Introducing - JF-17 Thunder Block - II

[The SC]

Hi,

I mean you sound so innocent in your post---did you not know that from the begining---. Did you not know what was coming from the americans once they started bombings from the north and pushed every terrorist into pakistan alongwith Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts---.

I have been writing about that for 10 years on this board---about this kind of scenario and you are telling me about it like it is fresh news.

And about the JF17---if we believe our Retd air force officer---what he has stated---then the JF17 program is far behind where everyone anticipated it to be now.

Then there is a much bigger concern for defense of pakistan than it was otherwise---. But then I don't believe him---I am sure the program is much farther ahead than he claims it to be---he is just trying to spread some misinformation.

Otherwise the sale to Nigeria and Myanmar would not have materialized and the aircraft would not have been sent out for air show fly bys and display----nice try though.

I am just repeating it , I know what you mean. For me the mere presence of India trough more than 20 consulates in Afghanistan (A country at war) was an indication of the services India was rendering to the US, now it seems it is reaping the benefits.. It is the US strategists who have created, initiated and played this game, so they are its genuine masters, It shows clearly that diplomacy has been played as an intelligence game, with all its components of covert, overt and deceit..Now India is the new mistress of the US (don't know if thie latter can be considered as a male or female, but it works in both cases)
It is Pakistan who has paid a dear price in men and in economics, but Did Pakistan had any other choice, due to the geostrategic position of the war in Afghanistan? I guess not; first the Russian invasion of Afghanistan (It seems that they had a plan for Pakistan too!), than merly 2 or 3 years later came the American Invasion.. it looks like they were both in some accord to occupy this strategic place of Afghanistan for the benefit of something higher (Since they both share the same Faith; if you remember well enough, the US called the Invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan: Crusades).
One can synthesise a lot from these facts..
Pakistan played the game forced uppon its shoulders, lost some and gained some. It is not for nothing that it has decided to go on its own or with a reliable partner towards indigenisation of some vital industries like Air force and Navy, JF-17, F-22 corvettes and the Agusta AIP submarines, Al khalid tank was also part of that plan..I personnaly consider the JF-17 a succes..

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

One of these days you will LEARN that for all the failures---you cannot give out a ready made excuse---or blame the other party---you have to take your share of the failure and blame.

Paf has not accepted its failure to understand the previous sanctions of the 90's---they still blame the americans---and never have taken charge of their failures---even though they knew they were coming---.

Now that all you guys are seeing the same thing being repeated in front of your eyes---only that the final verdict has not been given---when the sanctions come this time---you will know that the paf had lied all thru the years and blamed the americans.

But there are many of you who already have learnt that the paf failed the last time as well by seeing what is happening now. And the paf lied thru its teeth all thru these years by falsely blaming the americans.

Sweden is already invested---Nato is ready and on standby---.

A fool would think that the russians would be concerned about Sweden only----.

What about the success? No mithai for that?

By the way, nobody is more well aware of the PAF failures than PAF. Since I don't know who you are, I am sure you just pick up snippets from here and there and make mountains out of the mole hill.

I think you are a glass half empty sort of person. I would like to have a private conversation with you, and discuss with you the real reason of your bitterness and anti PAF agenda. Btw, some of your usage of aggressive verbiage is very creative. Failed writer?

I dont completely agree but you see how the bottomline comes without all the exaggerations and false premises you provided which is wrong.

The need for an air superiority aircraft would rest on the need to go fight outside territorial Pakistan and be able to establish Air superiority in enemy territory. Neither are requirements as Offensive Counter Air operations are now going to be switching to stand off systems and any battlefield air superiority has both sides with their respective air defense environments will continuously be contested. As soon as the battlefield switches to either territory, the advantage automatically shifts to that nation.

Air superiority fighters were concepts used to face down overwhelming numbers in non-networked environments. The ACEVAL exercises carried out by the USAF proved that bigger radars and bigger sizes arent useful in many scenarios; what matters is situational awareness which is not dependent on size but on the sophistication of the sensor and the number of sensor inputs.

Air superiority fighters suit those looking to fight outside their airspace and over areas not within reach. If air superiority fighters were all that would save nations; sweden would invest in them right after the Su-27 was heard of. I have already shown this in earlier replies to similar false notions put forward by you on earlier threads and dont have any reply that disputes this logically.


I think the issue is that there is a vast cultural differrence between our neighbors and ourselves. I am not stating it as good or bad, just the differrence. Where one side will post news everytime they change a tire on an aircraft, the other is paranoid to not even let a whisper move when an entire weapons systems is deployed.

Well, that would be incorrect. The program itself that began with the Super-7 back in the late 80's was based on providing a long range radar capability to the F-7 (Mig-21F-13) that Pakistan was buying. From there it evolved into the entire airframe being built from scratch with a BVR capability included from the outset.

As for the J-10, with the engine still Russian at that time and the aircraft having reliability issues in service with the PLAAF as per what the PAF knew, to finally the 2008 crash and the reign of Asif Zardari that was worse than any drought or plague left the PAF in no position for new purchases until recently.


There was a caveat to that requirement. I remember having this discussion with AVM S Hamid quite a while ago during his tenure at Kamra.

Shahid is still around, his son is doing business.

 

[Arsalan]

The range has been there for decades. It is being upgraded, and about to be made live again, relevant to current and future pursuits.

That was a must if we are to pursue the goals we set our self in future. JF17 as we see today is the start and through gradual up-gradations or existing facilities and integration of new ones we can set sight on bigger and better things in future. I hope we have large scale wind tunnel and related test facilities somewhere down this road as that would be required. The next big step can be radar cross sections examination setup.

A few things i would like to talk about and hear your thoughts on:

Proof that Jf17 is capable of carrying and firing anti radiation & stand off munition? Test video? Pic?

There is no ARM integrated yet. Various REKs are under trials.

There were talks about MAR-1integration with Mirages and JF-17. It was reported by Janes weekly and quoted on various sources. Plus I think we have seen those displayed with the plane/on publicity boards in exhibitions as well. Later on it was said that the missiles were integrated with Mirages and there was some delay with JF17 integration and it is still to happen. I think this was related to us being not sure about the avionics package (lots of options were being talked about back then). I hope we will see them or a different ARM operational with JF17 soon.
Here is a thread running on MAR-1 integration reports:
https://defence.pk/threads/integration-confirmed-for-brazils-mar-1-missile.107094/

Jf17 can refuel in air, proof? Refueling from Il78.......

Yet to be realised. South African probe and Mirage approach abandoned. Other possibilities being explored and tested/qualified.

So what about what we see on 229? That won’t be the choice? If so and if a replacement is being sought, that will surely mean further delay in integrating IFR probe and we won’t see those from 229 onwards with the earlier planes to be fitted with one later. This will be delayed and may go beyond Blk II. Any idea what was the problem with that system? What about the probe we see on 229? Will appreciate a detailed reply if possible.

far from exaggeration, but these boys do need to know, so I have given them something. The general disinformation and deception is getting to them

Quite a bad approach this by our military. We need to get over that 80s and 90s doctrine. Today the best way to win a war is to avoid fighting it. I can understand that you will like to keep the technical details secret but at least have to let the enemy know about your capabilities to some extent. Keeping everything under wraps like this makes no sense in current day and time. Also a bit more forthcoming attitude will answer the naysayers once and for all. Keep those little details secret but at least let your people and the world know what you MAY be able to do! A bad approach to PR by our military and all that while we try to market JF17 to foreign air forces.


I just hope with the test range getting functional again more details will start coming, not to quench my thirst but as it is beneficial for the program as well as the overall for the country as well.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

That was a must if we are to pursue the goals we set our self in future. JF17 as we see today is the start and through gradual up-gradations or existing facilities and integration of new ones we can set sight on bigger and better things in future. I hope we have large scale wind tunnel and related test facilities somewhere down this road as that would be required. The next big step can be radar cross sections examination setup.

A few things i would like to talk about and hear your thoughts on:


There were talks about MAR-1integration with Mirages and JF-17. It was reported by Janes weekly and quoted on various sources. Plus I think we have seen those displayed with the plane/on publicity boards in exhibitions as well. Later on it was said that the missiles were integrated with Mirages and there was some delay with JF17 integration and it is still to happen. I think this was related to us being not sure about the avionics package (lots of options were being talked about back then). I hope we will see them or a different ARM operational with JF17 soon.
Here is a thread running on MAR-1 integration reports:
https://defence.pk/threads/integration-confirmed-for-brazils-mar-1-missile.107094/



So what about what we see on 229? That won’t be the choice? If so and if a replacement is being sought, that will surely mean further delay in integrating IFR probe and we won’t see those from 229 onwards with the earlier planes to be fitted with one later. This will be delayed and may go beyond Blk II. Any idea what was the problem with that system? What about the probe we see on 229? Will appreciate a detailed reply if possible.



Quite a bad approach this by our military. We need to get over that 80s and 90s doctrine. Today the best way to win a war is to avoid fighting it. I can understand that you will like to keep the technical details secret but at least have to let the enemy know about your capabilities to some extent. Keeping everything under wraps like this makes no sense in current day and time. Also a bit more forthcoming attitude will answer the naysayers once and for all. Keep those little details secret but at least let your people and the world know what you MAY be able to do! A bad approach to PR by our military and all that while we try to market JF17 to foreign air forces.


I just hope with the test range getting functional again more details will start coming, not to quench my thirst but as it is beneficial for the program as well as the overall for the country as well.

So this is what the Chinese do. They propose something to PAF, PAF says okay do a preliminary study, they release the picture of a preliminary (pre-contract), pre order picture on the internet. The world goes haywire, the speculators speculate, and everyone starts making claims, specifically that have never seen a JFT or have any access to real information.

I am unable to give any more detail further to the opinion already given, based on technical analysis. Like most people here, I have no access to classified information. I am only able to analyse and give my opinion.

AND in my opinion, MAR-1 or ARM capability is yet to be realised in Pakistan.

 

[Taygibay]

Hi Tay.
The 2 pictureS of JFT with CFTs have long been regarded as PS. Therefore to rely on them forauthe ticity is falacious. However where there is smoke there is bound fo be some fire. I am not a soothsayer but the future may yet bring one of them to fruition.
Regards
A

My good Araz, the image I choose seems legit. Here is the ELA of it :

​

The only part that corresponds to a photo retouching is the pod; ( check diff. in luminosity ).
If it was modified, the process would not have forgotten the pod only, would it?

The CFTs are not an add-on although nothing proves them to be functional. They do appear
to be real parts on a real plane by that photograph even if dummies for aerology testing.

Please add your sources about it being fake. I can use ELA but am no expert so more info
would be nice.

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[Arsalan]

So this is what the Chinese do. They propose something to PAF, PAF says okay do a preliminary study, they release the picture of a preliminary (pre-contract), pre order picture on the internet. The world goes haywire, the speculators speculate, and everyone starts making claims, specifically that have never seen a JFT or have any access to real information.

I am unable to give any more detail further to the opinion already given, based on technical analysis. Like most people here, I have no access to classified information. I am only able to analyse and give my opinion.

I was asking for your opinion in light of the things i mentioned.

Anyway, some other time may be. What really get me worried is the thing you said about IFR. If this is some piece if information then it is quite troubling as it means that we wont be getting IFR from the planned 229 onward. What about the one on 229 what could have been the problems? AND if this is not some info and just an opinion as you mentioned, i will really appreciate if you can let us in on things that made you form that opinion sir. You insight and information from various other sources together with the input of other members can help form an educated opinion and avoid wild speculations.

I did pointed out quite a few issues but i understand you may be busy, still will like to read your thoughts on the matter of IFR probe if it is ok with you.

 

[Manticore]

My good Atanz, the image I choose seems legit. Here is the ELA of it :

View attachment 315282
​

The only part that corresponds to a photo retouching is the pod; ( check diff. in luminosity ).
If it was modified, the process would not have forgotten the pod only, would it?

The CFTs are not an add-on although nothing proves them to be functional. They do appear
to be real parts on a real plane by that photograph even if dummies for aerology testing.

Please add your sources about it being fake. I can use ELA but am no expert so more info
would be nice.

Have a great day, Tay.

http://picssr.com/photos/picnet25/interesting/page2?nsid=56985473@N08
zuhai airshow

https://military-photoshops.blogspot.com/search/label/cft

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I was asking for your opinion in light of the things i mentioned.

Anyway, some other time may be. What really get me worried is the thing you said about IFR. If this is some piece if information then it is quite troubling as it means that we wont be getting IFR from the planned 229 onward. What about the one on 229 what could have been the problems? AND if this is not some info and just an opinion as you mentioned, i will really appreciate if you can let us in on things that made you form that opinion sir. You insight and information from various other sources together with the input of other members can help form an educated opinion and avoid wild speculations.

I did pointed out quite a few issues but i understand you may be busy, still will like to read your thoughts on the matter of IFR probe if it is ok with you.

Aircraft are kitted out for IFR. Probe issues are related to some other issues, which are being resolved. Aircraft is IFR ready, and it shall be deployed.

 

[Arsalan]

Aircraft are kitted out for IFR. Probe issues are related to some other issues, which are begin resolved. Aircraft is IFR ready, and it shall be deployed.

So the plumbing will be there and we will just fit in the selected probe. Sounds almost fine. Can live with this.

My good Atanz, the image I choose seems legit. Here is the ELA of it :

View attachment 315282
​

The only part that corresponds to a photo retouching is the pod; ( check diff. in luminosity ).
If it was modified, the process would not have forgotten the pod only, would it?

The CFTs are not an add-on although nothing proves them to be functional. They do appear
to be real parts on a real plane by that photograph even if dummies for aerology testing.

Please add your sources about it being fake. I can use ELA but am no expert so more info
would be nice.

Have a great day, Tay.

mmmm boss, the pics says military-Photoshop.blogspot at the bottom

Not sure how authentic this can be taken as.

 

[Taygibay]

Thanks Manticore for that original : ( and Arsalan too )

​

You can see why by comparing the 2 ELA pics, I'd have a doubt.
In any case, that is one good photoshop effort, still apart from pod.
I guess they did overpasses to reduce error levels across the board.
So much for the blog guy pretending his fakes to be easy to spot.

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[Manticore]

Thanks Manticore for that original : ( and Arsalan too )

View attachment 315288
​

You can see why by comparing the 2 ELA pics, I'd have a doubt.
In any case, that is one good photoshop effort, still apart from pod.
I guess they did overpasses to reduce error levels across the board.
So much for the blog guy pretending his fakes to be easy to spot.

Have a great day, Tay.

https://defence.pk/members/timberwolf.1079/
I think this is the member
https://defence.pk/threads/need-photoshop-experts-for-paf-wallpapers.92218/page-14#post-4907425

 

[Taygibay]

I think this is the member

Ah, inactive since 2013 ... that won't help much but thanks again!

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This is around 1986----I am in Ogden Utah----7 miles from Hill air force base---the largest F16 base in the U S at that time.

Met a pakistani Sqdrn Ldr stationed at the base for logistics. Short guy maybe 5'-6''-----5'-8' tall fair skin. His claim of fame was that he survived ejection from an F6 over Shorkot air base---he fractured his neck during ejection and still survived---according to him he was one of the only.

Anyway he mentioned that pakistan had a patent with the U S on a Laser guided bombs---I cannot recall the details because it is 30 years old info---but he sure stated about the Laser guided bombs.

I have posted this info before----any takers?

 

[Sach Media]

Excellent

 

[araz]

So the plumbing will be there and we will just fit in the selected probe. Sounds almost fine. Can live with this.


mmmm boss, the pics says military-Photoshop.blogspot at the bottom

Not sure how authentic this can be taken as.

@Arsalan and @ Taygibay. Thank you for your posts.Adding on to what Arsalan has said,please also note the bird slicers ala F16s. Also note chin mounted hardpoints on both sides which means the canon would have to be shifted. That plus the site quoted makes it a PS. I dont know about the earlier picture but it does not seem legit either at least to me. So far the chinese to the best of my knowledge have not demonstrated functional CFTs on any of their platforms which suggests they cant make them. However once it comes about no one will be happier than me.