as its primary weapon mounted on outer wing pylon. Sd-10B is said to have more range, smaller volume and lesser weight and is more comparable to the AIM-120C5

The BLK-2 is also said to get the IRST and an Aesa Radar. The strangest news is that it may have a rotating disc. The usual perception is that AESA has a fixed dish. Why and what performance the rotating dish will add, I do not know. May be some one else can do the research and report.


Chinese have succeeded in developing avionics with DRFM and it is expected to be part of JF-17. This should immencely help Thunder in defending against WVR and BVR attack. In case of a missile attack, HUD will easily identify the missile chasing the aircraft.

It looks more likely that Blk-2 may not have any Italian avionics as was under consideration. DRFM and deplyment of SD-10B points to an all Chinese avionics which are far more superior than the ones in the ealy Thunders.

Regarding the intense debate about various maneuvers to shake the incoming missile, WVR missiles are not radar guided but IR guided and can easily be handled bu use of Chaf.

The medium , long range or BVRAAM missiles are either radar beam riders or use pulse doppler. Beam riders radar lock can be distrupted by use of Chaf and quick maneuvers. The Pulse Doppler radar guided missiles cannot be defended against easily and need ECM or various maneuvers. One of the most succesful tactic is to maneuver the aircraft in a perpendicular position against the missile trajectory. Radar will lock a target if its is either coming or flying away but tyhe lock will break once the target flies in a perpendicular direction crssing the missile trajectory.

Few friends above have inquired about additional hard points. I do not know when the infoprmation is available.

Hope I am somewhat helpful.

 

[SBD-3]

By Pshamim

An excellent display by Thunders showing off their performance and capabilities. Looks like that JF-17 display is restrained owing to the fact that it is the first foreign air display by Thunder. We should see more of its capability in in futore shows.

Now a little tidbits.

The next 50 ordered may be the BLK-2 with SD-10B as its primary weapon mounted on outer wing pylon. Sd-10B is said to have more range, smaller volume and lesser weight and is more comparable to the AIM-120C5

The BLK-2 is also said to get the IRST and an Aesa Radar. The strangest news is that it may have a rotating disc. The usual perception is that AESA has a fixed dish. Why and what performance the rotating dish will add, I do not know. May be some one else can do the research and report.

Ajmal describes the moving AESA pros and cones

PShamim Sahib , Rotating Dish for AESA though uncommon are still being used (or atleast planned to be used) . Captor-E AESA which is marked for Eurofighter Trench 3 upgrades have Mechanical moving scanner which pick ups from angles where electronic beam steering ends. So it adds extra radar coverage in both Azimuth and elevation . Its major draw back is that moving dish still contributes to RCS which it looks like Euro fighter designers does not care much about. Moving AESA together with lighter BVR AAMs at outer wing+ wing tip pylons will add a lot of BVR capabilities to JF17 which i think is right area to focus rather than focusing on WVR and close range envelope optimizations.

 

[farhan_9909]

By Pshamim

Ajmal describes the moving AESA pros and cones

^^^^^
a little more explaination of this pshamim and posts

my post in military techonology directly copied from pakdef

An excellent display by Thunders showing off their performance and capabilities. Looks like that JF-17 display is restrained owing to the fact that it is the first foreign air display by Thunder. We should see more of its capability in in f...utore shows.

Now a little tidbits.

The next 50 ordered may be the BLK-2 with SD-10B as its primary weapon mounted on outer wing pylon. Sd-10B is said to have more range, smaller volume and lesser weight and is more comparable to the AIM-120C5

The BLK-2 is also said to get the IRST and an Aesa Radar. The strangest news is that it may have a rotating disc. The usual perception is that AESA has a fixed dish. Why and what performance the rotating dish will add, I do not know. May be some one else can do the research and

Well smaller mid mounted wings of JF17 are designed for low drag at high AoA maneuvers . To compensate for low wing loading , JF17 has extra large LERX to generate enough lift to do classical
F18 style high AoA "take the first shot" moves. A...ir show at Zhuhui showed several brief high AoA moves but than it has not done yet the classical high Alpha/low speed pass yet.

I think we should expect and see such moves from JF17 some time soon as it has aerodynamics shape and control surfaces of that kind of jets.

Its flight characteristics will be more like F/A 18 rather than high energy/fast climbing F16s . F/A 18s (both hornet and super hornet) are never super impressive in solo aerial shows and you can see super hornet performance at Farnborough 2010 for comparison. In fact JF17 has much tighter turns in both demo flights and comparable agility in Zhuhui air show videos.

I suspect JF17 will evolve like super hornet with delicate balance of air to air/air to ground roles and next blocks should have more stealthiness from frontal aspect (more flatter frontal fuselage , serrated panels , a bit more rectangluar inlet ), etc. This coupled with high offbore sight IR weapons , IRST and longer envelope BVR AAMs with longer range Radar to capitalize on high AoA capabilities will be key features of JF17s to take first shots early on in real fight scenarios rather than go in close gun fights which F16 like dog fighters love to do.

PShamim Sahib , Rotating Dish for AESA though uncommon are still being used (or atleast planned to be used) . Captor-E AESA which is marked for Eurofighter Trench 3 upgrades have Mechanical moving scanner which pick ups from angles where el...ectronic beam steering ends. So it adds extra radar coverage in both Azimuth and elevation . Its major draw back is that moving dish still contributes to RCS which it looks like Euro fighter designers does not care much about. Moving AESA together with lighter BVR AAMs at outer wing+ wing tip pylons will add a lot of BVR capabilities to JF17 which i think is right area to focus rather than focusing on WVR and close range envelope optimizations.

Thanks Ajmal Saheb for explaining the rotating dish function with the AESA. One other thing that I forgot to mention is the introduction of DRFM. Chinese have succeeded in developing avionics with DRFM and it is expected to be part of JF-17.... This should immencely help Thunder in defending against WVR and BVR attack. In case of a missile attack, HUD will easily identify the missile chasing the aircraft.

It looks more likely that Blk-2 may not have any Italian avionics as was under consideration. DRFM and deplyment of SD-10B points to an all Chinese avionics which are far more superior than the ones in the ealy Thunders.

Regarding the intense debate about various maneuvers to shake the incoming missile, WVR missiles are not radar guided but IR guided and can easily be handled bu use of Chaf.

The medium , long range or BVRAAM missiles are either radar beam riders or use pulse doppler. Beam riders radar lock can be distrupted by use of Chaf and quick maneuvers. The Pulse Doppler radar guided missiles cannot be defended against easily and need ECM or various maneuvers. One of the most succesful tactic is to maneuver the aircraft in a perpendicular position against the missile trajectory. Radar will lock a target if its is either coming or flying away but tyhe lock will break once the target flies in a perpendicular direction crssing the missile trajectory.

Few friends above have inquired about additional hard points. I do not know when the infoprmation is available.

Hope I am somewhat helpful.

And a reply to me by a russian

Radar lock will NOT break of you fly perpendicular to missile trajectory thanks to consistent radar returns that will still be moving and coming from another direction. If you wanted to break pulse doppler radar lock you need to suddenly bl...eed off a shedload of speed in VERY quick time and virtually stand still. That might break the lock.

Regarding the IR missiles. Chaff doesn't work on them. Its the flares that are used against the IR seekers. Problem is that today the IR missiles are no longer single-colour designs. They are now multi-colour imaging seekers that can actually distinguish between aircraft types. The flares are thus uttely useless against such seekers. The only way to shake one off is to jam it with an IR beam.

Russians have BVR missiles that use active radar homing seekers, IR seekers and passive seekers as well as semi-active seekers for terminal stage when within 10km or so from target. R-27EP is passive seeker, R-27ER uses active radar seeker and R-27ET uses IR for endgame guidance. Until reaching that terminal stage the BVR missile receives target updates through datalink from the launching platform and flies that way until its own seeker aquires the target.

HUD doesn't display the missile approach. It will notify about approaching missile but for the direction the LCD display will be used since HUD is only for speed, altitude, attitude and heading. Maybe also the radar lock but thats not the same now that ESA radars lock onto targets within less then 2 sec from spotting it.

 

[Manticore]

jft milestones

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some new pics for me in this russian site--you can click on the pics opposite timeframe

Test pilot after the first flight on the aircraft FC-1

 

[Manticore]

jft design changes from prototype 01-02-03-04

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

prototype 1 and 4
http://dc224.*******.com/img/UtUm8zry/0.7839064060624679/1_online.jpeg
prototype 4 and 6
http://dc224.*******.com/img/185C1CLg/0.1499650750500432/12igogon.jpg

just needed to post the basic design evolution of jf17 - to stop the speculations - important to point out jf17 prototype4 had radical changes from prototype1

http://dc121.*******.com/img/sjSj2dK1/prototype_4_changes.JPG