JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[CriticalThought]

Before we come to your questions, let us first review available information on how liquid cooling is achieved historically

Active Electronically Steered Arrays - A Maturing Technology (ausairpower.net)

US designs employ a polyalphaolefin (PAO) coolant similar to a synthetic hydraulic fluid. A typical liquid cooling system will use pumps to drive the coolant through channels in the antenna, and then route it to a heat exchanger. That might be an air cooled core (radiator style) or an immersed heat exchanger in a fuel tank - with a second liquid cooling loop to dump heat from the fuel tank.

Also, take a look at the characteristics of Polyalphaolefin:

POLYALPHAOLEFIN, CONTAINS (FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS, N.O.S.) | CAMEO Chemicals | NOAA

With this in mind:

Just few of observations/curious questions:

1. Simple softer material becomes harder and more prone to leaks incase of hot/cold liquid runs through (if I am not wrong and am willing to be corrected for benefit of my knowledge).

We are not saying this is simple softer material. By 'soft' we mean it is flexible and can undergo tearing by scraping against metal edges. We are also hypothesizing that a commercial solution offers this tubing, which also makes sense - the commercial solution wouldn't want to offer one single rigid metal tubing that cannot fit into arbitrary airframes.

2. If coolant could react to metallic tubing then what kind of metallic housing would be storing the coolant in first place?

We don't know where this coolant is housed and what material that uses.

3. In-fact the same coolant has to run through metallic equipment for example HEU/HEA or the plate of AESA antenna itself, which is surely not made of softer material so the coolant could react in longer run?

The AESA radar consists of TRMs attached to some kind of mechanical support which is encased within a housing. If you read above, there are channels that could be etched on the mechanical support, or within the TRMs themselves. We aren't flooding the metallic housing with fluid.

4. Metal Vs Tubing? I am confused because a tube can be made of Metal or Softer Material so please explain as I am unable to understand.

I don't understand the question.

5. From the same post, it shows softer looking tubes going straight into AESA antenna plate. I don't see any metallic tubing or am I missing so please, point to it if you may. Mind you, they wouldn't just play novice while installing softer material tube for F-16.
View attachment 776933

The picture is showing a commercial solution in a product brochure. This is similar to the side-cut examples of LKF601E that we have seen from China.

6. So on JF-17 Thunder, either it is simply a metallic tube for the coolant or if the coolant as such has to flow through softer looking material tube like F-16 then it is most probably something else that I don't know.

The quandary can be resolved by understanding the commercial solution and how it is used in the final aircraft.

7. The tube we are looking in above picture (For F-16s) is most probably braided hose for high performance and reliable for heat dissipation & better flow.
View attachment 776934

Possibly. It remains prone to tearing, which could be fatal.

8. Or that metallic looking pipe itself is a shiny white breaded hose like the above one. (we don't have a closer lookup for this)

Possibly. But it looks quite a solid metallic pipe.

 

[CriticalThought]

You mean to say that you're going to run a pipe filled with coolant almost half the length of the plane.
Add a pump that's going to push that through the whole length to the heat distributor and then the added length to bring it back...
But the same thermal paste or SiC couldn't have been used in both the places ( i think even with liquid cooling you need thermal conductive paste like in liquid cooled CPUs ) and a cool air duct like in the F-16 could cool off that liquid by cooling off the heat distributor ?

So you have a SiC substrate layer bringing heat out of the radar. What is the alternative you are proposing? It is not clear from what you have written above.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

So you have a SiC substrate layer bringing heat out of the radar. What is the alternative you are proposing? It is not clear from what you have written above.

I think I have some misunderstandings, If you could help me understand these.

The video ( I'll attach the link below ) Shows that air is used to take away the heat from the heat exchanger.

As of my understanding the actual coolant flows between these compartments ( AESA, ECS and Heat exchanger )... While the air duct bring in air to cool down the heat exchanger.

3:- where you pointed out that the metal pipe housing two other pipes bends into and then moves upwards. ( Or a distributor )
2:- shows a connection between 2 pipes. Encircled also shows mouth of a pipe with thread...
1:- shows 1 ( or 2 ) pipes ( as they look hollow to me ) entering the cockpit from behind the hud ?
Why are coolant pipes entering the cockpit ?
That's why I think the metal pipe feeds air into a distributor and then to the heat exchanger
4:- on the contrary could that be the same metal pipe entering the nose ?

So your SiC substrate layer is installed behind the array...
Does this push the heat into ECS compartment ?
Where does the whole plumbing stand in light of 2,3 and 4.
To summarize
> 2,3 if not air ducts then why going upwards into cockpit ?
>4 if coolant then are there smaller pipes that it feeds that run around the whole compartment ? OR if it is an Air duct, Is it blowing air into the whole compartment ?

 

[CriticalThought]

I think I have some misunderstandings, If you could help me understand these.
View attachment 776963
The video ( I'll attach the link below ) Shows that air is used to take away the heat from the heat exchanger.
View attachment 776965
As of my understanding the actual coolant flows between these compartments ( AESA, ECS and Heat exchanger )... While the air duct bring in air to cool down the heat exchanger.
View attachment 776975
3:- where you pointed out that the metal pipe housing two other pipes bends into and then moves upwards. ( Or a distributor )
2:- shows a connection between 2 pipes. Encircled also shows mouth of a pipe with thread...
1:- shows 1 ( or 2 ) pipes ( as they look hollow to me ) entering the cockpit from behind the hud ?
Why are coolant pipes entering the cockpit ?
That's why I think the metal pipe feeds air into a distributor and then to the heat exchanger
4:- on the contrary could that be the same metal pipe entering the nose ?
View attachment 776969View attachment 776970
So your SiC substrate layer is installed behind the array...
Does this push the heat into ECS compartment ?
Where does the whole plumbing stand in light of 2,3 and 4.
To summarize
> 2,3 if not air ducts then why going upwards into cockpit ?
>4 if coolant then are there smaller pipes that it feeds that run around the whole compartment ? OR if it is an Air duct, Is it blowing air into the whole compartment ?

Before we go any further, have you considered the fact that air conditioning is needed in the cockpit itself? So there are already mechanisms in place to bring in cool air.

There is an unambiguous, thick metal pipe right behind the opening for the AESA radar. This looks physically similar to the one running along the bottom that seems to turn inward and downward. Since both look so similar, I am just assuming it continues all the way to the nose.

Any solution that proposes one single pipe moving air/fuel to the radar is irrational. What goes in, must come out.

Based on this, re-think what you are trying to say.

 

[CriticalThought]

@Iron Shrappenel in order to conclude, or even meaningfully propose, a SABR like solution being used on Block 3, we need to identify the coolant pump that is part of the SABR kit.

 

[messiach]

R&D on solid state engineering is going on for several yrs. We in military know things on need to know basis. Dont take AESA as a panacia for all ailments, it has marginal performance improvement over PESA.

Is it for an airborne aesa or ground based?

 

[Aesterix]

(For the ease of readers and understanding of quoted posts)

With reference to earlier discussion for Thunder Bravo only, found an old picture on other thread, with same pipe on starboard side.

View attachment 776922

and, as above, missing on port side with same airframe arrangement...
View attachment 776923

All Thunder B will eventually get the AESA Radar. May be that's why provision for plumbing is there, even if the actual plumbing not being there as of now.
Reference to this Jane's article.

PAC Kamra rolls out final 14 JF-17B fighters for Pakistan Air Force

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra rolled out on 30 December the final 14 of 26 dual-seat JF-17B Thunder multirole combat aircraft ordered by the Pakistan...

www.janes.com

 

[Dazzler]

R&D on solid state engineering is going on for several yrs. We in military know things on need to know basis. Dont take AESA as a panacia for all ailments, it has marginal performance improvement over PESA.

Prototype of indigenous x band aesa.

Making AESA Radar More Flexible

A modular, building-block approach brings greater design flexibility to Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar technology, simplifying system integration, and permitting rapid first-line repair with no downtime using standard off-the-shelf components. Until recently, AESA radar was...

www.aerodefensetech.com

 

[Dazzler]

Same radar can be seen on PAC website.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Same radar can be seen on PAC website.
View attachment 776987

It's a stock image.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

@Iron Shrappenel in order to conclude, or even meaningfully propose, a SABR like solution being used on Block 3, we need to identify the coolant pump that is part of the SABR kit.

The SABR'S pump seems to be right next to the Heat distributor.
Our AESA solution doesn't even propose to use a Liquid cooling system. (LKF601E)
Rather it is us who are adamant on running it on fuel cooling...
Your question about the air-conditioning had me thinking and an account of an A7E pilot ( an aircraft with a rather small nose too ) of which conclusion i could make was that the air ducts passed underneath the cockpit.... The return duct could be used to ventilate air out of the compartment....

There is an unambiguous, thick metal pipe right behind the opening for the AESA radar.

Yes, and unlike the one you previously mentioned as being flexible... It seems that it isn't...

I am just assuming it continues all the way to the nose.

It seems to end in the second compartment (above pic). A starboard side picture would help make sense

 

[MastanKhan]

R&D on solid state engineering is going on for several yrs. We in military know things on need to know basis. Dont take AESA as a panacia for all ailments, it has marginal performance improvement over PESA.

Hi,

It is not the actual capability that makes the difference ( which it does )---it is the fear created of the unknown that makes the opponent make errors at a critical time.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hi,

It is not the actual capability that makes the difference ( which it does )---it is the fear created of the unknown that makes the opponent make errors at a critical time.

I left this forum a while back. (Can't say why, as moderators delete it, as it hurts their feelings......)However I have to come back to address the nonsense that you have started to spout.

The above post has incensed me as you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You make vague statements hinting at some secret knowledge that you have somehow accumulated whilst not saying anything of substance.
--You talk to people with ACTUAL engineering and design expertise like you have some sort of special knowledge (You don't and never have) You are a car salesman end of story.
--You talk down to members who have published actual books on the subject---you are used car salesman who I doubt has published a book on that subject.
--You talk about "Capability" and errors that people make yet I doubt you have worn any kind of uniform in your life and the closest you have gotten to be shot at is when you have had a pissed off customer returning the lemon you sold them..

Just stop.......

 

[The Eagle]

The recent one looks different, and its not illuminated green.

No green even in-flight and taxing.

 

[The Eagle]

Just a simple unknown pipe going through Block-III airframe towards front section, made me to realize that despite of my uncle, brother, cousin, neighbour, father, sister, son or daughter in PAC and even my engineering (PhD x aviation experience)x, its just cluelessness all around.

So if I start to learn something instead of being in box of "I know it all", I can however progress or at-least saving myself from unnecessary explanations. SO, I realized that to learn and accurately point something new; let's do it like a child.... nothing in mind like I know it all and just start with pointing it out.

@ everyone since the topic is getting dull, lets just say that how many differences can you spot externally. No worries for angle or anything. Pen down any different you see whether minor or big or even apparently not important if you think but say it. Let's just say, I don't know everything but I can learn something.

Without S. No.

Block-III S. No. 3000

Block-III 3001

And the recently shared picture of unknown S. No.