JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Chak Bamu]

I live to call out B.S. wherever I see it.

Extend the same privilege to others.

Also, Stop digging when you find yourself in a hole.

 

[The Eagle]

Just a silly question. What if we are missing the point of space management which might have resulted in the lack of same pipe on the port side of Airframe?

Keep in mind this arrangement is same as we have seen on JF-17 Bravo as well and in latest picture

(For the ease of readers and understanding of quoted posts)

With reference to earlier discussion for Thunder Bravo only, found an old picture on other thread, with same pipe on starboard side.

and, as above, missing on port side with same airframe arrangement...

 

[CriticalThought]

possible .... but why put one additional pipe to cover the 2 pipes .... ???

If the pipes are made of softer material, the metallic pipe provides protection. You don't want coolant leaking all over the other electronics.

 

[CriticalThought]

Extend the same privilege to others.

Also, Stop digging when you find yourself in a hole.

Sure. Except you have literally ranted when faced with logic. Come up with some quality discussion or get that 'Retired Moderator' title removed.

 

[The Eagle]

If the pipes are made of softer material, the metallic pipe provides protection. You don't want coolant leaking all over the other electronics.

Why to use soft material pipe when in-case of leakage, metallic pipe has to hold it. Wouldn't be economical, energy, space & time saving to go straight for a metallic pipe.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Sure. Except you have literally ranted when faced with logic. Come up with some quality discussion or get that 'Retired Moderator' title removed.

I guess fellow members would decide as to who ranted here - that is if you imagine them being worthy of reaching your intellectual level.

 

[CriticalThought]

Why to use soft material pipe when in-case of leakage, metallic pipe has to hold it. Wouldn't be economical, energy, space & time saving to go straight for a metallic pipe.

Take a look at the piping used in F-16. It is possible they took a commercial solution and made it more robust. Also, coolant could react with metallic tubing in the long run, and will have different flow characteristics when flowing over metal vs tubing.

JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

CAD model with refueling probe

defence.pk

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

possible .... but why put one additional pipe to cover the 2 pipes .... ???

Is it running coolant or air ? If it's air then why does it need two pipes.... The liquid coolant motor will run the coolant between the array, ECU unit and back to heat distribution unit... The coolant would be further cooled off by the air running from that pipe as it's location is dead center where the heat distribution unit would fit... So technically there isn't need to run a second pipe just an opening to keep the compartment ventilated... Silly question but is there need for that compartment to be pressurized ?
( This comment could be subject of satire but I've still posted )

 

[HRK]

Is it running coolant or air ? If it's air then why does it need two pipes

the other member seems agree with liquid cooling theory ....

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

the other member seems agree with liquid cooling theory ....

Makes no sense in running it through half the fuselage of the airplane..... Members also said the system is supposed to be hybrid...

 

[The Eagle]

Take a look at the piping used in F-16. It is possible they took a commercial solution and made it more robust. Also, coolant could react with metallic tubing in the long run, and will have different flow characteristics when flowing over metal vs tubing.

Just few of observations/curious questions:

1. Simple softer material becomes harder and more prone to leaks incase of hot/cold liquid runs through (if I am not wrong and am willing to be corrected for benefit of my knowledge).
2. If coolant could react to metallic tubing then what kind of metallic housing would be storing the coolant in first place?
3. In-fact the same coolant has to run through metallic equipment for example HEU/HEA or the plate of AESA antenna itself, which is surely not made of softer material so the coolant could react in longer run?
4. Metal Vs Tubing? I am confused because a tube can be made of Metal or Softer Material so please explain as I am unable to understand.
5. From the same post, it shows softer looking tubes going straight into AESA antenna plate. I don't see any metallic tubing or am I missing so please, point to it if you may. Mind you, they wouldn't just play novice while installing softer material tube for F-16.
6. 
7. So on JF-17 Thunder, either it is simply a metallic tube for the coolant or if the coolant as such has to flow through softer looking material tube like F-16 then it is most probably something else that I don't know.
8. The tube we are looking in above picture (For F-16s) is most probably braided hose for high performance and reliable for heat dissipation & better flow.
9. 
10. Or that metallic looking pipe itself is a shiny white breaded hose like the above one. (we don't have a closer lookup for this)

 

[CriticalThought]

Makes no sense in running it through half the fuselage of the airplane..... Members also said the system is supposed to be hybrid...

Hybrid here means you don't need liquid coolant running across the TRMs within the radar. A substrate layer, such as SiC would remove the heat, thus negating the need to bring the coolant into the nose cone. Subsequently, liquid coolant will remove heat from the posterior part of the unit.

 

[HRK]

Makes no sense in running it through half the fuselage of the airplane..... Members also said the system is supposed to be hybrid...

you can argue this with that member its not my argument .....

 

[PakFactor]

At the risk of lengthening the off-topic discussion, let me say that Turkish struggle was exactly what suited Pakistan. You join a struggling program and commit resources after negotiating an advantageous position to create a good bargain. I have always agreed with @Quwa on his contention that a much better course of action would have been to join an active program rather than marching alone into the unknown.

Pakistan severely lacks industrial base & technical know-how; the culture (both government & most private industry) is hostile to innovative thinking; army officers make policy & expect cushy jobs after retirement & get their way anyway & however. We have insular thinking where civilians (thought-leaders, politicians, policy-makers, industrialists, engineers, scientists, etc...) are irrelevant. How can a civilian like me hope to contribute anything meaningful? There simply is no avenue available.

While this is the situation in Pakistan, India has invested in indigenous programs & learnt via their mistakes (Tejas, Dhruv, missile tech, etc...) and established a well-staffed infrastructure in partnership with business leaders.

Case in point: when I was at Georgia Tech in early-mid nineties, two of the senior professors of fiber science were Indian - Dr. Satish Kumar & Dr. Desai (?). There were at least two Indians completing their PhDs in high performance composite materials, while I was the lone Pakistani who took a few courses in composites. There were a number of Pakistani students studying Electrical / Electronic engineering, Civil Engineering (not Structures, but water resources :-\ ), a couple of students were studying Environmental Engineering also. There were none in aerospace (GA Tech was nationally ranked #3 in AE), and one airforce officer in Industrial & Systems Engineering (GA Tech was ranked #1). Most fat Colonels were enrolled in Civil Engineering & took their sweet time getting their PhDs while their wives worked, earned, & saved. Except two people, I do not know of a single person associated with Army or PAF who made any positive contribution after their subsequent return to Pakistan - the lone exception from the Army being Dr. Shoaib who completed his PhD in good time & was well-regarded among us. In short, for the resources spent what was the outcome?

JF-17 could be the success that leads us to expecting miracles because we generally got it right this one time. PAF is the only airforce that manufactures its own aircraft via PAC. Is it realistic to expect that PAF by itself can create a whole top-notch industry? I don't think so. JF-17 taught us the value of partnering with someone & that should be the lesson learned here, not the notion that PAF can (or should) do it all. There is no aircraft that can do it all, & there is no organization that can be everything to everyone. Unless there is a partnership with own civvies and our international friends, there is precious little hope.

What we lack in supply chain industrial build up, in our cause with PAF via PAC it's trying to be all in-house and this sort of thinking is long term doom to failure. You need to let these small unicorns develop on their own with their own human resource capacity that will further expand through organic growth and know how. What we also fail at is integrating human resources throughout the supply chain with to much control and favoritism.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Hybrid here means you don't need liquid coolant running across the TRMs within the radar. A substrate layer, such as SiC would remove the heat, thus negating the need to bring the coolant into the nose cone. Subsequently, liquid coolant will remove heat from the posterior part of the unit.

You mean to say that you're going to run a pipe filled with coolant almost half the length of the plane.
Add a pump that's going to push that through the whole length to the heat distributor and then the added length to bring it back...
But the same thermal paste or SiC couldn't have been used in both the places ( i think even with liquid cooling you need thermal conductive paste like in liquid cooled CPUs ) and a cool air duct like in the F-16 could cool off that liquid by cooling off the heat distributor ?