Is a Secular Pakistan the solution?

[haviZsultan]

Secularism is a system perfectly compatible with Islam and Pakistani society. Jinnah indeed wanted a secular Pakistan and strove for such a Pakistan. The word Islamic Republic was not added until much later after Jinnahs death. He wanted to prove to the Hindus and Christians that Pakistan would take care of them equally.

I believe in the mutazilite theories and in the vision of Ibn Rushd and Quaid E Azam. Secular Pakistan all the way. By merging religion with nationalism we have done a disservice to our loyal minorities and have paved the way for the brainwashing and creation of suicide bombers through the hate being taught in school textbooks. The Taliban version of Islam is not for us. In fact it is not Islam at all.

 

[Hiptullha]

Don't you think 360 million Muslims in a united India give them more power comparing now.

So the intentions of the Islamists in India was a powerful and dominant Muslim community. Don't you think that would cause tensions in India? You favor a powerful Muslim community under the control of an Islamist party? I thought you were anti-Islamist.

 

[Manindra]

So the intentions of the Islamists in India was a powerful and dominant Muslim community. Don't you think that would cause tensions in India? You favor a powerful Muslim community under the control of an Islamist party? I thought you were anti-Islamist.

Its not mean I favour, its just Deoband intention to become powerful in Muslim world.
Btw I am staunch anti-religious extremist (Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Christian.), they are cancer of civilized world.

 

[vegav]

Secularism is a system perfectly compatible with Islam and Pakistani society. Jinnah indeed wanted a secular Pakistan and strove for such a Pakistan. The word Islamic Republic was not added until much later after Jinnahs death. He wanted to prove to the Hindus and Christians that Pakistan would take care of them equally.

I believe in the mutazilite theories and in the vision of Ibn Rushd and Quaid E Azam. Secular Pakistan all the way. By merging religion with nationalism we have done a disservice to our loyal minorities and have paved the way for the brainwashing and creation of suicide bombers through the hate being taught in school textbooks. The Taliban version of Islam is not for us. In fact it is not Islam at all.

ya we saw what happened in the riots before partition? bharosa kaun karega bhai?

House of Saud's influence grew during 1980s, way after the formation of Pakistan ideology. So you are wrong. Islamists didn't favour Pakistan, they favored India and worked with Indian Congress while Pakistan mostly had people who wanted to create a state influenced by Islamic principles at the most and not a Shariah state.

it was a dare game dude,partition was the worst and least likely consequence of 1947 but shit happened.

jinnah dared nehru to go for partition,nehru would buckle but then the alternative was too chaotic the cabinet mission plan.

so rajaji went to nehru and asked him to call jinnah's bluff and thus it happened.

jinnah had a lot of pride and he accepted to become the quaid e azam and also the partition.

All rich hindus atleast in Pakistan seem to avoid meat like the plague and poor hindus in Sindh and Southern Punjab,s deserts only eat chicken,goats and wild boars

well sindhis here in mumbai eat meat voraciously.

we will be ok to if we chose to live next to mandar.. we got seprate country where we practice islam freely, all minorities are free to practice their religion. They can ring mandir bells when ever they want.. and mostly hindu christian sikh population live close to their places of worship.

in india muslims live very close to mosque only.

Haha 1947 mein to unhoan nay eid gift dia that lashoan ki bhari train ka

bhai,pehle toh muslim league ne hi shuru kiya tha and it is funny because punjabis have amongst the many people who are pacifist wrt hindu muslim.

Pakistanis are more likely to convert to agnosticism/atheism than hinduism(no meat)


It was made for muslims so they could break the chains of economical and political discrimination

And perform their religious rituals with ease that hindus find objectionable(there were riots in gujranwala in 1930,s because some one hanged dead calves on the clocktower)

beef is an islamic ritual?

 

[Adecypher]

Pakistan is a country where majority of the population strongly believe in religion and it plays major role in their lives. Therefore It is nearly impossible for any political party or individual to be completely out of the influence of religion. However, a conscious effort can be made to prevent the use of religion to further political ends and for that matter we need leaders who understand not just Islam in true sense but have good working knowledge of other religions and societies who do or do not follow any religion as well. This is to prevent the misuse of religion from controlling politics and religious sentiments from influencing relations between different communities. The change should be introduce in the society from grass roots level (i.e.primary education with either through the revision and or induction of the concepts of religious tolerance, non-violence, equality, sanctity of innocent human lives etc) which by the way every major religion preaches. But to walk in this direction we need sincere leadership....just my 2 cents on this topic.

 

[Dubious]

Lets take a look at the benefits.

From an economic perspective this will warm relations with the West if Pakistan is openly declared a secular nation. Trade would increase tenfold.

On a societal POV removing religion from the corridors of power will ensure mental lunatics with flawed education upbringing in maddrasshs and mosques would no longer be able to decide what is best for the country. Rationality and reason would become king and so would ethos of society in general - less corruption, inept leaders etc.

All banned religious militant wings would vanish. Sectarian conflict would end as government would become truly neutral.

In fact Pakistan would become a peaceful country. Terrorism would end as foreign intelligence agencies would back off.

Pakistani society is saturated with religious dogma. Too much of something is always bad even if it is good.

Eating too much food is bad. Too much exercise is bad. Religion works the same way. In fact over religiosity is a form of mental illness. Like conspiracy theory nutjobs or heroin addicts. They lose grip on reality.

Right now the country is controlled and influenced by dogma and people not fit to lead. Time to change this.

I think government and the law of Pakistan should be impartial to religion, aka secular. You can still have it be "Islamic Republic" for ceremonial reasons. Let molvies into the government and they will set the world on fire. Didn't JI's leader said some time ago that soldiers dying in FATA are not martyrs. In any case, doing that now would be suicidal; they shot Salmaan Taseer because he talked about reforming the law so the innocent don't get convicted. However, I do see this happening in another 100 years.

The way people say it should be secular is as though they just want to fit in....Do you know what secularism will do in the long run?

Will it bring PROSPERITY as advertised? No that comes from a working economy

Will it bring stability? No that comes from Justice

Will it bring equality? No that comes from reforming practices and understanding the value of life and respecting it! That comes from education and a good environment!



When have other models been tried? If you want to count the so called self declared ulema as religious example than I would say you know not even the basics of religion ! Deen ul Islam is not someone's private property nor is it what you equate it to...It is a system and if any part of the system is corrupted or not in check than that part will outshine and bring the rest down.....esp if you focus on it ONLY! It is not just the ulema who are retarded...THe population for WANTING their parental heritage like feudal system (Which chapter of the Quran did that sneak out from?) Which Hadith allowed the rich to to steal from the poor via tax and tax invasion?

The ONLY model tried since its independence is corruption in every form be it religious be it administrative be it juridical!

Islam actually never came in our lives ...

Had Pakistan been remotely Islamic (which people here are trying to use as a base) we wouldnt have illiterates, we wouldnt have child marriages at the ratio we have now, we wouldnt have child labour, we wouldnt have people prosecuting another in the name of religion (coz such is not part of Islam - however, if we can recall it were the Jahils of Mekkah who prosecuted the first few Muslims)

The day Islamic model is tried (plz dont give me Saudi BS) ...Islam doesnt allow monarchy as it prevents circulation of wealth...Islam doesnt allow interest but the world runs on it! Islam doesnt allow alcohol but we have people thumping their chest with bottles of booz! Islam doesnt allow prostitution but the wealthiest have never refrained! Islam says equality to all yet we have ACTIVE feudal system!

I ask again WHEN was Pakistan ISLAMIC? ONLY Quote me when you can answer this with honesty!

These are just the few I could think of from on top of my head in 5 mins....

 

[Hyperion]

His ami and abbu g told him that and that's how it also became part of some vague hadees!

Did Jinnah ever say that?

 

[Dubious]

Every time I talk about education on this forum....The hyper active Political lovebirds of the forum say Pakistan cant afford to be a welfare state we need development!

So which chapter of the Quran thought this?

How is it that religion is blamed for every failure of every bastard without a brain? Why arent the people concerned about the illiterate who will drag you down no matter what system you put in!

So far I dont see the people wanting educated Nation OTHERWISE their stupid party wont be elected if a Nation can think for itself!

Too bad your idea of Pakistan is NOT what Jinnah wanted.

1stly, when have we done Mr. Jinnah proud? Did he want a country of illiterates? I dont think that was on the agenda...

Did he want to preserve the stupid feudal system?

Did he want people to fight based on provinces? based on ethnicity? Or did he want us to live together?!

The only bloody thing holding us together is the very fact that majority of us are Muslims (and for those who arent SHOULD NEVER BE AFRAID OF US- because that is what Islam teaches)....We are Pujabi, Pashtoon, Sindhi, Siraiki, Balouchi, Patohari, Hunza, Kalash, Kashmiri and many other ethnicity....

Now tell me how many of you identify with this bit:

We are Muslims and for those who arent SHOULD NEVER BE AFRAID OF US- because that is what Islam teaches ....If we wanted to fight as we do we were the same in India why ask for Pakistan? Why use Islam as you shamelessly please? Stick to what you used! Coz your bloody politicians are not! And if you dont doesnt mean secularism is gonna work out...That too is gonna fail but in a worse catastrophe with moral degradation- we are only inches away from it anyway because we dont seek Islam as you can already see many looking for secularism ONLY TO BE ACCEPTED in the world while others coz they think it is an alternative- another form of USING another system like we used ISLAM to make Pakistan?!

 

[Sugarcane]

There is no Ctr+Z in real life, So, if we the history and narratives which are being taught, only than perhaps next generation will be able to draft sane laws and constitution.

 

[VelocuR]

I think, our old arguments will be running out, final decision will be made in 200 years from now.

Keep going

 

[Zibago]

beef is an islamic ritual?

Why ban it?

 

[vegav]

Why ban it?

because in hindu religion,we wont eat something which gives us its milk.it is there even in jewish kosher laws,the one which gave birth to halal later.

We dont need so much red meat due to the weather and philosophically it is a sin to eat the meat of gau mata.

 

[Thorough Pro]

How do you propose to remove religion from the power corridors of the country?
Religion is not a thing that can be removed physically, it resides in hearts and minds of the people. By the way how many people in the power corridors are religious or close to religion? 99% of them follow the religion of "Money" and for that they can sell their conscience, their daughters, their mothers and their country. Remaining 1% who actually follow some real religion have no say or weight.

The problems that Pakistan is and has been facing from the very beginning are created by power hungry, morally, ethically and financially corrupt characterless politicians, who use religion to exploit the general public but in reality are as religious as a prostitute.

Regarding flawed education of Maddrasah educated people, as I stated earlier their numbers in government does not carry any weight, the problem is with the people who are educated or more appropriately uneducated by conventional or modern education system, half of them have fake degrees (worse than maddrash educated) and the remaining half won't be able to read one page from grade 10 English text book.

Finally the responsibility is not with the politicians, its with the people who keep voting them again and again and again despite knowing their corruption, nepotism and incompetence why? because of cast system which is a polite term for blatant racism. A vast majority of people in all provinces casts vote on cast basis ignoring all shortcomings of the candidates. We all know these things but /I don't know why always point our fingers at religion? may be because either we don't have the courage to admit/acknowledge the real problem or are just plain stupid.

Lets take a look at the benefits.

From an economic perspective this will warm relations with the West if Pakistan is openly declared a secular nation. Trade would increase tenfold.

On a societal POV removing religion from the corridors of power will ensure mental lunatics with flawed education upbringing in maddrasshs and mosques would no longer be able to decide what is best for the country. Rationality and reason would become king and so would ethos of society in general - less corruption, inept leaders etc.

All banned religious militant wings would vanish. Sectarian conflict would end as government would become truly neutral.

In fact Pakistan would become a peaceful country. Terrorism would end as foreign intelligence agencies would back off.

Pakistani society is saturated with religious dogma. Too much of something is always bad even if it is good.

Eating too much food is bad. Too much exercise is bad. Religion works the same way. In fact over religiosity is a form of mental illness. Like conspiracy theory nutjobs or heroin addicts. They lose grip on reality.

Right now the country is controlled and influenced by dogma and people not fit to lead. Time to change this.

 

[HariPrasad]

Most Pakistanis have unknowingly been radicalized. Just look at the way people celebrated the murder of Salman Taseer.

What you say is a complete truth. Now wait for the wrath of those radicals. Now you have joint the forum, You shall witness many of them .

 

[I.R.A]

Islam and current Pakistan claiming to be an Islamic country are at 180 degree angle from each other. There is no Islam in Pakistan (exceptions on individual level are not counted), and honestly typing we never wanted Islam to be our guiding source, at least our actions don't suggest that. I would rather say it's a hypocrite state with Islam attached to its name but nothing Islamic about it. And current state of our moral affairs is more than what Secular extremists of Pakistan could wish for.