Is a Secular Pakistan the solution?

[Khalid Newazi]

patriotism is not the subject here, stick to what was discussing.

Secularists try to shove patriotism down people's throat. Look at Europe they are urging Muslim citizens to be British Muslims or French Muslims, meaning they are trying to shove patriotism and nationalism down one's throat.

 

[ajpirzada]

Okay, in case of extremists..i agree for the sake of arguing but not that at all will bring any near to the mayhem which the other side bringing in.

We are not lucky enough to get the best solution but forced to pick the least harmful one.

These are the typical characteristics of the secularists i encounter in pakistan. I take them as 'extremists' since the non-extremists on both sides are normally less visible and more accommodative in their discussions.

overall impact is difficult to quantify... the cost of these 'ills' is very long term. Anyways, i dont want to prove (and I cant) which one is more costly than the other.

Im happy with a generally religious society which Pakistan is. All i want is strong civil institutions which can be achieved without requiring any secular or religious narrative. If we have 'apolitical' and 'competent' police/FIA/IB/NAB/Judiciary, we dont need to worry too much about the extremists who will be taken care off by the law.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

When you are not secular, you are allowing religion to intermingle with politics.

Now, the one which is stronger will superimpose on other.

So you guys decide - Have politics ruined your religion, or religion have improved your politics?

Your take.

@waz @Oscar @Irfan Baloch

i dont know
maybe it did or maybe not

I believe both can coexist (look how well Saudis are running their country, Iranians too). you might have objection to their methods but there seems to be no conflict there in the running of the state.

we are different to them and just misunderstood both concepts to be honest with you.
forget religious parties
forget GHQ using Islam etc

look at the so called secular parties of Pakistan (don't you see contradiction to their narrative and what they stand for?) dont they run like a Caliphate and Dynasties?

at least Jamat Islami has elections and regular rotation of its chiefs and offer the option of rising from the ranks to the top slot without any hint of nepotism you see in our mainstream "democratic/ secular" parties.

 

[doppelganger]

I personally feel Pakistan's problem is not whether it is Islamic or Secular.

But that it needs the firm hand of the Army to rule it.

Your on-again off-again experiments with democracy have created chaos in your country.

I agree with Irfan. Look at the Saudis and the Iranians. Both having significant currency within your populace. That should tell you something. Democracy is not for everyone. Neither is military rule. Pick your poison and be happy, rather than strive for the appearance of that which you are not.

 

[rockstarIN]

Secularists try to shove patriotism down people's throat. Look at Europe they are urging Muslim citizens to be British Muslims or French Muslims, meaning they are trying to shove patriotism and nationalism down one's throat.

Isn't you migrate somewhere, you accept their culture ans life style?

 

[runa moosani]

Another stupid thread.

 

[Khalid Newazi]

Isn't you migrate somewhere, you accept their culture ans life style?

They promote freedom, thus one can follow the F**K they want.

 

[PoKeMon]

at least Jamat Islami has elections and regular rotation of its chiefs and offer the option of rising from the ranks to the top slot without any hint of nepotism you see in our mainstream "democratic/ secular" parties.

Quite similar to BJP.

Actually such parties serve you a cocktail of morality mixed with madness.

 

[Pakistani E]

look at the so called secular parties of Pakistan (

There are no secular parties in Pakistan Irfan Bhai. Some could be called liberal but even these so called liberals have used religion in politics whenever it has suited them.

On topic: The real question to ask is if the experiment of mixing religion with the running of state has yielded any significant positive results. If we accept that the rallying cry for the unity of Pakistan is Islam, then tell me why are we Pakistanis still killing each other over who is following the best "Islam"?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

There are no secular parties in Pakistan Irfan Bhai. Some could be called liberal but even these so called liberals have used religion in politics whenever it has suited them.

On topic: The real question to ask is if the experiment of mixing religion with the running of state has yielded any significant positive results. If we accept that the rallying cry for the unity of Pakistan is Islam, then tell me why are we Pakistanis still killing each other over who is following the best "Islam"?

agree with first paragraph

this is new phenomenon (I mean killing at industrial scale, Shia/ Sunni schism must have existed in Unified India too)
we have suffered it because the medieval ideology got halal dollars to spread like a pandemic affecting us too.

by the way talking about Pakistan, I agree this relgio-political cocktail didn't work in Pakistan

 

[doppelganger]

Shia/ Sunni schism must have existed in Unified India too

Doubtful.

How do you explain its virtual absence in Independent India?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Doubtful.

How do you explain its virtual absence in Independent India?

this schism dates back to early Islam, no one is immune. I qualified my term with the prefix "industrial scale"
if might not be at the level we see in Pakistan, Afghanistan or middle east but it does exist. the Deobani sect which is closely related to wahabi militant Islam finds its roots in Deoband/ India so I doubt if they have any favourable feelings towards shias. only issue they have is that they cant put their hatred into action since the Halal Dollars are blocked by the Indian sarkar (thankfully).

 

[doppelganger]

this schism dates back to early Islam, no one is immune. I qualified my term with the prefix "industrial scale"
if might not be at the level we see in Pakistan, Afghanistan or middle east but it does exist. the Deobani sect which is closely related to wahabi militant Islam finds its roots in Deoband/ India so I doubt if they have any favourable feelings towards shias. only issue they have is that they cant put their hatred into action since the Halal Dollars are blocked by the Indian sarkar (thankfully).

What about the even more basic fact that the Indian state will not allow any group to kill another Indian group willy nilly?

We have communal violence. It happens and then it ends. People die, and then the communities get on with life.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Doubtful.

How do you explain its virtual absence in Independent India?

that's true

moving on now
question is secular or not secular Pakistan and why and why not

 

[PoKeMon]

that's true

moving on now
question is secular or not secular Pakistan and why and why not

Pakistan is almost secular by heart barring few. Just wait for 2 more decades.