JF-17 Block III Multirole Fighter

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi,

Most of the dog fights are in the range of 350-450 knots.

The F16 hardly ever flies at its top speed due to flex in the canopy. Speed is for show---.

JF17 has sufficient speed for what it is designed for.

The old F-104 was also a Mach 2 plus interceptor---and that is all it could do---fly fast---was a worthless aircraft---with a stall speed of around 300-350 knots.

Mig 21 Bison has Speed of Mach 2 and very good acceleration
It also has limited Range and limited LOITER time

SO for a plane with limited Range and limited Loiter time
Mach 2 Speed is a good thing

It can enter a Combat area ; Fire its AAMs and just scoot away

 

[Chak Bamu]

Thunders dsi is preventing it from go beyond 1.6 mach ... above that will create vibration harmful for the plane

Your interpretation is not correct. The design of DSI loses its effectiveness beyond Mach 1.8. That does not mean that DSI prevents an aircraft from going higher than Mach 1.8. With a big enough engine, Mach 2 is certainly possible while having DSI. The engine would just be inefficient at that speed due to the ingestion of supersonic airflow.

DSI is used to reduce radar cross section and a result was a compromise on speed ...

DSI's main purpose is to reduce weight. RCS reduction is an important, but secondary consideration.

 

[The Accountant]

Your interpretation is not correct. The design of DSI loses its effectiveness beyond Mach 1.8. That does not mean that DSI prevents an aircraft from going higher than Mach 1.8. With a big enough engine, Mach 2 is certainly possible while having DSI. The engine would just be inefficient at that speed due to the ingestion of supersonic airflow.

Ok may be i am wrong the impact on going beyond 1.6/1.8 on DSI ... but i was sure about that going 2.0 mach with DSI is not good for plane ...

Thanks for correcting me. Can you please also quote me the source where i can study DSI impact on engine efficiencies ?

 

[Chak Bamu]

Mig 21 Bison has Speed of Mach 2 and very good acceleration
It also has limited Range and limited LOITER time

SO for a plane with limited Range and limited Loiter time
Mach 2 Speed is a good thing

It can enter a Combat area ; Fire its AAMs and just scoot away

You post as though PAF planes would be flying ducks waiting to be shot down by the great and mahaan (ill-named) Bison. Mig-21 is pretty much useless in this era. It can not do BVR, it can not spend more than 40-45 minutes in air even at mid-subsonic speeds, it is highly vulnerable to Radar-guided missiles. In this day and age it can not even do point defense very well, not to talk of interception. Why are you singing its praises?

Ok may be i am wrong the impact on going beyond 1.6/1.8 on DSI ... but i was sure about that going 2.0 mach with DSI is not good for plane ...

Thanks for correcting me. Can you please also quote me the source where i can study DSI impact on engine efficiencies ?

The information is here on this forum. A few years ago a paper with detailed air-flow analysis of JF-17 DSI was shared here. It was a good read. You shall have to search for it.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

Mig-21 is pretty much useless in this era. It can not do BVR,

The Bison is BVR engagement capable:

Kopyo has an air-to-air track-while-scan (“SNP”) mode, it tracks 10 targets, and engages 2 simultaneously. The simultaneous engagement capability has been demonstrated. It retains a single target track mode. Search range is 57km headon and 25 – 30 km pursuit, with a tracking range of 45km, against a 3 sq m RCS target. It has vertical scan, automatic HUD scan (+- 14°), optical (pilot selected target on HUD) and helmet close combat modes.

http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig21/mig21-kopyo-radar/
It carries the R77 for such engagements

it is highly vulnerable to Radar-guided missiles.

It's much less vulnerable to Radar guided missiles than other MiG 21 variants owing to reduced Radar signature and an integral Elta EL/L-8222 Electronic Warfare Jamming Pod:

The Elta EW pod is a modern advanced power-managed system ECM jamming pod including an internal integral receiver. Its main task is to increase survivability of the aircraft during operations in a hostile electromagnetic weapon systems environment.

It does point defense extremely well.

In this day and age it can not even do point defense very well, not to talk of interception. Why are you singing its praises?

Because it deserves it?

The Flanker wasn’t the only aircraft that the Eagle’s drivers faced in mock air-to-air combat: “The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia,” Snodgrass explained to AW&ST.

Low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate, acceleration and the helmet mounted sight combined with high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles were among the factors that made the upgraded MiG-21 a deadly adversary for the U.S. F-15s.

https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The Bison is BVR engagement capable:

http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig21/mig21-kopyo-radar/
It carries the R77 for such engagements

It's much less vulnerable to Radar guided missiles than other MiG 21 variants owing to reduced Radar signature and an integral Elta EL/L-8222 Electronic Warfare Jamming Pod:

It does point defense extremely well.

Because it deserves it?

https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/

Many thanks for this ; you saved me a lot of effort

@Chak Bamu The point that was being discussed with Mastankhan
was whether MACH 2 Speed is useful or not

My point was that Mig 21 uses its Mach 2 Speed and Acceleration as its strengths
in addition to small size and agility in Air combat scenarios

Since Mig 21 has limited loiter time ; it has to dash and slash its opponent
and run away

On its own ; A single Mig 21 is a weak plane

But as a part of a Mixed Fighter Force it becomes a force multiplier
with its HMDS ; HOBS R 73 and Elta Jammer

 

[HRK]

The Bison is BVR engagement capable:

http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig21/mig21-kopyo-radar/
It carries the R77 for such engagements

And it's much less vulnerable to Radar guided missiles than other MiG 21 variants owing to reduced Radar signature and an integral Elta EL/L-8222 Electronic Warfare Jamming Pod:

It does point defense extremely well.

Because it deserves it?

https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/

plz cut this crap ...

http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default...mpliance_Defence_Air_Force_Report_38_2015.pdf

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NO NEED TO REPLY MY POST OR POST ANY MORE OFF TOPIC POST

 

[Stephen Cohen]

plz cut this crap ...

http://www.cag.gov.in/sites/default...mpliance_Defence_Air_Force_Report_38_2015.pdf

=====================================

NO NEED TO REPLY MY POST OR POST ANY MORE OFF TOPIC POST

In India CAG reports are Deliberately " cooked up and made up "

The purpose being Disinformation and deception
and to garner more funds from Govt

They are Public reports

No Armed force leaks its secrets publically

The strength or weakness of any plane is revealed in its exercises

And Mig 21 is praised a lot by its pilots and the opponents during Exercises

 

[BetterPakistan]

Hi,

Mach 2 is not important---. EW suite is more important---. Weapons are more important. Fire control radar is more important---.

Mach 2 means " nothing ".

Its been months since I am hearing about Mach 2. You're right speed doesn't matter even Rafale speed is nearby JF-17.

Did you saw ACM Aman interview with PTV?? He said PAF is dealing with a few countries for 5th gen jet and he also said that we are trying to negotiate for those 8 BLOCKED F-16. Any update on it?

 

[HRK]

In India CAG reports are Deliberately " cooked up and made up "

The purpose being Disinformation and deception
and to garner more funds from Govt

They are Public reports

No Armed force leaks its secrets publically

The strength or weakness of any plane is revealed in its exercises

And Mig 21 is praised a lot by its pilots and the opponents during Exercises

plz cut this crap ...

 

[syed_yusuf]

In India CAG reports are Deliberately " cooked up and made up "

The purpose being Disinformation and deception
and to garner more funds from Govt

They are Public reports

No Armed force leaks its secrets publically

The strength or weakness of any plane is revealed in its exercises

And Mig 21 is praised a lot by its pilots and the opponents during Exercises

\
for all those years, may be 15 if i am not worng, indian posters were boosting about bison, it turn out to be a chooha. even PAF f-7PG looks super dooper in front of all of IAF fighters except su-30MKI. and that could be handled with serious help from AEWCS and Link system that is fully integrated with f-7PG. some times i wonder, whey the heck IAF have been doing with all the money it is getting from the government.

 

[Imran Khan]

it was jf-17 thread

 

[BATMAN]

Since there are many design engineer on this forum with lots of prior experience with lm, dassault, BAE etc so I will ask a question to educated myself how is it a mirage 3 of 50s era with thrust to Weight ratio of .68 in Clean configuration go to Mach 2 while f35 with 1 plus or so only achieves 1.6 ?

Thrust is comparable to Torque. Torque is calculated based on requirement of weight to carry/pull and desired acceleration.
Mach number represent speed. Speed of compressor fan and drag of a/c effects it.
Of course one quantity is considered constant while dealing with other, because they compliment the end result. However, both are two different quantities.

 

[Sameer25]

Bhai

AESA radar + Helment Mounted Display + IRST + Mach 2.0 + Better Avionics + More payload and Block 3 is truly going to be latest 4++ generation fighter jet.

is the Helmet Mounted Display gonna be like the one in the F-35 because that one is amazing and i think they are going to make it more maneuverable

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What posters are missing here is that the MIG21 is a 60's aircraft like the Mirage 3 when mach 2 ++ was the speed to be.

None of the aircraft--the Mig21 or the F16---fully loaded can do mach2.

Then flying at mach 2 is a very bad speed when your chasing missile is doing mach3---.

That means---higher your speed of flight---the lesser capability you will have to turn and evade a missile coming from behind---which is---at mach2---you can only fly straight as an arrow---.