Introducing - JF-17 Thunder Block - II

[princefaisal]

How many block-I thunders have been upgraded to block-II standards and what is the timeline for the remaining upgradation?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

This is around 1986----I am in Ogden Utah----7 miles from Hill air force base---the largest F16 base in the U S at that time.

Met a pakistani Sqdrn Ldr stationed at the base for logistics. Short guy maybe 5'-6''-----5'-8' tall fair skin. His claim of fame was that he survived ejection from an F6 over Shorkot air base---he fractured his neck during ejection and still survived---according to him he was one of the only.

Anyway he mentioned that pakistan had a patent with the U S on a Laser guided bombs---I cannot recall the details because it is 30 years old info---but he sure stated about the Laser guided bombs.

I have posted this info before----any takers?

Pakistan invested with Thompson Optronique to integrate ATLIS pod in an F16, the first of its kind. For the configuration, Pakistan held IP rights. I believe this is what you are referring to.

Please don't mind, but your post is a good representation of your lack of understanding of avionics, and your inability to understand that the "patent" was not on GBU 12 but on the ATLIS ATP.

Hi,

The Thales fiasco hit the paf hard---they were all set for the french EW suite---which meant french weapons as well for the aircraft.

This aircraft was touted from the begining to be for air superiority---.

China never offered the J10's---it was Gen Musharraf---who on a visit to china asked for this aircraft---. The chinese said it did not exist---he pulled out a photograph of this aircraft---he got the deal.

This aircraft was on offer in 2012-13 by the chinese----18 of them for immediate delivery---the egos of the PAF got in the way----. That would have meant that they would have to admit to their failure.

The air chief rejected it by stating---" we are focusing on getting the aesa for the JF17 ".

The truth to the matter is that once Musharraf signed the deal and got approval for the J10's---the work on the JF17 should have been stopped and all effort put on the J10's.

Because the J10 would be at a higher pleateau than the JF17---and secondly---the chinese would be responsible for the total integration of an EW suite and weapons.

Paf would have received a fully functional aircraft---that they could modify and upgrade to their likings---.

People who are talking about russian engine----to them---if there would have been a problem---the chinese would not have signed the deal during Musharraf's regime.

Bottomline----out of its thickheaded approach---the Paf has chosen the hardest way to success---where they have been smacked back at every step due to poor and bad planning and a lack of foresight and vision.

The problem with the Paf is understanding the TEAM concept----. With them it is they---them and themselves---.

There are no mirrors in the restrooms at the air forces bases and paf academy.

This is mostly conjecture and fabrication.

The level of lies in this post confounds me. @Horus @Manticore

Lets start taking them apart 1 by 1.

1. The J-10 was known to the world around 1998-9. At no point did Musharraf ask for the J-10 after showing them a picture. I dont think he put that in his book nor will ANY airforce official back up such a ridiculous idea.
The first PAF officials to speak about the J-10 were the team that went to Chengdu to evalute the F-7MG. At that time the J-10 was going through its development cycle and a curious PAF team was shown the jet.
The chinese then pitched the jet to the PAF after a RFI was sent, and the aircraft was evaluated well before any visits by Musharraf as wrongly claimed. International aviation deals aren't decided by showing photographs.
The rest is also total BS and out of a person's own imagination due to their own poor experiences with the PAF on the personal level(god knows when in history).

Factually, the J-10 was offered on the same low interest loan as the JF-17 program was back in 2005-6 but in the J-10A configuration(@Bilal Khan 777). The PAF was not satisfied with that configuration and wanted a more refined jet considering that certain aerodynamic and systems improvements that were in the JF-17 could be put into the system. A spec was prepared for the PAF ready by 2008 but then Asif Zardari and his government hit; the rest is history. Not some ranting tirade.

2. No basis for this statement. Rant.

3. The JF-17 has no link to the J-10 and both programs have very different implications for Pakistan. One is a local light fighter to help build an industry and the other is just another Chinese import. Additionally, just having the capability to modify does not bring in expertise of aircraft design and systems development as the JF-17 did. Please provide an iota of proof to suggest that the trickle down effects of the J-10 would be the same as the JF-17.

People are much more willing to work with Pakistan in subsystems and electronics than with the Chinese due to utter lack of trust in Chinese IP faiths. Letting the Chinese do the integration meant we would be at their mercy to decide what they could put in there and what they could not. Again, just a "hawai fire" statement with no logical backup.

The end of the quoted post gives away the member's own frothing at the mouth in terms of their posts and leaves little room to guess that most of the post is made up and a rehash of already disproven rants. One can have a personal grudge but to trying and pass off that as fact is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who a few years ago would make sensible and logical posts.

Oscar thank for the detailed answer. There are some people on this forum that are spreading falsehoods, negative sentiments, and derogatory information only to demoralise the readers. It is our duty confront such "contributors" with correct information. Thank you for handling this one.

How many block-I thunders have been upgraded to block-II standards and what is the timeline for the remaining upgradation?

This will be a continued process.

That was a must if we are to pursue the goals we set our self in future. JF17 as we see today is the start and through gradual up-gradations or existing facilities and integration of new ones we can set sight on bigger and better things in future. I hope we have large scale wind tunnel and related test facilities somewhere down this road as that would be required. The next big step can be radar cross sections examination setup.

A few things i would like to talk about and hear your thoughts on:


There were talks about MAR-1integration with Mirages and JF-17. It was reported by Janes weekly and quoted on various sources. Plus I think we have seen those displayed with the plane/on publicity boards in exhibitions as well. Later on it was said that the missiles were integrated with Mirages and there was some delay with JF17 integration and it is still to happen. I think this was related to us being not sure about the avionics package (lots of options were being talked about back then). I hope we will see them or a different ARM operational with JF17 soon.
Here is a thread running on MAR-1 integration reports:
https://defence.pk/threads/integration-confirmed-for-brazils-mar-1-missile.107094/



So what about what we see on 229? That won’t be the choice? If so and if a replacement is being sought, that will surely mean further delay in integrating IFR probe and we won’t see those from 229 onwards with the earlier planes to be fitted with one later. This will be delayed and may go beyond Blk II. Any idea what was the problem with that system? What about the probe we see on 229? Will appreciate a detailed reply if possible.



Quite a bad approach this by our military. We need to get over that 80s and 90s doctrine. Today the best way to win a war is to avoid fighting it. I can understand that you will like to keep the technical details secret but at least have to let the enemy know about your capabilities to some extent. Keeping everything under wraps like this makes no sense in current day and time. Also a bit more forthcoming attitude will answer the naysayers once and for all. Keep those little details secret but at least let your people and the world know what you MAY be able to do! A bad approach to PR by our military and all that while we try to market JF17 to foreign air forces.


I just hope with the test range getting functional again more details will start coming, not to quench my thirst but as it is beneficial for the program as well as the overall for the country as well.

We already can measure RCSs, have a EWTTR, and other precision setups.

 

[nomi007]

how much composite material use in bloack II

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan invested with Thompson Optronique to integrate ATLIS pod in an F16, the first of its kind. For the configuration, Pakistan held IP rights. I believe this is what you are referring to.

Please don't mind, but your post is a good representation of your lack of understanding of avionics, and your inability to understand that the "patent" was not on GBU 12 but on the ATLIS ATP.
.

Senor,

I did not say it was---I did not say it was on anything----. I just repeated the context of a conversation some 30 years ago and thank you for the answer.

And you don't need to know everything you can just throw something up in the air and someone will come up with an answer.

 

[MastanKhan]

Please don't mind, but your post is a good representation of your lack of understanding of avionics, and your inability to understand that the "patent" was not on GBU 12 but on the ATLIS ATP.

Hi,

But I do know the americans better than all your military consortium put together---and all my predictions about what they would do with pakistan and how pakistan would screw up and has screwed up----have come true so far.

I don't keep up much on the electronics part---only need to know some basics---but guess what---I was the only one on this board and pakdef dot org who contested that it would take between 8---10 years + to integrate the JF17---I really wanted to write 15 years----but their was so much negativity and lambasting---that I reduced the number of years---.

There was NOT ONE TAKER of my comments on this board at that time---. So---maybe---I know a little bit---maybe only as much I want to give out----!!!!!

People strutted around with claims that the JF17 would be up and running in 1 year---2 years---.

If you had open access to the ACM---then you must be the rank of AVM----. What is it---you are like 5--6 years older than me----.

So---please don't mind when I say---the U S presented itself on a platter to you guys in the military----and you guys screwed it up and made pakistan the laughing stock of the world.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

But I do know the americans better than all your military consortium put together---and all my predictions about what they would do with pakistan and how pakistan would screw up and has screwed up----have come true so far.

I don't keep up much on the electronics part---only need to know some basics---but guess what---I was the only one on this board and pakdef dot org who contested that it would take between 8---10 years + to integrate the JF17---I really wanted to write 15 years----but their was so much negativity and lambasting---that I reduced the number of years---.

There was NOT ONE TAKER of my comments on this board at that time---. So---maybe---I know a little bit---maybe only as much I want to give out----!!!!!

People strutted around with claims that the JF17 would be up and running in 1 year---2 years---.

If you had open access to the ACM---then you must be the rank of AVM----. What is it---you are like 5--6 years older than me----.

So---please don't mind when I say---the U S presented itself on a platter to you guys in the military----and you guys screwed it up and made pakistan the laughing stock of the world.

When nobody "takes" your comments on this board, then maybe your comments don't have traction here. If you are so mature as you claim, then start getting the hint.

I shall not comment your insinuation yet again. You have the right of your opinion, just like me.

For the record, I have no access whatsoever, only some experience and some analytical skills which are unlike your negative assessment of everything Pakistani. Yes, you can stay in the US and claim to know all of the US, but as someone commented, it is the diaspora that has failed us, but moving to greener pastures, and easy for you to sit on your patio chair and drink your MGD, and call us traitors.

BR

 

[muhammadali233]

Pakistan invested with Thompson Optronique to integrate ATLIS pod in an F16, the first of its kind. For the configuration, Pakistan held IP rights. I believe this is what you are referring to.

Please don't mind, but your post is a good representation of your lack of understanding of avionics, and your inability to understand that the "patent" was not on GBU 12 but on the ATLIS ATP.



This is mostly conjecture and fabrication.



Oscar thank for the detailed answer. There are some people on this forum that are spreading falsehoods, negative sentiments, and derogatory information only to demoralise the readers. It is our duty confront such "contributors" with correct information. Thank you for handling this one.


This will be a continued process.



We already can measure RCSs, have a EWTTR, and other precision setups.

What do you think is the RCS of JFT? a rough guess would be fine.

 

[ghazi768]

Let's think in "Indian way" for a while.
Give me proof, if you give, fine. Otherwise you are lying........

Proof that Jf17 is BVR capable? Test video? Pic?
Proof that Jf17 can fire C802? Test video? Pic?
Proof that Jf17 can carry LGB? Test video? Pic?
What is Jf17 pure air to air configuration? Pic? Video?
What is Jf17 pure air to ground configuration? Pic? Video?
Proof that Jf17 is capable of carrying and firing anti radiation & stand off munition? Test video? Pic?
Jf17 can refuel in air, proof? Refueling from Il78.......
Proof about CM400AKG?

I have seen pics / videos of Jf17 carrying and dropping un guided bombs, WVR missiles and gun ........ that's it. Rest all dummy test missiles ......

Where is "proof" of rest?
Should we believe what ever PAF officials are saying ? Or as a Pakistani it's our right to SHOW proof of your claim since it is not a strategic secret.......

Do remember, HOPES were high for Blk 1, it failed to full fill our those color ful dreams which were shown by PAF to all of us. Same can be said about Blk2 ....... and who knows to how much level Blk3 will full fill our Dreams & expectations........

Now plz, prove me wrong and show me something ..........
I do have the right to ask,...... so does rest of people who always expect PAF to fly high in sky and repeating its dominance over enemy like it did in past........

I hope that you do not mind my mentioning your post again, it is just for advancing discussion..

First about what you mentioned as 'indian way of thinking'. My apologies but I find their 'way' quite strange, when it comes to JF-17 they'll raise all and any doubt even when 60+ are in operation. But when it comes to LCA they are happy to compare and declare it a winner, even when two are now being touted to have been inducted in a squadron for testing. They are all praise about its radar and its BVR capability which in fact is going to be integrated may be in 2019. For all intent and purposes the present prototype may not even contain a radar at this time. But that is their 'way of thinking'.

I think that on this forum we make a fundamental mistake at time, that is to mix PAF induction of a platform with its 'export model'. This may be because it is a first for PAF and Pakistan, we did not use to offer before a complicated air platform for exports. Air forces do not widely release information about their system and their capabilities, its the 'marketers' which do this for what ever weapons/systems they are allowed to export. At best you can use the publicly release info as a base-line to start analysing an air force's capabilities.

I hope you have read enough on the net to know that whatever capability is offered in an 'export' model has to be there. And also you may have come across opinions that 'export' models are usually toned down a bit from their 'real' capabilities. Armed with this knowledge lets look at the 'export' model of JF-17..

Does export version touts of BVR? off course it does. Not only PAF but CAIC the main marketing agent touts it a lot on every chance they get. For this they have actually created an 'export' version of their BVR missile, which you know off course is called SD-10. whether PAF's JF-17 has this capability or not or have a 'export' version of missile to fire, well you can speculate as you like.

Its not PAF which claims that JF-17 can fire C-802 or CM-400, CAIC claims this for the 'export' version and proudly show them at exhibitions and is ready to demonstrate it to any potential customer. Whether Pakistan has these missile or have ordered them or can somehow get 'non-export' versions is all up for speculation.

'Export' version of JF-17 does have the capability to laser guided bombs, for this CAIC offers WMD-7 pod and also LS-x version of LGBs such as LS-6 which it usually exhibit too. Whether PAF has acquired 'export' models of WMD-7 pods or not or are these even 'export' models is frankly up for speculation and discussion. I think that chances of PAF saying one thing or other in this regard are quite low for a few years.. let say they like to have some fog of war..

Can it fire anti-raditiation missiles? may be not.. but CAIC I think does offer LD-10 for export with JF-17. May be it is not integrated in JF-17 but will be available for 'export' models if somebody asks.

in short, suspicion or doubts sown be others frankly may not have any cure but sensible analysis can be done. And blaming PAF for trying to hide its capabilities and secrets is I think unfair, every one tries to do this and this is a sound practice as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

When nobody "takes" your comments on this board, then maybe your comments don't have traction here. If you are so mature as you claim, then start getting the hint.

I shall not comment your insinuation yet again. You have the right of your opinion, just like me.

For the record, I have no access whatsoever, only some experience and some analytical skills which are unlike your negative assessment of everything Pakistani. Yes, you can stay in the US and claim to know all of the US, but as someone commented, it is the diaspora that has failed us, but moving to greener pastures, and easy for you to sit on your patio chair and drink your MGD, and call us traitors.

BR

Hi,

I stated it would take around 10 years +++ to integrate. And that is what has happened----. So your intellectual self sir----instead of accepting acknowledgment from naysayers for my 10 years old comments---I should accept what!!!!

And my knowing of the EW does not mean diddly----. If you had learnt to understand the americans---knowing itsy bitsy things about ew suite would have meant nothing---because they would have been presented on the platter to you.

Remember---it is not about me---it is about the failures and successes of the paf on the air force threads---. And uptil now---it is all failures as far as one can look back.

" MATURITY " is by the way a pakistani terminology-----and me being away for 34 years and hardly knowing any pakistanis in the U S and barely travelled back home 3 time---I literally have ' NO CONCEPT " of this word anymore-----there is a vague feeling somewhere---but that is it.

in short, suspicion or doubts sown be others frankly may not have any cure but sensible analysis can be done. And blaming PAF for trying to hide its capabilities and secrets is I think unfair, every one tries to do this and this is a sound practice as well.

Hi,

And for those very reason---WE would like to bring the heirarchy of the paf to an INQUISITION CHAMBER---and administer the TRUTH SERUM---.

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

So---let us see how intelligent you are----.

I stated it would take around 10 years +++ to integrate. And that is what has happened----. So your intellectual self sir----instead of accepting acknowledgment from naysayers for my 10 years old comments---I should accept what!!!!

You are not too bright buddy.

And my knowing of the EW does not mean diddly----. If you had learnt to understand the americans---knowing itsy bitsy things about ew suite would have meant nothing---because they would have been presented on the platter to you.

Remember---it is not about me---it is about the failures and successes of the paf on the air force threads---. And uptil now---it is all failures as far as one can look back.

" MATURITY " is by the way a pakistani terminology-----and me being away for 34 years and hardly knowing any pakistanis in the U S and barely travelled back home 3 time---I literally have ' NO CONCEPT " of this word anymore-----there is a vague feeling somewhere---but that is it.

i think people in pakistan think that the only world is what they live in.its a bit harsh but been born outside pakistan i have experienced these things.when u go back home its all alien to u.some time u laugh at people who trying to make u fool and u know it.every thing is exaggerated there.every bpdy os lazy.no risk takers only time passers.then they enjoy on expat money.

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

And for those very reason---WE would like to bring the heirarchy of the paf to an INQUISITION CHAMBER---and administer the TRUTH SERUM---.

Good Luck for trying
My prayers are with PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

i think people in pakistan think that the only world is what they live in.its a bit harsh but been born outside pakistan i have experienced these things.when u go back home its all alien to u.some time u laugh at people who trying to make u fool and u know it.every thing is exaggerated there.every bpdy os lazy.no risk takers only time passers.then they enjoy on expat money.

Hi,

You made me crack up---can't stop laughing---.

I mean to say---look at pakistan air force----they have had sanctions for 10 years---their F16's cannot fly for 1 full day each because of lack of parts----and yet---when the market opens up---there is no urgency to equip the air force for the right aircraft---.

They were trying to find one excuse after the other---and this guy Bilal khan---IF he is that senior---could be a part of the team---who did not buy the right aircraft in a timely manner.

The air force heirarchy decided amongst themselves and told Musharraf---that their analysis says that there is no threat of war to pakistan---so there is no need for an frontline fighter aircraft---that is why we see such a big hole in our defenses.

Now as for building aircraft---no air force does that---you know why----because the war policy is not dictated by the air forces of those countries----the public thru its politicians decides what direction to take and recommendations are taken from the air force.

 

[ConcealCarry]

I remember that

Hi,

But I do know the americans better than all your military consortium put together---and all my predictions about what they would do with pakistan and how pakistan would screw up and has screwed up----have come true so far.

I don't keep up much on the electronics part---only need to know some basics---but guess what---I was the only one on this board and pakdef dot org who contested that it would take between 8---10 years + to integrate the JF17---I really wanted to write 15 years----but their was so much negativity and lambasting---that I reduced the number of years---.

There was NOT ONE TAKER of my comments on this board at that time---. So---maybe---I know a little bit---maybe only as much I want to give out----!!!!!

People strutted around with claims that the JF17 would be up and running in 1 year---2 years---.

If you had open access to the ACM---then you must be the rank of AVM----. What is it---you are like 5--6 years older than me----.

So---please don't mind when I say---the U S presented itself on a platter to you guys in the military----and you guys screwed it up and made pakistan the laughing stock of the world.

Seriously? are you really who you claim to be? I find the highlighted comment to be really stupid

When nobody "takes" your comments on this board, then maybe your comments don't have traction here. If you are so mature as you claim, then start getting the hint.

I shall not comment your insinuation yet again. You have the right of your opinion, just like me.

For the record, I have no access whatsoever, only some experience and some analytical skills which are unlike your negative assessment of everything Pakistani. Yes, you can stay in the US and claim to know all of the US, but as someone commented, it is the diaspora that has failed us, but moving to greener pastures, and easy for you to sit on your patio chair and drink your MGD, and call us traitors.

BR

 

[MastanKhan]

Seriously? are you really who you claim to be? I find the highlighted comment to be really stupid

Hi,

Took me a while to understand what he is saying---.

What he is saying is---" what does it matter to you---why are you concerned----those living in pakistan care less---why are you bothered---if those living in pakistan do not have a problem---why would you"---.

I am really surprised at the comment.

 

[nangyale]

Registering on this forum and my questions to you does't relate to each other...don't run away answers my questions.

I don't let you chicken out from here.

You know full duplex and half duplex FBW?

and what is RAM coating? and what is RAM

And please let us know on jets planes landing gear what type of oil / ? used for compression?

What is zero zero ejection?

I think the gentlemen were discussing something different to what you are bombarding. Why not you let them reply to each other, why so much rage?