JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool

[Manticore]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-53.html#post1302638
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-53.html#post1302867
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-54.html#post1303310

by
EagleHannan [pak def]


According to Airforce people, we can not invest on an Engine we can not upgrade within its physical dimentions. WS series engine is so far not ready and I believe has some kind of set backs due to which some RD93+ like RD33MK version displayed as model in Zhuhai airshow might be the upgrade. The PAF person said, the time for WS engine incorporation has come and gone on JF-17s. We are happy with current Engine. May be Chinese mature the Engine in a couple of years but by then we'll be operating the russian Engine in numbers. The joint license manufacturing of RD93 did not materialize with China and Russia because Chinese are very much concerned with the JD10s engine. It is also expected to be russian AL-31FN for coming years.
I also asked about the thrust to weight ratio. Instead i asked, isnt JF-17 under powered ? The asnwer was it is certainly not the case, thrust to weight ratios is a general ratio which does not takes into account, the aircraft's design. JF-17s do not bleed energies as much as Delta platforms do, or for that matter J-10s and Mirrages. J-10 needs much higher thrust to maintain a turn at given altitude and recover from a near still situation while JF-17s can manage such situations in the available thrust easily so in field, JF-17s not just match turn rates but are also economical. While more thrust is handy in loadouts, JF-17s fare well with any compition in all situations. Current engine is very responsive and thats another reason why the current thrust to weight ratios are excellent.


RD-93 in service with PAF are impressive according to pilots and engineers and while they would welcome a new within same dimention upgrade, I doubt they'll go for Chinese Engine. May be FC1 could have a Chinese Engine. To me its logical, while RD93 can be upgraded to RD33MK or some RD93MK, PAF MAY BE can not bring an all new Engine and return the RD93 engine to russia or scrap the earlier engines. It all comes down to spending power, which we do not have.
Even though PAF personal did not say they will not bring in WS engine but the logic i think speaks for itself.


The hard points might not be increased as I recall asking. INstead JF-17s are using dual launching rails for AAMs and AGMs. When i asked if we might see more hard points in any version, answer was JF-17s with its current hard points is optamised with wing area and flight performance so there is a possibility to add chin mounted HPs for PODs and electronics but not for any other purpose.

IMHO if PAF decides to add more hard points, it might needs to increase wing area. Lifting LERX have taken up a lot of space on wings if you notice so that version with enlarge wings might need a new engine to compensate drag and that means bigger fuselage, means NOT JF-17s. I doubt PAF will go with such complexity. ''

 

[Manticore]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-57.html#post1315426

Capabilities and sale of JF-17 fighter
December 8, 2010

By Air Marshal (Retd) Ayaz A Khan

The first JF-17 Thunder squadron was inducted into the PAF in 2009. The induction 150 of state of the art Pak-China built JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, will enhance operational capability of Pakistan Air Force. With improved performance for ground attack and air defense, Pakistani air power should be able to destroy the terrorist net works in North Waziristan, and elsewhere in FATA along the Pak-Afghan border. With electronic and visual detection systems and precision weapons, stocks of illegal munitions hidden by the criminals in caves could be blasted, and terrorist hideouts leveled. Its enhanced air-land and air defense capability will be assets to ward-off external aggression.

The news that the PAF could buy over 250 JF-17 Thunders therefore is welcome. It is a beautifully designed, affordably priced, jointly built multi-role fighter aircraft, which should attract customers from all over the world. The decision to sell Pak manufactured JF-17 Thunder fighters abroad will enable several African, Latin American and Asian countries, including Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries to place orders now to benefit from early orders for this fine fighting machine.

The JF-17 is a joint Chinese-Pakistani project that aimed to reduce Pakistan’s dependence on western countries for advanced fighters. By fielding a low-cost multi-role lightweight fighter with modern electronics PAF has taken a big leap and bold step to bridge the numerical and qualitative gap with the Indian Air Force, which remains a primary threat. The West dominated arms market would be challenged in days to come by China, India and Pakistan subject to their ability to master aviation technology, and manufacture quality defense products, especially aircraft. During the recent Farnborough Air Show in England two JF-17 Thunder fighters on display were admired by the thousands of defense experts and received high accolades from specialists. Farnborough is show case of the world aviation industry. The Air Staff took a bold decision to fly out two JF-17 Thunder fighters to the UK, and put them on display at Farnborough. It is therefore a matter of satisfaction that several countries including Turkey have evinced interest to procure and buy JF-17 Thunder fighters from Pakistan.

China will soon decide to procure the JF-17 Thunder fighter for the PLAAF-The Peoples Liberation Army Air Force. Beijing needs to expedite its decision to induct the JF-17 Thunder fighter into the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). If China delays procurement, other nations could do the same. Though the Pak-China made JF-17 Thunder should be evaluated and assessed on merit. China offered to sell twenty JF-17 Thunder fighters to the Myanamar (Burma) Air Force. The generals led government observed that the MAF will buy it after PLAAF inducts it for operational use. After Pakistan signed an agreement for the first 42 operational JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex -PAC was seeking additional agreements with Western firms for avionics and weapons upgrades. Fed up with Western foot dragging Pakistan has decided instead to install advanced China made avionics including radars, and BVR missiles. The excessive delay in India’s competing Tejas fighter is because of project delays in the procurement of foreign component, especially engines. Dependence on the West must be cut to the minimum to give a boost to the indigenous manufacture of aircraft. The excellent Pakistan and China cooperation has helped on schedule manufacture and supply of Thunder fighters to the PAF.

PAF has now offered to sell JF-17 Thunder fighter to friendly countries. Such offers off-course will be in cooperation with China and with Chinese approval. FJ-17 Thunder fighter is expected to be priced around US dollars 20 million. Similar American, French, Swedish fighter aircraft are in the price range of 40 to 60 million dollars each. While sale to friendly countries is a good idea, selling and buying defense equipment is a highly complex activity. America does not allow sale of weapons to countries it does not approve off. Islamic Republic of Iran could be a good prospective buyer of Pakistan made defense equipment. But despite good relations, Pakistan has never offered Pakistan made weapons for sale to Iran. Pakistan being under US fiscal obligation and political pressure is unlikely to offer JF-17 Thunder for sale to Iran. The two countries have set up a joint JF-17 marketing agency to promote international export sales, and their offering has received initial interest from Turkey and some other countries. Major General Muhammad Farooq, director general of Pakistan’s Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO), described the JF-17 in early April as an ideal “choice for countries which are mindful of their finances.”

Marketing and sale of industrial goods and defense products needs high organizational and logistics competence and marketing expertise. In Western countries especially in America the defense industry is in private hands. All manufacturing and trading corporations hire qualified and experienced managers to handle sale and marketing. Unqualified bureaucrats or military officers learn on the job, and lack marketing sense or expertise. Many foreign companies employ Asians viz Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Koreans and Pakistani’s in their sale and marketing departments. They are hard working professionals, who earn millions for the companies they work for and are paid well.

Equally important is the defense sale organization tasked to sell JF-17 Thunder fighter and defense equipment manufactured in Pakistan. Ministry of Defense already has the all important Secretary of Defense and Secretary of Defense Production. One more division, under a Secretary Aviation Marketing may be added to handle sale and purchase of aircraft, radars, related avionics and spares. The US, European countries and Russia have high expertise in the field of defense marketing. Pakistan and China will have to compete in this highly competitive field. And it will be impossible to do so without marketing and logistics infrastructure and expertise.

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

Looks like we will buy brazilian Piranha 2 aswell...


The MAA-1 Piranha 1 is a short-range infrared homing missile and the first air-to-air missile developed by Brazil for its Air Force and Navy. It was designed to replace the AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles

Pakistan Air Force - Unknown number of MAA-1A Piranha 1 missiles delivered in June 2010.

Letter of Intent signed by Pakistan to procure the MAA-1B Piranha 2 .
MAA-1B is a Brazilian air to air missile produced by Mectron. This new version of the Piranha, fits as a 4th generation missile with "off boresigh", about 90°, and a greater range of 50%, as well as greater maneuverability achieved by changing the aerodynamics of the flight controls of the original missile. The MAA-1B is capable of being appointed by the aircraft's radar or the HMD helmet. It will be a 4th generation missile, Brazilian air force has entered in the A-DARTER program and is already developing a 5th generation missile to be used with the MAA-1B.
--wiki


PL-12G [no source]
PAF has bought SD-10's and will buy its most modern Version PL-12G which has Improved range , design , seeker , warhead and HOBS capability

A-Darter [south africa/brazil]
Sources indicate an initial 100-200 units could be sold to international users, and Pakistan is viewed as a possible buyer.

MAR-1
MAR-1 is an anti-radiation missile (ARM) developed by Brazil's Mectron.In December 2008 the Brazilian government approved the sale of 100 MAR-1 missiles to the Pakistan Air Force in a contract worth $108 million

more here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/19447-air-air-missiles-command-air-4.html

http://dc229.*******.com/img/trQHL9-s/0.6240803892003205/1290772592_64407.jpg

http://dc229.*******.com/img/58UhVEyL/0.862924305596782/jf17_new_6.jpg


http://dc248.*******.com/img/z3TRAEbG/0.8991813701548091/jf17_new_11.jpg

http://dc196.*******.com/img/7mql-AjP/0.45039354505861406/jf17_new_12.jpg

 

[Manticore]

http://dc227.*******.com/img/lVzb542h/0.9040049872421492/Copy_of_10113018090aa2683d3d0a.jpg

http://dc226.*******.com/img/27mffrHk/0.9405132173450717/Cockpit_LCA.jpg


'ripples'
http://dc229.*******.com/img/lfB9Qx_Z/0.9274683780520224/Copy_of_DN-SD-07-00030.jpg


indians are saying that
-- jf17 has crude finishing around the cockpit and landing gear
--oil leakage which should never be seen
--oil canning/ripples etc

this pic has caught there fantasy

Thanks ANTIBODY for finding the photo of the USN plane. INTERESTING.

Ripples are visible on the above photo of the JF-17 - I can just make them out - it will depend on the resolution of your pc screen.

And it looks like the same ripples have been discussed oo a different forum before: Aircraft Skin Buckle? — Tech Ops Forum | Airliners.net

And in my post the other day, my theory (which I am doubting now) was along these lines and is supported here Aircraft engineers turn to biomimicry for greener designs

So we could say the JF-17 skin sooo sooo advanced it active and adapts IN REAL TIME to cancel out turbulance.

When I replied a couple of days ago, I thought of another line of research that makes use of pietzo______ (something) and and allows the aeroplane's wings to change shape (slight curves and twists) to optimise perfomance for a given flight and loading situation!

ripples discussion

 

[Manticore]

In the early MiG-35's demo the wrinkles were visible

In JF-17 the probable cause of those wrinkles might be buffeting of the LERX due to the excessive vortices--just a weak speculation






Having spoken to engineers about the phenomenon, rarely does quilting get so bad as to require re-skinning, and the 747 and 757 pics are fairly typical and not a problem.

Quote:"Oil canning" is merely the flexing or buckling in and out, of a thin
flat panel, such as a portion of aircraft skin, perpendicular to the
plane of the panel. It got the name from the old style oil cans which
would spurt a drop oil out the spout when you pushed on the bottom
with your thumb (flexing the bottom of the can). The cans are shaped
generally like half of a sphere with a thin, straw like spout. I'm
sure you've seen them even if you don't remember it just yet.
The effect is not always bad, since once the panel moves or "pops"
thru, it becomes stable again, or pops back when the force that caused
it is released (like the oil can bottom did). If it occurs at a place
where the airstream is buffeting the skin somewhere, it can cause
fatigue cracks quickly at rivets, etc. Lots of times it is harmless.
It just depends on where it is and what is causing it. It can be found
by the sound it makes (like a drum head). The oil cans would make a
clicking sound. Flap skins and firewalls are places that come to mind.
It can also be spotted at locations of "smoking" rivets. Fatigue
cracks are fun to find too Wink.
Only way to resolve it is to eliminate or change the force
causing it, or brace or modify the structure somehow. Most production
planes have had any severe cases resolved already. However, time or
bad repairs can cause it to occur. Obviously it can effect
airworthiness when it damages skins, etc; lots of times it is just a
nuisance (the noise).

It applies to airplanes made of sheet metal, specifically those
areas of the structure that have flat areas. If that flat area is
large enough, and has no stiffeners behind it, it will tend to flutter
in and out like the skin on a drum and cause rumbling noises.
Most of the time it's not critical, just annoying, and doesn't look
good on the airplane, since the skin will be a bit wavy. If the skin
vibrates enough, though, it could fatigue along its fastener points
(rivets) and crack.
airtalk.org

http://dc338.*******.com/img/HGsUfXKi/0.09090908958061328/0923897_2.jpg

http://dc236.*******.com/img/IbMVI37X/0.25313856358223663/0923897.jpg

ripples contin

 

[Manticore]

check the finishing of jf17 as compared to the fighters triples its price tag

http://dc227.*******.com/img/lVzb542h/0.9040049872421492/Copy_of_10113018090aa2683d3d0a.jpghttp://dc236.*******.com/img/fsmuqav9/0.9159426104775861/78_online.jpghttp://dc236.*******.com/img/gSRHgy46/0.7571287673003219/n5_online.jpghttp://dc239.*******.com/img/8ooHKqxc/0.41318202902815426/63_online.jpg

http://dc239.*******.com/img/punOraP9/0.3613491179908679/1_2.jpg
http://dc239.*******.com/img/0xiPatzP/0.7547195968145674/2_2.jpghttp://dc239.*******.com/img/FTNS1kQM/0.6903700543153224/3_2.jpg
http://dc239.*******.com/img/b-VB34fh/0.1795659313154202/4_2.jpg

now compare and tell me how drastically crude is jf17s finishing according to my indian friends

i can see the same ''rusting/oil dripping marks'' at the belly and clear bounderies 'less flushing' around the landing gear in most fighters

moreover it should be noted that the angles from which the photos are taken might affect the perception of bad finishing

also our jf17s have lighter paint work

the rusty 'oil driping marks' , might just be due to different pods being attatched in the middle region of the fighter

ripples contin...

 

[Manticore]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-64.html#post1344686

AviationWeek.com

Pakistan Expands Fighter Force

Dec 21, 2010

By Robert Wall
London


The Pakistani air force is gearing up for a major expansion of its JF-17 single-engine fighter force.

The service just began taking delivery of the first batch of Chengdu FC-1/JF-17s (now produced in Pakistan) this year, with about half of the 42 ordered now in place. With one squadron operational, service officials now plan to set up a second unit.

What’s more, the Pakistani government hopes to order a second batch of 50 fighters next year, says Air Commo.Junaid, who is involved in the JF-17 project. Pakistan is looking for enhanced features on the second batch, although the exact requirements have not been spelled out.

Both South African and French companies have shown interest in updating the JF-17’s avionics and weapons package. After looking at new candidates, the preferred option appears to be staying with Chinese suppliers, Pakistani officials suggest.

Despite the interest in enhancement, Junaid notes that the avionics package fielded on the baseline JF-17 has been one of the positive surprises. They have performed “better than expected,” he says, and pilot transition to the new aircraft has proceeded smoothly. And operations in the high mountain regions have not posed a problem, he asserts.

Fleet development is still at a relatively early stage, though. The focus so far has been on familiarizing pilots and maintenance crew with the new equipment. Preparations are underway to fully qualify crews for air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. Full operational capability is not far off, Junaid notes, adding that progress is much better than when the air force introduced its F-16A/B Block 15s in the early 1980s.

In parallel, the service has been taking delivery of the newest batch of Lockheed Martin F-16s in the Block 52 configuration. The last of these aircraft were delivered to the Shahbaz Air Base on Dec. 13. The air force has fielded 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds under the so-called Peace Drive I program.

The Pakistani air force argues that the precision strike features of the latest F-16s is bolstering operations in the contested border region with Afghanistan, such as South Waziristan, and the federally administered tribal areas.

The service also is awaiting completion of the ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft, which was rolled out last month at Hanzhong, China. The 2008 contract calls for delivery of four systems.

Meanwhile, fielding all the equipment is forcing the service to rethink its operational concepts, particularly regarding how to employ the various new tools in an integrated fashion, Junaid says.

Pakistan also continues to work on enhancing its unmanned aircraft inventory. It is already operating the Italian Selex Galileo Falco, but Italy has apparently been reluctant to allow the arming of that UAV. As a result, Pakistan is now acquiring armed CH-3s from China, which are still in development.

Photo: Alan Warnes

http://dc281.*******.com/img/55aAmPFm/0.5545117662113094/JF-17_User_countries.png
projected JF-17_User_countries

 

[Manticore]

uptill p67 thread4

 

[Manticore]

Following are some updates by eaglehannon





Confirmed: The 50 new jets will be Block 2 JF-17s. The structure parts will be flown to Chinese for final avionics and testing assembly. Unlike the first block where all avionics were assembled at Kamra. I think thats why Media is confusing "Made in China". The reason is new radar readied by Nanjing Institute with complex assembly procedures. Sensor suit is an upgrade and all Chinese.
I am not sure about this emergency bases thing in Media. I think its wrong news. but I have not confirmed it. This posted info is from a senior person as our ordinary pilots an engineers can not comment on anything as such for obvious reasons. I dont write any account of interaction with them as there has earlier been an incident of disclosure some times back and the blamed person had to bear consiquences (I was not party in that. Someone here was he knows it)

Confirmed: Current block 1s will not be upgraded. It will be replaced by block2s at the end of 150 jets. A new squadern will be raised for the sole purpose of training foreign buyers of this aircraft and rest of the examples will move to CCS to replace ageing Aircrafts. Block 2 might be the last version of JF-17s. The block2 radar (will disclose name and improvements once I get a nod from someone senior... or not) shall be the standard radar for all JF-17s. Improvements will all be based on this standard version. Block 1 radar carrying planes are exception.

Confirmed: FC-20's 90% pending issues are finished. The wings are slightly modified and are composite structures (above 50%). Canard foreplane's hight is slightly changed.
I am sure the tactics for this plane are already in place and this Aircraft will see front lines immediately on induction (my estimate: this years end or starting mid next year). FC-20 is a excellent platform as per pilots. Confirmed by the ones who did it, it does perform that SU30's famous manuver and recovers much faster than it.

Confirmed: SD-10B is already inducted. Numbers are being made up. It is indeed confirmed that side by side performance comparissons put it on par with Aamram120c5s. All JF-17s and FC20s will carry it for next 5 years before a new version is presented. (Confirmed existance of a NG Medium range missile programe by Chinese for their stealth version). The Meteor is out of equation as vendor will now allow integration with Chinese platorms.

From a Chinese source: There is still a posibility of J-11B with russian engine for PK Navy. I said it before in 2009. PAF comment was, its all dependant on WS10 engine which may be common in FC20 and J11B. I wish it materialize as I have heard it over and again by senior navy officers. Surface assets are vulnerable to attack. I remember posting a detailed conversation with a senior navy officer some times ago.

Inshallah will post the postables from my recent interactions as I find time.

 

[Manticore]

[

Google Translate

prototype 1 and 4
http://dc224.*******.com/img/UtUm8zry/0.7839064060624679/1_online.jpeg
prototype 4 and 6
http://dc224.*******.com/img/185C1CLg/0.1499650750500432/12igogon.jpg

just needed to post the basic design evolution of jf17 - to stop the speculations - important to point out jf17 prototype4 had radical changes from prototype1

 

[Manticore]

proto6

proto4

 

[Manticore]

proto1

 

[Manticore]

some more tidbits from eagle hannon




Pakistan has been impressed with SD-10 and there is a commitment from Chinese side to further upgrade the missile. To my info, Chinese in recent presentations have given road map for upgrades and PAF agrees to it.

J-11 might be the part of political decission. I did not know how to put it but with Gawader definately going to Chinese. They will be given bases symbolicaly (mark my words, this has already been planned). I am sure they'll announce it and then Chinese will request to have a base which will be given. J-11 might come this way. Operating with Pakistanis. PAF high level officials have already made deal for FC-20 and New JF-17s, finalized a month ago and waiting for Gillani to come and announce a success story blah blah.

Chinese base in Balochistan which Shall be the BASE for open help Pakistan might need from China.

China will provide FC20. The B version of J-10, this year. 34 might be the initial number. The radar is AESA. Wait for the news to break inshallah.

----

JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates


Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.

The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.

The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:

1. AESA radar

2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.

3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.

4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).

Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.

These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.

The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.

Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.
Grande Strategy

some more tidbits from eagle hannon

 

[hatf IX]

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ripples