JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[MastanKhan]

Mr Khan just be respectful...

Hi,

There is nothing disrespectful in my post.

You want to talk about engine---then give examples of nations that have built them just for their sole purpose other than US, GB, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Sweden---.

Talk about the costs and engineering base as well.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Hi,

There is nothing disrespectful in my post.

You want to talk about engine---then give examples of nations that have built them just for their sole purpose other than US, GB, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Sweden---.

Talk about the costs and engineering base as well.

None of the above... And u right.. but first they build a local capability. And then expand the production. Later incorporate various markets. I am so proud of Pakistan making investments in many areas with limited budget and making progress. One are where Pakistan as a nation is not investing is engine technology be it for an auto mobile or a fighter plane ... First and foremost Pakistan need to invest in various engine technologies and adopt them as we made progress. We need, labs, research centers, but above all human capital that we are missing. Look at Ukraine and Pakistan. We have bought close to appx 2500 various engine and transmission from them for tanks and APCs. Why could we have not asked them to establish a local production house and give us blueprints. We have produced close to to 3 million Suzuki 1000cc cars in last 10 years , why we don't manufacture these engine with full blue prints in Pakistan.

Pakistan has produced close to a million Corolla in last 10 years, of the 50% of the profit went Toyota. Why Toyota no manufacturing engines and transmissions in Pakistan with Pakistan produced materials.

Moving to jf17. I do agree it is not easy to pickup key engine technology. But we got to start somewhere like initially produce rd93b in Pakistan with knockdown kits with initial 25% Pakistani content and then improve it to 100% over next 10years with full design ownership. This could have given us did base to learn and improve to our own design in next 20+ years. Who knows..

Now that is what I am asking .

 

[mudas777]

Most companies would sue you for copyright and patent infringement even when you are in development stage of a car engiene. The reason being base tech for car engiene is patented by big companies. Even some large car manufacturers utilised dedicated engine manufacturing companies for their car engines. A toyota made car doesnt nexessarily have a made by Toyota car engiene. China has a unique position being second largest economy still they face lawsuits every other day. Manufacturing car engiene itself is no big feet but keeping the large industrial wolves at bay will cost you a fortune.

Military tech is an entirely different matter as you dont require commercial utilisation hence much less oversight. Still OEMs always are on tail.

Bro we have to make a start in the engine manufacturing from somewhere. Licence production is the only way forward for us as we have got literally no research base. So beg, borrow and buy the technology is the only option for us.

 

[Trango Towers]

None of the above... And u right.. but first they build a local capability. And then expand the production. Later incorporate various markets. I am so proud of Pakistan making investments in many areas with limited budget and making progress. One are where Pakistan as a nation is not investing is engine technology be it for an auto mobile or a fighter plane ... First and foremost Pakistan need to invest in various engine technologies and adopt them as we made progress. We need, labs, research centers, but above all human capital that we are missing. Look at Ukraine and Pakistan. We have bought close to appx 2500 various engine and transmission from them for tanks and APCs. Why could we have not asked them to establish a local production house and give us blueprints. We have produced close to to 3 million Suzuki 1000cc cars in last 10 years , why we don't manufacture these engine with full blue prints in Pakistan.

Pakistan has produced close to a million Corolla in last 10 years, of the 50% of the profit went Toyota. Why Toyota no manufacturing engines and transmissions in Pakistan with Pakistan produced materials.

Moving to jf17. I do agree it is not easy to pickup key engine technology. But we got to start somewhere like initially produce rd93b in Pakistan with knockdown kits with initial 25% Pakistani content and then improve it to 100% over next 10years with full design ownership. This could have given us did base to learn and improve to our own design in next 20+ years. Who knows..

Now that is what I am asking .

Interesting points.

However you forget...politicians are the decision makes and only the jahil enter politics.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

None of the above... And u right.. but first they build a local capability. And then expand the production. Later incorporate various markets. I am so proud of Pakistan making investments in many areas with limited budget and making progress. One are where Pakistan as a nation is not investing is engine technology be it for an auto mobile or a fighter plane ... First and foremost Pakistan need to invest in various engine technologies and adopt them as we made progress. We need, labs, research centers, but above all human capital that we are missing. Look at Ukraine and Pakistan. We have bought close to appx 2500 various engine and transmission from them for tanks and APCs. Why could we have not asked them to establish a local production house and give us blueprints. We have produced close to to 3 million Suzuki 1000cc cars in last 10 years , why we don't manufacture these engine with full blue prints in Pakistan.

Pakistan has produced close to a million Corolla in last 10 years, of the 50% of the profit went Toyota. Why Toyota no manufacturing engines and transmissions in Pakistan with Pakistan produced materials.

Moving to jf17. I do agree it is not easy to pickup key engine technology. But we got to start somewhere like initially produce rd93b in Pakistan with knockdown kits with initial 25% Pakistani content and then improve it to 100% over next 10years with full design ownership. This could have given us did base to learn and improve to our own design in next 20+ years. Who knows..

Now that is what I am asking .

with the current state of our education. suppression of reasoning and low quality of teachers and students there is no chance of even starting this overambitious journey. just because we assembled some Toyotas and JF-17s doesnt mean we can now design and produce our own Jet engine. even if we somehow successfully negotiated and paid for the blue prints of Toyota engines then this wont in any way mean that after learning to assemble them we can in ten years now make Fighter jet engines.

your reasoning and examples are very ambitious and flawed to be honest. for all the investment in technologies we not only need the resources but also ample size of knowledge base and enough people to run that project. we are hardly able to meet our needs as most of our resources are spent on debt servicing and non developmental expenses.

not now, not in ten years or even ever with the current mindset of rota system, politicized education where one has to watch his back not to offend the lynch mob. the single national curriculum is final nail in the coffin.
at this rate count us lucky if our aspiring engineers will be able to produce the paint use for aviation.

Hi,

There is nothing disrespectful in my post.

You want to talk about engine---then give examples of nations that have built them just for their sole purpose other than US, GB, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Sweden---.

Talk about the costs and engineering base as well.

OK Mastan,
I am going to learn how to assemble the motor of a washing machine and if I continue to do it for ten years then I will be teaching the local mechanics that have worked on bikes for few years to design and produce a turbofan Jet engine and you will have no place to hide.

 

[MastanKhan]

None of the above... And u right.. but first they build a local capability. And then expand the production. Later incorporate various markets. I am so proud of Pakistan making investments in many areas with limited budget and making progress. One are where Pakistan as a nation is not investing is engine technology be it for an auto mobile or a fighter plane ... First and foremost Pakistan need to invest in various engine technologies and adopt them as we made progress. We need, labs, research centers, but above all human capital that we are missing. Look at Ukraine and Pakistan. We have bought close to appx 2500 various engine and transmission from them for tanks and APCs. Why could we have not asked them to establish a local production house and give us blueprints. We have produced close to to 3 million Suzuki 1000cc cars in last 10 years , why we don't manufacture these engine with full blue prints in Pakistan.

Pakistan has produced close to a million Corolla in last 10 years, of the 50% of the profit went Toyota. Why Toyota no manufacturing engines and transmissions in Pakistan with Pakistan produced materials.

Moving to jf17. I do agree it is not easy to pickup key engine technology. But we got to start somewhere like initially produce rd93b in Pakistan with knockdown kits with initial 25% Pakistani content and then improve it to 100% over next 10years with full design ownership. This could have given us did base to learn and improve to our own design in next 20+ years. Who knows..

Now that is what I am asking .

Hi,

After reading your lengthy post, I see that you do not have any understanding about building a modern internal combustion engine, the industrial background needed, the financial aspect and ultimately the usage & the resutls.

India got their blue prints from the manufacturer for their Tank engine---. That original engine produced 1500 HP I believe---. The Indian designed engine---with all the help produced around 600 HP.

What fighter aircraft engine does Israel, germany, Japan, Korea, manufacture or assemble---if not---then why not---.

 

[mudas777]

I am going to learn how to assemble the motor of a washing machine and if I continue to do it for ten years then I will be teaching the local mechanics that have worked on bikes for few years to design and produce a turbofan Jet engine and you will have no place to hide.

Lol promises promises now you are giving Mastan run for his money.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Lol promises promises now you are giving Mastan run for his money.

joke is on someone else who makes it sound so easy to build a jet engine.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Son,

After reading your lengthy post, I see that you do not have any understanding about building a modern internal combustion engine, the industrial background needed, the financial aspect and ultimately the usage & the resutls.

India got their blue prints from the manufacturer for their Tank engine---. That original engine produced 1500 HP I believe---. The Indian designed engine---with all the help produced around 600 HP.

What fighter aircraft engine does Israel, germany, Japan, Korea, manufacture or assemble---if not---then why not---.

Dear mature elderly uncle, please grow up to be in 2021 ... U r still in 70s.

Manufacturing internal combustion automobile engine is no rocket science anymore. You just need economy of scale to have right investment for decent ROI. I guess you know what ROI means.

A decent plan could be achieved. And your example of India not able to manufacturer is flawed. They might have failed initially to make those tank engines but they are now successful in making many automotive engines.

Yes it requires human resource investment but then again which discipline does not

I am not sure what your background is but for sure you missed those decent forward looking planning classes

Please wakeup and smell some coffee

with the current state of our education. suppression of reasoning and low quality of teachers and students there is no chance of even starting this overambitious journey. just because we assembled some Toyotas and JF-17s doesnt mean we can now design and produce our own Jet engine. even if we somehow successfully negotiated and paid for the blue prints of Toyota engines then this wont in any way mean that after learning to assemble them we can in ten years now make Fighter jet engines.

your reasoning and examples are very ambitious and flawed to be honest. for all the investment in technologies we not only need the resources but also ample size of knowledge base and enough people to run that project. we are hardly able to meet our needs as most of our resources are spent on debt servicing and non developmental expenses.

not now, not in ten years or even ever with the current mindset of rota system, politicized education where one has to watch his back not to offend the lynch mob. the single national curriculum is final nail in the coffin.
at this rate count us lucky if our aspiring engineers will be able to produce the paint use for aviation.

Ambitious it is ... Let's start from basic , why don't GoP make sure that all automotive manufacturers in Pakistan should also made engines in Pakistan . Why this is so difficult ?

 

[ziaulislam]

These are not labours who construct our houses or do plywood work.

You have to train them in-house or send them to foreign country. And there is overhead costs for all these things.

why electronics companies (especially fabs) are not coming to India. For same reason the overhead cost is far higher than the cheap labour.

Further, you have to ask the OEM to add additional infrastructure in country for assembly. That add further cost, and for 4th gen fighter. The cost is exorbitantly high for such infrastructure.

You are mixing up 10 things
Fabs isnt simply assrmbly from knock down kits

Traning cost is that high if you are assembling 100+ planes from knock down kits

 

[Farhan Bohra]

You are mixing up 10 things
Fabs isnt simply assrmbly from knock down kits

Traning cost is that high if you are assembling 100+ planes from knock down kits

Even If all fabrication work happen in country, like in the case of MKI.

you need precision, fabrication machines, ovens, autoclaves and the list goes on and on.
And these are specially designed manufacturing units which are developed by OEM or OEM partners with the IPR of OEM.

And you have to import all these units, further OEM takes royalties over all these things.

Then question arrive of metallurgy, all basic items are imported, over which OEMs also makes profit.

it be somehow miracle that a country who doing assembly somehow make it cheaply than the origin country.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear mature elderly uncle, please grow up to be in 2021 ... U r still in 70s.

Manufacturing internal combustion automobile engine is no rocket science anymore. You just need economy of scale to have right investment for decent ROI. I guess you know what ROI means.

A decent plan could be achieved. And your example of India not able to manufacturer is flawed. They might have failed initially to make those tank engines but they are now successful in making many automotive engines.

Yes it requires human resource investment but then again which discipline does not

I am not sure what your background is but for sure you missed those decent forward looking planning classes

Please wakeup and smell some coffee


Ambitios it is ... Let's start from basic , why don't GoP make sure that all automotive manufacturers in Pakistan should also made engines in Pakistan . Why this is so difficult ?

Hi,

What is your engineering background to make that statement?

Again you are being a smart talker without substance---.

21st century capable engines are more complicated and more difficult to manufacture---next to impossible---unless you have a sound engine manufacturing base with endless funds and a AAA engineering team.

An average car in the 70's had an attainable top speed on 85-90--100-110-120 miles per hr with an 8 cyl engine.

An average car in the 21st century has a minimum driveable top speed of 125-130 mph with a 4 cylnder engine.

More passenger cars can do a top speed of 140-145 mph now ---and hardly any car could do that in the 70's.

Other than mentioning being in the 21st century---do you have any clue what it takes to make a modern.

We didn’t got any help for 1500 hp engine.

neither any one ask for it. The simple reason indian industry not going for it is because there is no civilian market for such engine.

And developing it by private sector is a cost prohibitive exercise. if there was demand of 1500 hp engine, pvt sector already churning it out like popcorn. It is not a restricted tech.

And only one those developing are DRDO labs, who don’t care about money.

Hi,

You have english comprehension problem---your reply shows that you did not understand what I wrote..

 

[Inception-06]

Hi,

After reading your lengthy post, I see that you do not have any understanding about building a modern internal combustion engine, the industrial background needed, the financial aspect and ultimately the usage & the resutls.

India got their blue prints from the manufacturer for their Tank engine---. That original engine produced 1500 HP I believe---. The Indian designed engine---with all the help produced around 600 HP.

What fighter aircraft engine does Israel, germany, Japan, Korea, manufacture or assemble---if not---then why not---.

That’s Khan, the last shot is always your gun, enjoyable after watching and reading now so many years PDF.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Hi,

What is your engineering background to make that statement?

Again you are being a smart talker without substance---.

21st century capable engines are more complicated and more difficult to manufacture---next to impossible---unless you have a sound engine manufacturing base with endless funds and a AAA engineering team.

An average car in the 70's had an attainable top speed on 85-90--100-110-120 miles per hr with an 8 cyl engine.

An average car in the 21st century has a minimum driveable top speed of 125-130 mph with a 4 cylnder engine.

More passenger cars can do a top speed of 140-145 mph now ---and hardly any car could do that in the 70's.

Other than mentioning being in the 21st century---do you have any clue what it takes to make a modern.



Hi,

You have english comprehension problem---your reply shows that you did not understand what I wrote..

Search me on the web to find out about my back ground and my resume ... Don't Wana do it .. then don't ask about it ....

People like you I believe are the biggest road block in taking that next step . You have been saying no to everything , as of it could not be done , but not providing any plan to how can this be done ..


either you like it or not, in next 3-4 years Pakistan automotive industry is starting manufacturing car engine and transmission in Pakistan... Watch it ...

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I am lost. There are so many different discussions going on here that it is difficult to keep up.
From engine design, to materials and composite, to literally a discussion around Autoclaves, the diversity of discussion is mind numbing. The poor JF17 B3 discussion is relegated to the sidelines. Perhaps we should spin up a thread to discuss Material Sciences capabilities of Pakistan, which everyone will agree is essential for any modern manufacturing process. Another thread could be indigenization efforts and critical projects, which could be another interesting thread. Right now this thread has too many tangentially/overlapped related topics at work.