JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[araz]

The PAF always had a roadmap to upgrade all previous blocks to Block III standard. Not to start another Block III vs J-10C debate, but the risk/reward profile is marginal at best.

You may remember that you and I have had a debate on this subject and I was of the opinion that although upgrades would happen the planes would not entirely be akin to newer block 3s. It seems that you were right and I was wrong.
Regards
A

 

[araz]

Don't let the 0.5 point difference fool you. J-10C has a different flight envelope & that really matters a good deal. If PAF can not look for more F-16 aircrafts then the only logical choice is J-10CE. JF-17 Block III will struggle against a mixed strike package. Having J-10CE will ensure that IAF would think a hundred times before committing to an adventure. Also, do remember that any future Chinese A2A missiles would readily be integrated on J-10CE, while JF-17 would need a more lengthy integration period. The only deal-breaker would be lack of significant financing help in acquiring J-10CE keeping in view current state of Pakistan's economy.

Could you kindly elaborate on the 2 highlighted bits.
Is it just the fact that an identifiable flight profile of a plane would make it easier for the oponent to devise a strategy against it or is there something else that makes you think IAF will care about J10.
Why would Pakistan struggle incorporating missiles on Jft as against J10 provided the source codes are known. If the Chinese do not give us source codes we will not be able to do anything about it.
A

 

[Chak Bamu]

Could you kindly elaborate on the 2 highlighted bits.
Is it just the fact that an identifiable flight profile of a plane would make it easier for the oponent to devise a strategy against it or is there something else that makes you think IAF will care about J10.
Why would Pakistan struggle incorporating missiles on Jft as against J10 provided the source codes are known. If the Chinese do not give us source codes we will not be able to do anything about it.
A

When the adversary can not accurately predict what combination of combat aircraft would its aggressors face, it is bound to be more careful. Total envelope of a package is sum of its parts & the impact is more than the sum of its parts.

when it comes to integration of newer missiles, which aircraft would get them first? Besides I never used the word "struggle".

Oxygen generator us just a small chemical cylinder. Doesn't need such extensive plumbing.

I thought it had a compressor which passed compressed air through a set of compartments filled with activated granules that selectively absorbed nitrogen?

 

[Aesterix]

When the adversary can not accurately predict what combination of combat aircraft would its aggressors face, it is bound to be more careful. Total envelope of a package is sum of its parts & the impact is more than the sum of its parts.

when it comes to integration of newer missiles, which aircraft would get them first? Besides I never used the word "struggle".

A very much neglected new capability of Thunder B and Block III is the intention of High off bore sight capable missiles.
That should help in combat against highly maneuvering enemy aircrafts.

 

[untitled]

A very much neglected new capability of Thunder B and Block III is the intention of High off bore sight capable missiles.
That should help in combat against highly maneuvering enemy aircrafts.

PL-10?

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

I've been reviewing almost every thread and pics on the JFT with green surfaces. These identify strengthened materials being used compared to prior models. That could mean a few things and is normal in aircraft manufacturing, Green could identify a "fixed" surface issue, or, clear for more loading. Here are the potential meanings of this "green' color (every air force pics it's own color scheme):
1) A surface area showing through historical analysis to be "weak" (cracks, bents, easily dented) and thus requires fixing in the future blocks with additional material strength.

2) Stronger materials / composited used to allow for heavier operation (whether carrying weapons when used on wings, or, in general, requiring longer life in a certain area).

3) These small patches have nothing to do with fuel. Aircrafts don't use "buckets". It uses tanks and with heavy quantity. Some of the green surfaces are too small and just external skin fixes, vs. housing more fuel inside.

Hello sir,
Please don't open this Pandora's box again. It's been discussed to death.
Hint:- wing reinforcement on earlier blocks vs lack there of on B2 and A3

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Don't let the 0.5 point difference fool you. J-10C has a different flight envelope & that really matters a good deal. If PAF can not look for more F-16 aircrafts then the only logical choice is J-10CE. JF-17 Block III will struggle against a mixed strike package. Having J-10CE will ensure that IAF would think a hundred times before committing to an adventure. Also, do remember that any future Chinese A2A missiles would readily be integrated on J-10CE, while JF-17 would need a more lengthy integration period. The only deal-breaker would be lack of significant financing help in acquiring J-10CE keeping in view current state of Pakistan's economy.

Though initiating Project AZM probably wasn't a good idea (as a rapid NGFA development), I do value ACM Sohail Aman's focus on working with what we already have. He's generally been vocal about the need to optimize resources (especially foreign currency) and reinvest in domestic capacity. This is the right approach, it's just a matter of designing the right strategy and executing correctly.

Sadly, he and his team overshot with AZM; I think the NGFA should have been a consortium play from the very start (e.g., we should've joined the Turks on the TF-X when they invited us in 2016).

I also think we should've focused on munitions (e.g., AAM, ALCM, PGB, SOW, etc) development more. Though difficult, the funding involved for those would generally be less than trying to build a FGFA from scratch, and we could've drawn expertise and technology from more countries (such as South Africa, Ukraine, Turkey, etc).

 

[DJ_Viper]

Hello sir,
Please don't open this Pandora's box again. It's been discussed to death.
Hint:- wing reinforcement on earlier blocks vs lack there of on B2 and A3View attachment 776884

Re-read my post and try to understand what I said. My post covers the entire green surface. Some of these are aluminum based and some are composite based structures. You are only pointing to the wing.

 

[Akh1112]

Though initiating Project AZM probably wasn't a good idea (as a rapid NGFA development), I do value ACM Sohail Aman's focus on working with what we already have. He's generally been vocal about the need to optimize resources (especially foreign currency) and reinvest in domestic capacity. This is the right approach, it's just a matter of designing the right strategy and executing correctly.

Sadly, he and his team overshot with AZM; I think the NGFA should have been a consortium play from the very start (e.g., we should've joined the Turks on the TF-X when they invited us in 2016).

I also think we should've focused on munitions (e.g., AAM, ALCM, PGB, SOW, etc) development more. Though difficult, the funding involved for those would generally be less than trying to build a FGFA from scratch, and we could've drawn expertise and technology from more countries (such as South Africa, Ukraine, Turkey, etc).

so, IMO tfx was as risky, you know how I felt about the tfx not too long ago, I think my piece is still on quwa?, the project seemed doomed also, major suppliers were dropping out, the Turks were in political turmoil, they hadn’t dedicated any significant share of funding towards it, I had more hope for azm than I did tfx, so I completely understand why it may not have been selected at the time. I still am somewhat skeptical about it, just less so after seeing their press release and rather realistic expectations, unlike someone *cough cough* ex acm who was going off on a tangent about directed energy weapons and allah jaane aur kya. So I think the real advantage in tfx lies in its somewhat, relatively underwhelming expectations(vs the f35), which could mean we do actually see it come to fruition, then developed further eventually.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Though initiating Project AZM probably wasn't a good idea (as a rapid NGFA development), I do value ACM Sohail Aman's focus on working with what we already have. He's generally been vocal about the need to optimize resources (especially foreign currency) and reinvest in domestic capacity. This is the right approach, it's just a matter of designing the right strategy and executing correctly.

If I was in Pakistan's shoes for a NG stealthy plane, here is what I'd do. I'd work with the partners (mainly China, Turkey, and Italy), and may be South Korea to some degree. Build a local industry. Take two JFT block III for R&D and make the prototypes. This would setup an internal knowledge base and expertise and overtime it would work in a similar manner like the JFT. A big percentage of materials can be built internally.

I've noticed that Pakistan doesn't do R&D much. JFT is a perfect example and it needed to be used for further R&D around internal sensors, weapons, and stealth. It seems as there is too much focus on pilot and tactics only.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Re-read my post and try to understand what I said. My post covers the entire green surface. Some of these are aluminum based and some are composite based structures. You are only pointing to the wing.

I'm only pointing the obvious because I want my speculation based on some proof that I can understand and back up... If the Airforce is so adamant on hiding what the green panels are that they plant the question twice in the same interview then I'll respect their secrecy to a certain degree... Rest I've lost interest ( you win paf ) in this discussion and the last time it took place, it ended up funny, ugly and involved a lost of chest thumping.... So sir, believe what you want it to be.. I'm enjoying the Radar discussion taking place and your input is highly welcomed.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

so, IMO tfx was as risky, you know how I felt about the tfx not too long ago, I think my piece is still on quwa?, the project seemed doomed also, major suppliers were dropping out, the Turks were in political turmoil, they hadn’t dedicated any significant share of funding towards it, I had more hope for azm than I did tfx, so I completely understand why it may not have been selected at the time. I still am somewhat skeptical about it, just less so after seeing their press release and rather realistic expectations, unlike someone *cough cough* ex acm who was going off on a tangent about directed energy weapons and allah jaane aur kya. So I think the real advantage in tfx lies in its somewhat, relatively underwhelming expectations(vs the f35), which could mean we do actually see it come to fruition, then developed further eventually.

Yeah. I think the decision to acquire the J-10CE is to minimize gaps while investing in the TFX. The PAF isn't taking an FGFA for granted -- it's still a loose variable. In fact, I doubt that the first tranche of TFX (assuming it materializes) would even capable of strike (to the degree the PAF needs) because it was not the intended role. The Turks had the F-35 for that role, so the TFX was more of a general purpose fighter to replace the F-16s. The reality changed, so a strike-focused TFX variant is probably on the roadmap, but 'when' is a big question.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

If I was in Pakistan's shoes for a NG stealthy plane, here is what I'd do. I'd work with the partners (mainly China, Turkey, and Italy), and may be South Korea to some degree. Build a local industry. Take two JFT block III for R&D and make the prototypes. This would setup an internal knowledge base and expertise and overtime it would work in a similar manner like the JFT. A big percentage of materials can be built internally.

I've noticed that Pakistan doesn't do R&D much. JFT is a perfect example and it needed to be used for further R&D around internal sensors, weapons, and stealth. It seems as there is too much focus on pilot and tactics only.

I agree with this, I believe JFT will play an integral part in the development of AZMS' subsystems....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I am completely calm and even more rational, but as it seems some are so over-excited that in case they see a green panel they are convinced it must be fuel, they see a slightly darker grey radome and so it must be different and low-observable! Come on guys ... it is an evolutionary progress but it has not a stealthy LO nose, it has no fuel cells in an area where a pilot sits and as shown by others certain pipes and cables go thru ... but ok, I understand your excitement.

wait till you are shown a green bucket inside the cockpit between pilot legs.
since its a law that green means fuel so he will have to carry that with him as he boards the plane full of fuel.

 

[DJ_Viper]

I'm only pointing the obvious because I want my speculation based on some proof that I can understand and back up... If the Airforce is so adamant on hiding what the green panels are that they plant the question twice in the same interview then I'll respect their secrecy to a certain degree... Rest I've lost interest ( you win paf ) in this discussion and the last time it took place, it ended up funny, ugly and involved a lost of chest thumping.... So sir, believe what you want it to be.. I'm enjoying the Radar discussion taking place and your input is highly welcomed.

There is no secret here. What secret could there be in a few green spots across an airframe? This isn't an "offensive weapon" that it's secret. It's the surface of the jet. It's either fixed and green shows it's fixed, or, it's strengthened. That's it. Not sure what more there is to it.