JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ever since the first Pak related defence forums sprouted in the early days of the internet, I had been avidly following them in my young days. I was a contributor to the now defunct Pakdef, but till recent have been a lurker on this forum since it popped up. I have had an interest in defense matters as well as having worked as a consultant to a middle eastern security agency. Ever since the current regime was installed, and I seem to have completely lost interest in pak defense related matters and equipment. Why, because the generals have shown their true colors and who their loyalty is to. What is the purpose of all these hi tech toys when the military leadership will roll over from the orders of a single junior state department official.
The US does not appear to have any concern or fears of Pak nuclear program as they used to, why because they probably know everything they need to know via traitors in our military who will sell their souls for a green card. Heck even previous heads of Pak strategic forces are living in the US. What did they compromise to get the green card.
When did all this treachery start, from the time Musharraf or afterwards, or has it always been there..
The Pak foot soldier and junior officers are second to none, but army top leadership leave a lot to be desired…

I feel where you're coming from.

 

[JamD]

Ever since the first Pak related defence forums sprouted in the early days of the internet, I had been avidly following them in my young days. I was a contributor to the now defunct Pakdef, but till recent have been a lurker on this forum since it popped up. I have had an interest in defense matters as well as having worked as a consultant to a middle eastern security agency. Ever since the current regime was installed, and I seem to have completely lost interest in pak defense related matters and equipment. Why, because the generals have shown their true colors and who their loyalty is to. What is the purpose of all these hi tech toys when the military leadership will roll over from the orders of a single junior state department official.
The US does not appear to have any concern or fears of Pak nuclear program as they used to, why because they probably know everything they need to know via traitors in our military who will sell their souls for a green card. Heck even previous heads of Pak strategic forces are living in the US. What did they compromise to get the green card.
When did all this treachery start, from the time Musharraf or afterwards, or has it always been there..
The Pak foot soldier and junior officers are second to none, but army top leadership leave a lot to be desired…

This started very early on in Pakistan's history and not with Musharraf's regime. It might be simplistic but I view our military leadership as the spiritual successor of the British colonial masters - there's a lot of things that can be said to support this viewpoint. The good news is that I can say what I just said without getting banned on this forum. I couldn't have done this 3 months ago and would've been called traitor and banned. So I'm glad that a large number of people are opening their eyes to reality. The bad news is that Pakistans economy is in the gutter and there is very dangerous political polarization in the country that is feeding into the economic woes. Regardless of where you stand on political lines the people of Pakistan need to come together. We can't have Pakistan divided into three political sections (see 2018 election results) and those three sections call each other chor traitor while the actual elite laughs at all three sections and plays everyone each other.

 

[MastanKhan]

Ever since the first Pak related defence forums sprouted in the early days of the internet, I had been avidly following them in my young days. I was a contributor to the now defunct Pakdef, but till recent have been a lurker on this forum since it popped up. I have had an interest in defense matters as well as having worked as a consultant to a middle eastern security agency. Ever since the current regime was installed, and I seem to have completely lost interest in pak defense related matters and equipment. Why, because the generals have shown their true colors and who their loyalty is to. What is the purpose of all these hi tech toys when the military leadership will roll over from the orders of a single junior state department official.
The US does not appear to have any concern or fears of Pak nuclear program as they used to, why because they probably know everything they need to know via traitors in our military who will sell their souls for a green card. Heck even previous heads of Pak strategic forces are living in the US. What did they compromise to get the green card.
When did all this treachery start, from the time Musharraf or afterwards, or has it always been there..
The Pak foot soldier and junior officers are second to none, but army top leadership leave a lot to be desired…

Hi

The level that it is at now started with Gen Kiyani.

I have written extensively on this forum many a years ago that Pakistan nucs have been neutered.

Much earlier, it was Gen Ayub Khan--- non action during 1962 conflict.

It was obvious who the master was, Zia thought he had the Americans by the balls, but it was otherwise.

Ashamed Veg was a fool out and out. The one who died of heart attack on treadmill was not in control of the Americans.

Few others had too big of an ego and prude and US did not bother with them much, as they did not count to anything substantial.

 

[WotTen]

Hi

The level that it is at now started with Gen Kiyani.

I have written extensively on this forum many a years ago that Pakistan nucs have been neutered.

Much earlier, it was Gen Ayub Khan--- non action during 1962 conflict.

It was obvious who the master was, Zia thought he had the Americans by the balls, but it was otherwise.

Ashamed Veg was a fool out and out. The one who died of heart attack on treadmill was not in control of the Americans.

Few others had too big of an ego and prude and US did not bother with them much, as they did not count to anything substantial.

I agree with you that Pakistani generals have been under American control but I think the US is still not 100% sure of controlling our nukes. If the US felt that they have neutralized our nukes, they would have given India the go-ahead to take AK/GB and physically cut off Pakistan from China.

Probably getting off-topic in this thread...

 

[PakFactor]

This started very early on in Pakistan's history and not with Musharraf's regime. It might be simplistic but I view our military leadership as the spiritual successor of the British colonial masters - there's a lot of things that can be said to support this viewpoint. The good news is that I can say what I just said without getting banned on this forum. I couldn't have done this 3 months ago and would've been called traitor and banned. So I'm glad that a large number of people are opening their eyes to reality. The bad news is that Pakistans economy is in the gutter and there is very dangerous political polarization in the country that is feeding into the economic woes. Regardless of where you stand on political lines the people of Pakistan need to come together. We can't have Pakistan divided into three political sections (see 2018 election results) and those three sections call each other chor traitor while the actual elite laughs at all three sections and plays everyone each other.

I agree with your sentiments a lot can be said about Pak Army being a post British legacy. It was the one unifying force but the face it’s shown is not what it is when there ego is on the line they’ll drop kick the country.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This started very early on in Pakistan's history and not with Musharraf's regime. It might be simplistic but I view our military leadership as the spiritual successor of the British colonial masters - there's a lot of things that can be said to support this viewpoint. The good news is that I can say what I just said without getting banned on this forum. I couldn't have done this 3 months ago and would've been called traitor and banned. So I'm glad that a large number of people are opening their eyes to reality. The bad news is that Pakistans economy is in the gutter and there is very dangerous political polarization in the country that is feeding into the economic woes. Regardless of where you stand on political lines the people of Pakistan need to come together. We can't have Pakistan divided into three political sections (see 2018 election results) and those three sections call each other chor traitor while the actual elite laughs at all three sections and plays everyone each other.

I understand your point, but the thing that escapes me is -- why don't they care about their country enough to make the right decisions?

There's inequality, classism, injustice, etc, in the United States too. Yet, at a macro-level, the U.S. has kept moving forward. The leaders of the U.S. rarely made self-destructive (for a nation) decisions. The big one was probably opening up to China, but it was a mistake in hindsight.

What's missing among Pakistan's leaders (especially the Army leadership)? How do they lack vision? Why do they lack the ambition to "look outwards" and compete with other nations?

 

[WotTen]

I understand your point, but the thing that escapes me is -- why don't they care about their country enough to make the right decisions?

There's inequality, classism, injustice, etc, in the United States too. Yet, at a macro-level, the U.S. has kept moving forward. The leaders of the U.S. rarely made self-destructive (for a nation) decisions. The big one was probably opening up to China, but it was a mistake in hindsight.

What's missing among Pakistan's leaders (especially the Army leadership)? How do they lack vision? Why do they lack the ambition to "look outwards" and compete with other nations?

Better to compare ourselves to India rather than the US.

Indian politicians and generals are patriotic and proud of their country and culture. It's hard to find that in Pakistan.

 

[syed_yusuf]

It seems we as a nation has lost our soul

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi

The level that it is at now started with Gen Kiyani.

I have written extensively on this forum many a years ago that Pakistan nucs have been neutered.

Much earlier, it was Gen Ayub Khan--- non action during 1962 conflict.

It was obvious who the master was, Zia thought he had the Americans by the balls, but it was otherwise.

Ashamed Veg was a fool out and out. The one who died of heart attack on treadmill was not in control of the Americans.

Few others had too big of an ego and prude and US did not bother with them much, as they did not count to anything substantial.

Moth eaten nukes are still better than no nukes....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pak military already knows and has known for a long time that Israel is a reality.

For them it is a losing preposition that israel is not being recognized.

They can fight one enemy---India---but not two enemies.

 

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

Pak military already knows and has known for a long time that Israel is a reality.

For them it is a losing preposition that israel is not being recognized.

They can fight one enemy---India---but not two enemies.

Oh dear

 

[diligence]

While I respect all views expressed here regarding our country’s relationship with the US (and especially our military’s interaction with the US leaders – both civilians as well as the military). But I think most of these views are based on partial picture of the prevailing scenario. To be honest we need to evaluate our own position (strengths and weaknesses) before we can have a meaningful critical view of our relations with the US. To start with, think of a newly born country that virtually had no resources even to run the country. To make things worst, we had (and still have it) a severed enemy – much more resourceful and many times bigger than us - across the newly established borders. The enemy was trying/exploiting every single opportunity (fair or otherwise) to bleed us, make us fail, and get their dream of Akhand Bharat fulfilled. The enemy, in the first placed, agreed on the partition only after ensuring that we would fail as a country and beg for merger back to mother India. So, during the years after the independence 1947, we were struggling for our survival. In such a dire situation, the US offered us some aid in both economic and military terms and we happily accepted that. Of course, uncle Sam had his own agenda. But anyone would accept a helping hand in the then prevailing situation. While it’s true that our military leadership then was very much westernized but at the same time, most, if not all, of military officers were fully charged with patriotic feelings just like the rest of their countrymen. We made many mistakes too (such as missing 1962 opportunity to wrest J&K from India) but the net gain for us was the fact that we survived as a nation till 1971.

The deep wound that we got in 1971 re-energized us and as a result we started our national journey with a stronger determination. Bouncing back (i.e. becoming a nuclear power and bringing stability in the country despite all enemy subversion, insurgencies, and terrorism) in about a decade after losing half of country and humiliating defeat is no less than a miracle. But only to face one of the two superpowers at our doorsteps. To the shock for the rest of the world (including friends and foes), we decided and actually all alone stood up against the mighty USSR in Afghanistan. And, by the grace of Allah SwT Almighty, we were able to turn the tide on the invading bear and forced it to beg for safe return to its borders. Almost similar story of bravery, planning, fighting, and determination was repeated during 2001-2021 period.

All these achievements are no less of a feat. Our deeper state is not that cowardly, short-sighted, or stupid. Why we are so depressed by the current situation? We are still under the offense by our unified enemies. We need vision, intelligent actions, and solid determination on all fronts of war – diplomatic, economic, military, etc. I think IK government left much to be desired on the first two fronts. Our closest allies were alienated. We were making new foes just because of our stupidity. We needed more actions – under well thought out policies – rather than silly rhetoric. We needed a reckless diplomatic discourse the least. I hope the new government at least rectifies some of the harmful ripples created by the IK government.

 

[SD 10]

While I respect all views expressed here regarding our country’s relationship with the US (and especially our military’s interaction with the US leaders – both civilians as well as the military). But I think most of these views are based on partial picture of the prevailing scenario. To be honest we need to evaluate our own position (strengths and weaknesses) before we can have a meaningful critical view of our relations with the US. To start with, think of a newly born country that virtually had no resources even to run the country. To make things worst, we had (and still have it) a severed enemy – much more resourceful and many times bigger than us - across the newly established borders. The enemy was trying/exploiting every single opportunity (fair or otherwise) to bleed us, make us fail, and get their dream of Akhand Bharat fulfilled. The enemy, in the first placed, agreed on the partition only after ensuring that we would fail as a country and beg for merger back to mother India. So, during the years after the independence 1947, we were struggling for our survival. In such a dire situation, the US offered us some aid in both economic and military terms and we happily accepted that. Of course, uncle Sam had his own agenda. But anyone would accept a helping hand in the then prevailing situation. While it’s true that our military leadership then was very much westernized but at the same time, most, if not all, of military officers were fully charged with patriotic feelings just like the rest of their countrymen. We made many mistakes too (such as missing 1962 opportunity to wrest J&K from India) but the net gain for us was the fact that we survived as a nation till 1971.

The deep wound that we got in 1971 re-energized us and as a result we started our national journey with a stronger determination. Bouncing back (i.e. becoming a nuclear power and bringing stability in the country despite all enemy subversion, insurgencies, and terrorism) in about a decade after losing half of country and humiliating defeat is no less than a miracle. But only to face one of the two superpowers at our doorsteps. To the shock for the rest of the world (including friends and foes), we decided and actually all alone stood up against the mighty USSR in Afghanistan. And, by the grace of Allah SwT Almighty, we were able to turn the tide on the invading bear and forced it to beg for safe return to its borders. Almost similar story of bravery, planning, fighting, and determination was repeated during 2001-2021 period.

All these achievements are no less of a feat. Our deeper state is not that cowardly, short-sighted, or stupid. Why we are so depressed by the current situation? We are still under the offense by our unified enemies. We need vision, intelligent actions, and solid determination on all fronts of war – diplomatic, economic, military, etc. I think IK government left much to be desired on the first two fronts. Our closest allies were alienated. We were making new foes just because of our stupidity. We needed more actions – under well thought out policies – rather than silly rhetoric. We needed a reckless diplomatic discourse the least. I hope the new government at least rectifies some of the harmful ripples created by the IK government.

thats some ****crap!

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Thread derailing ?

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

same feeling here I too feel as something is lost, something is missing, betrayed & abandoned.

I just lost respect I used to have for defence forces of Pakistan .... & you know one of biggest wish I have in my life is to severely abuse Bajwa & his team face to face, while are present in their Full Ceremonial Uniform.

I really want to do this even If I have to pay the price of this act with Life.

@PanzerKiel .... I am really sorry that I am tagging you in this post ... but I just want you to know the feelings that many people now have even personally I feel like ke main rona chata hoo cheek cheek ker main Qasam khaney ke liya tyar hoo iis baat per, magr rona nahi ataa, aik ghutaan hai, ajeeb bohat ajeeb feelings hai, jase koi cheez halaq main pans gai hoo .... ajeeb mental situation hain meri sach mani agar koi Army General mera samney ho tu I will spit on his face, & with all this feeling I have to act as normal individual who have healthy & positive mindset which is becoming difficult day by day.

Plz if possible pass this feelings this message to someone or anyone who is in superior position in Army, main kabi apni personal feeling and status share nahi ker ta 10 years of my stay on this forum and other defence forums are available as supportive evidence of this.

agreed but their value is same as the Nation they are trained and feed to be sold to the foreign powers for their interests.

Same here. Army has lost respect with their handling of Imran Khan and PTI in the last 2-3 months or so.

See how excited we were with J10C pre and post induction but now, no one gives a crap. Needless to say else. IK may not be an ideal choice and have committed some mistakes but far far better than the ones which have been imposed to us as of now.

Thread derailing ?

why not when everything in Pakistan is getting derailed systematically under the watchful eyes of 'woh kaun hai'. Yeh tu sirf eik harmless se thread hai