Introducing - JF-17 Thunder Block - II

[Stephen Cohen]

Oscar,

The bottomline is----when the public learns to look at the results---they are not going to accept excuses and sob stories by the paf---.

Paf may have a 1001 excuses. The mmrca started with the M2K---rafale was not in the picture---30-36 Rafales on a fastrak in 2002 - 03 would have sealed the deal for the JF17. Rafale came into the picture in 2004-05.

The end result is that the paf has failed in procuring an air superiority aircraft in the time it had to make the deal.

PAF was pursuing F 16 deal after 9/ 11 when Aid was available and sanctions were lifted

BUT even in JUNE 2003 --President BUSH publicly refused F 16 s
when General Musharraf went to Washington DC

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/24pak4.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/25/world/bush-offers-pakistan-aid-but-no-f-16-s.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MastanKhan

F 16 s were made available to Pakistan in 2005 after 9/11 sanctions were lifted


http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/03/25/jet.sale/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A800-2005Mar25.html

 

[SQ8]

Oscar,

The bottomline is----when the public learns to look at the results---they are not going to accept excuses and sob stories by the paf---.

Paf may have a 1001 excuses. The mmrca started with the M2K---rafale was not in the picture---30-36 Rafales on a fastrak in 2002 - 03 would have sealed the deal for the JF17. Rafale came into the picture in 2004-05.

The end result is that the paf has failed in procuring an air superiority aircraft in the time it had to make the deal.

I dont completely agree but you see how the bottomline comes without all the exaggerations and false premises you provided which is wrong.

The need for an air superiority aircraft would rest on the need to go fight outside territorial Pakistan and be able to establish Air superiority in enemy territory. Neither are requirements as Offensive Counter Air operations are now going to be switching to stand off systems and any battlefield air superiority has both sides with their respective air defense environments will continuously be contested. As soon as the battlefield switches to either territory, the advantage automatically shifts to that nation.

Air superiority fighters were concepts used to face down overwhelming numbers in non-networked environments. The ACEVAL exercises carried out by the USAF proved that bigger radars and bigger sizes arent useful in many scenarios; what matters is situational awareness which is not dependent on size but on the sophistication of the sensor and the number of sensor inputs.

Air superiority fighters suit those looking to fight outside their airspace and over areas not within reach. If air superiority fighters were all that would save nations; sweden would invest in them right after the Su-27 was heard of. I have already shown this in earlier replies to similar false notions put forward by you on earlier threads and dont have any reply that disputes this logically.

Oscar, save your energy please. The JF17 Avionics deal from ATE was sabotaged by the Mirage 2000 Upgrade contract in India with the exclusion clause specifically mentioning JFT. It was Thales that walked away from a finalised contract. Calling it a PAF failure is a stretch. however, the naysayers will have a nice jolt to the "ra ra" when they find out from "websites" whats really coming on JF17, God Willing. However, we should hold our horses and only tease the curiosity of the lads who come here to learn, not blah on the screen BR

I think the issue is that there is a vast cultural differrence between our neighbors and ourselves. I am not stating it as good or bad, just the differrence. Where one side will post news everytime they change a tire on an aircraft, the other is paranoid to not even let a whisper move when an entire weapons systems is deployed.

 

[The SC]

The past is gone, there is now and the future..

 

[HRK]

@Oscar what is this thing ....

1. LINKS 23 MM FOR JF-17 A/C

http://www.dgmp.gov.pk/PAF.php

is this also some form of Tactical Data Link .... ??

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar what is this thing ....



is this also some form of Tactical Data Link .... ??

Nope, just links for the 23mm GSH cannon. The ammunition is linked

 

[MastanKhan]

I dont completely agree but you see how the bottomline comes without all the exaggerations and false premises you provided which is wrong.

The need for an air superiority aircraft would rest on the need to go fight outside territorial Pakistan and be able to establish Air superiority in enemy territory. Neither are requirements as Offensive Counter Air operations are now going to be switching to stand off systems and any battlefield air superiority has both sides with their respective air defense environments will continuously be contested. As soon as the battlefield switches to either territory, the advantage automatically shifts to that nation.

Air superiority fighters were concepts used to face down overwhelming numbers in non-networked environments. The ACEVAL exercises carried out by the USAF proved that bigger radars and bigger sizes arent useful in many scenarios; what matters is situational awareness which is not dependent on size but on the sophistication of the sensor and the number of sensor inputs.

Air superiority fighters suit those looking to fight outside their airspace and over areas not within reach. If air superiority fighters were all that would save nations; sweden would invest in them right after the Su-27 was heard of. I have already shown this in earlier replies to similar false notions put forward by you on earlier threads and dont have any reply that disputes this logically.


I think the issue is that there is a vast cultural differrence between our neighbors and ourselves. I am not stating it as good or bad, just the differrence. Where one side will post news everytime they change a tire on an aircraft, the other is paranoid to not even let a whisper move when an entire weapons systems is deployed.

Hi,

One of these days you will LEARN that for all the failures---you cannot give out a ready made excuse---or blame the other party---you have to take your share of the failure and blame.

Paf has not accepted its failure to understand the previous sanctions of the 90's---they still blame the americans---and never have taken charge of their failures---even though they knew they were coming---.

Now that all you guys are seeing the same thing being repeated in front of your eyes---only that the final verdict has not been given---when the sanctions come this time---you will know that the paf had lied all thru the years and blamed the americans.

But there are many of you who already have learnt that the paf failed the last time as well by seeing what is happening now. And the paf lied thru its teeth all thru these years by falsely blaming the americans.

Sweden is already invested---Nato is ready and on standby---.

A fool would think that the russians would be concerned about Sweden only----.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

One of these days you will LEARN that for all the failures---you cannot give out a ready made excuse---or blame the other party---you have to take your share of the failure and blame.

Paf has not accepted its failure to understand the previous sanctions of the 90's---they still blame the americans---and never have taken charge of their failures---even though they knew they were coming---.

Now that all you guys are seeing the same thing being repeated in front of your eyes---only that the final verdict has not been given---when the sanctions come this time---you will know that the paf had lied all thru the years and blamed the americans.

But there are many of you who already have learnt that the paf failed the last time as well by seeing what is happening now. And the paf lied thru its teeth all thru these years by falsely blaming the americans.

Sweden is already invested---Nato is ready and on standby---.

A fool would think that the russians would be concerned about Sweden only----.

While it is a mantra you are repeating, I am still trying to see where the chronological and fact based proof for these failures is. Huzoor, if you are hell bent on setting an examples of ranting for the new members and the young generation; then let me start ranting.

It is YOUR generation that has failed us, you people were lazy and selfish about your own business and were too busy enjoying yourselves when our age. You failed us when you let the military get away with excesses, when you let dictators rule freely. The failure that you cry about is not the PAF, it is your own. You have failed Pakistan and its future and gave our generation this rot.

Now that you are unable to do anything about your failures, you try and blame everyone else.

 

[MastanKhan]

The past is gone, there is now and the future..

Hi,

The same thing is happening now---the current F16 fiasco----. Tell me what is different that the one from the 80's's-90's---there were the same warnings that were ignored.

This time the most important senators are saying---let them buy---we will sanction them and control them when we need to.

 

[Taygibay]

Just a bit of a refresher due to posts in the last 3 pages,

"The JF-17 Block-2 airframe is virtually identical to that of the Block-1.
The only external difference between the two is the Block-2’s incorporation of a fixed in-flight refuelling probe (which will be in effect from the 24th or 26th Block-2 aircraft produced). According to AC Mahmood, the JF-17 did not have enough room for a retractable probe."
​

From this decent source _ http://quwa.org/2015/10/17/jf-17-block-2-and-block-3-details-confirmed/

Also in that article, the reminder that up to 10 JF-17s are used for testing in Pak & China! Check :

That one is a Block III research / test bed aircraft.

So only conclude Block II if you can spot a refuelling probe and that's tough!
Here are two views of the 229 that is the first normal aircraft of the Block :

When facing the aircraft's left, one has no clues!
​

Hope that helps, Tay.

P.S. Even retouched this should be an e-wallpaper for many here so gift :

 

[The SC]

Hi,

The same thing is happening now---the current F16 fiasco----. Tell me what is different that the one from the 80's's-90's---there were the same warnings that were ignored.

This time the most important senators are saying---let them buy---we will sanction them and control them when we need to.

Well, now they just want Pakistan to do what they couldn't themselves..and put some pressure. The fact that the US is courting India will explain much of the intrigue; they want to use India in Afghanistan(now they are seemingly getting involved in the Afghan negotiations) and at the same time strenghten India to tackle China and push it to an arms race along with Pakistan..

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Just a bit of a refresher due to posts in the last 3 pages,

"The JF-17 Block-2 airframe is virtually identical to that of the Block-1.
The only external difference between the two is the Block-2’s incorporation of a fixed in-flight refuelling probe (which will be in effect from the 24th or 26th Block-2 aircraft produced). According to AC Mahmood, the JF-17 did not have enough room for a retractable probe."
​

From this decent source _ http://quwa.org/2015/10/17/jf-17-block-2-and-block-3-details-confirmed/

Also in that article, the reminder that up to 10 JF-17s are used for testing in Pak & China! Check :
View attachment 315220

That one is a Block III research / test bed aircraft.

So only conclude Block II if you can spot a refuelling probe and that's tough!
Here are two views of the 229 that is the first normal aircraft of the Block :

View attachment 315222
View attachment 315226

When facing the aircraft's left, one has no clues!
​

Hope that helps, Tay.

P.S. Even retouched this should be an e-wallpaper for many here so gift :

 

[MastanKhan]

Well, now they just want Pakistan to do what they couldn't themselves..and put some pressure. The fact that the US is courting Indian will explain much of the intrigue; they want to use India in Afghanistan(now they are seemingly getting involved in the Afghan negotiations) and at the same time strenghten India to tackle China and push it to an arms race along with Pakistan..

Is this what is happening

 

[Taygibay]

Thanks @DESERT FIGHTER , 109 was the refuelling post testbed aircraft.
You did well to dig it up!

All the best to you and yours my friend, Tay.

 

[MastanKhan]

Well, now they just want Pakistan to do what they couldn't themselves..and put some pressure. The fact that the US is courting Indian will explain much of the intrigue; they want to use India in Afghanistan(now they are seemingly getting involved in the Afghan negotiations) and at the same time strenghten India to tackle China and push it to an arms race along with Pakistan..

Hi,

I mean you sound so innocent in your post---did you not know that from the begining---. Did you not know what was coming from the americans once they started bombings from the north and pushed every terrorist into pakistan alongwith Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts---.

I have been writing about that for 10 years on this board---about this kind of scenario and you are telling me about it like it is fresh news.

And about the JF17---if we believe our Retd air force officer---what he has stated---then the JF17 program is far behind where everyone anticipated it to be now.

Then there is a much bigger concern for defense of pakistan than it was otherwise---. But then I don't believe him---I am sure the program is much farther ahead than he claims it to be---he is just trying to spread some misinformation.

Otherwise the sale to Nigeria and Myanmar would not have materialized and the aircraft would not have been sent out for air show fly bys and display----nice try though.

 

[araz]

Just a bit of a refresher due to posts in the last 3 pages,

"The JF-17 Block-2 airframe is virtually identical to that of the Block-1.
The only external difference between the two is the Block-2’s incorporation of a fixed in-flight refuelling probe (which will be in effect from the 24th or 26th Block-2 aircraft produced). According to AC Mahmood, the JF-17 did not have enough room for a retractable probe."
​

From this decent source _ http://quwa.org/2015/10/17/jf-17-block-2-and-block-3-details-confirmed/

Also in that article, the reminder that up to 10 JF-17s are used for testing in Pak & China! Check :
View attachment 315220

That one is a Block III research / test bed aircraft.

So only conclude Block II if you can spot a refuelling probe and that's tough!
Here are two views of the 229 that is the first normal aircraft of the Block :

View attachment 315222
View attachment 315226

When facing the aircraft's left, one has no clues!
​

Hope that helps, Tay.

P.S. Even retouched this should be an e-wallpaper for many here so gift :

View attachment 315230

Hi Tay.
The 2 pictureS of JFT with CFTs have long been regarded as PS. Therefore to rely on them forauthe ticity is falacious. However where there is smoke there is bound fo be some fire. I am not a soothsayer but the future may yet bring one of them to fruition.
Regards
A