Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

five new frigate is going to be the costliest one i think .

I'd imagine so.

For the most part, the costliest thing about the EF Tranche upgrades are the fact that you have to replace a lot of wiring and the radome itself just to fit the new components on the Captor-E. And that's only if they somehow manage to overcome the structural limits and power generation issue.

 

[JCMan]

Please continue, I'm enjoying the seething as well lmao.

Seething about proving how hypocritical you are? Right. LOL.

Not that it mattered much, since all of us have got you figured out from day one. A sideshow who constantly yapping and trying to convince people that:

Russian arms = bad
Korean/Asian arms = bad
European arms = bad, except certain companies that may or may not have any affiliation to your interests
American arms = stronk!!!

Oh and anyone except the Americans = corrupt

Right? Got it. Please feel free to rinse and repeat your cliche over and over and over again. Cheers mate!

 

[san.geuk]

Yes but for how much?

haven't found pricise cost, meanwhile the germany budget around 1.7 billion USD for radar integration with Hensoldt but i don't for many airframe it will be upgrade

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2020/06/22/hensoldt-takes-lead-german-eurofighter-fleet-aesa-upgrade/

 

[Chestnut]

haven't found pricise cost, meanwhile the germany budget around 1.7 billion USD for radar integration with Hensoldt but i don't for many airframe it will be upgrade

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2020/06/22/hensoldt-takes-lead-german-eurofighter-fleet-aesa-upgrade/

I'm asking about a couple of people on my side. Would be interesting to know how much.

Seething about proving how hypocritical you are? Right. LOL.

Not that it mattered much, since all of us have got you figured out from day one. A sideshow who constantly yapping and trying to convince people that:

Russian arms = bad
European arms = bad, except certain companies that may or may not have any affiliation to your interests
American arms = stronk!!!

Oh and anyone except the Americans = corrupt

Right? Got it. Please free to rinse and repeat your cliche over and over and over again. Cheers mate!

Hmmm, all of you? Is that right?

Also..

>imagine claiming not being obsessed with me but only ever having 8 posts on this website and the majority of that is towards me.

Please keep seething kiddo.

 

[Gen3115]

Seething about proving how hypocritical you are? Right. LOL.

Not that it mattered much, since all of us have got you figured out from day one. A sideshow who constantly yapping and trying to convince people that:

Russian arms = bad
Korean/Asian arms = bad
European arms = bad, except certain companies that may or may not have any affiliation to your interests
American arms = stronk!!!

Oh and anyone except the Americans = corrupt

Right? Got it. Please feel free to rinse and repeat your cliche over and over and over again. Cheers mate!

Bruh did you really make an account on here just to target one person lmao

and btw this is a forum, anyone can have opinions and views of their own, so instead of targeting one person on here, why not explain and back up why American arms are bad and/or why Russian, Korean/Asian, European are more suitable for us?

 

[JCMan]

I'm asking about a couple of people on my side. Would be interesting to know how much.


Hmmm, all of you? Is that right?

Also..

>imagine claiming not being obsessed with me but only ever having 8 posts on this website and the majority of that is towards me.

Please keep seething kiddo.

That's because I don't usually post in internet forums, but when I do it's because I was trying to help people to understand, and to shed a light on something glaringly obvious: a cunning salesperson trying to spin his agendas to the masses. Why? Because the fairy tales you're spouting are getting kinda old and boring, please move on to the next stories as maybe those will be more interesting. "Maybe" being the operative word.

And I'm still waiting your response about how you always have some gripe about Indonesia buying Korean or European arms, even now you griped about us buying European used equipment, but then you would magically approve if we were to buy more boneyard Lockheed and Boeing made warplanes. Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Gen3115]

That's because I don't usually post in internet forums, but when I do it's because I was trying to help people to understand, and to shed a light on something glaringly obvious: a cunning salesperson trying to spin his agendas to the masses. Why? Because the fairy tales you're spouting are getting kinda old and boring, please move on to the next stories as maybe those will be more interesting. "Maybe" being the operative word.

And I'm still waiting your response about how you always have some gripe about Indonesia buying Korean or European arms, even now you griped about us buying European used equipment, but then you would magically approve if we were to buy more boneyard Lockheed and Boeing made warplanes. Interesting, isn't it?

Then can you explain why its ok to buy used Eurofighters when they're only Tranche 1 despite the costs of acquiring and possible upgrading them?

Plus it was actually me and a few other people who actually suggested getting boneyard planes, I actually don't really have much problems with used planes as long as they still have relevant capabilities and are maintained well. No offense to @Chestnut, but yea he's the one who keeps pushing for new F-15's and F/A-18 Block 3's.

I think I explained a while back that the new F-15's are indeed very expensive to acquire (looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia deal, but this is because of their massive purchase of AESA radars and weapons stocks along with them) but they are lower in lifecycle and operational costs from the commonality and established infrastructure we have for US-made fighters. That's why I suggested AMARG/boneyard F-16's/F-15's as stopgap fighters or for dedicated Kohanudnas intercept squadrons.

 

[Chestnut]

And I'm still waiting your response about how you always have some gripe about Indonesia buying Korean or European arms, even now you griped about us buying European used equipment, but then you would magically approve if we were to buy more boneyard Lockheed and Boeing made warplanes. Interesting, isn't it?

I'll throw ya a bone.

Like I said before, the KFX program isn't going to give the Air Force any edge against the current OPFOR 5th gens nor the incoming 6th gens. They're inherently only marginally better F-16V and doesn't come close at all to the F-35, and that's not coming from me, it's coming from the Koreans themselves and literally every credible Defense Professional under the sun, hence why they're pretty much only replacing the Phantoms and Tigers with them. Their bombload and range is likely similar to the Super Hornet since they share the same engine, which begs the question why bother paying all that money for a clearly unproven design instead of simply buying something off the shelf for a lot less?

As for the second part, you sure it was me who suggested buying stuff from the Boneyard? Pretty sure it was everyone else but me. Or do you now think I'm making multiple accounts and talking to myself?

 

[Raduga]

That's because I don't usually post in internet forums, but when I do it's because I was trying to help people to understand, and to shed a light on something glaringly obvious: a cunning salesperson trying to spin his agendas to the masses. Why? Because the fairy tales you're spouting are getting kinda old and boring, please move on to the next stories as maybe those will be more interesting. "Maybe" being the operative word.

And I'm still waiting your response about how you always have some gripe about Indonesia buying Korean or European arms, even now you griped about us buying European used equipment, but then you would magically approve if we were to buy more boneyard Lockheed and Boeing made warplanes. Interesting, isn't it?

well this is discussion forum , everyone does have their own agenda in the form of opinion , it's just the matter which one that seems more logical .

 

[JCMan]

Bruh did you really make an account on here just to target one person lmao

and btw this is a forum, anyone can have opinions and views of their own, so instead of targeting one person on here, why not explain and back up why American arms are bad and/or why Russian, Korean/Asian, European are more suitable for us?

Nah, I had always read this forum to get the latest military info on Indonesia but previously had no real urge to post here. I found most posters here are generally casual enthusiasts and all about sharing and discussing. But when someone is CONSTANTLY spinning a certain agenda, well let's just say I wanted to make sure that people realize this as to not let those agenda cloud their judgement. When I say "their judgement", I didn't necessarily meant only the active posters here but also the silent readers who may or may not have the position to serve the best interest of our country.

 

[Chestnut]

But when someone is CONSTANTLY spinning a certain agenda, well let's just say I wanted to make sure that people realize this as to not let those agenda cloud their judgement. When I say "their judgement", I didn't necessarily meant only the active posters here but also the silent readers who may or may not have the position to serve the best interest of our country.

So you're inherently saying you also have an agenda. And you don't like it when other people may or may not have agenda but you assume they have one anyway?

Pretty cringe my guy.

 

[JCMan]

I'll throw ya a bone.

Like I said before, the KFX program isn't going to give the Air Force any edge against the current OPFOR 5th gens nor the incoming 6th gens. They're inherently only marginally better F-16V and doesn't come close at all to the F-35, and that's not coming from me, it's coming from the Koreans themselves and literally every credible Defense Professional under the sun, hence why they're pretty much only replacing the Phantoms and Tigers with them. Their bombload and range is likely similar to the Super Hornet since they share the same engine, which begs the question why bother paying all that money for a clearly unproven design instead of simply buying something off the shelf for a lot less?

As for the second part, you sure it was me who suggested buying stuff from the Boneyard? Pretty sure it was everyone else but me. Or do you now think I'm making multiple accounts and talking to myself?

When we decided to join the KFX program, we didn't do it just to get our hands on their capability as fighter jets now did we? So why are you focusing only on those aspects of the KFX program? When we joined the KFX program, we were not buying fighter jets, we were buying fighter jets technology. I'm sure you'd forgot to mention that since you were pushing us to buy more US made fighter jets. And if we were to follow through on your "advice", what will happen to all those funds and know how that we already spent and acquired? I'm sure you'd "advice" us further to cut our losses and just continue buying US made jets in the foreseeable future, right?

And I didn't say that you suggested about us getting the boneyard planes, I said that you'd approve i.e. having no gripes about that idea.

So you're inherently saying you also have an agenda. And you don't like it when other people may or may not have agenda but you assume they have one anyway?

Pretty cringe my guy.

My agenda does not include the interests of some foreign defense contractor, my guy.

 

[Chestnut]

When we joined the KFX program, we were not buying fighter jets, we were buying fighter jets technology.

Exactly what technology did we secure? The Koreans didn't give us IP rights nor manufacturing rights, and all the components they needed that couldn't be bought from COTS they developed it themselves without Indonesian involvement. So exactly what "technology" are we buying anyways?

And if we were to follow through on your "advice", what will happen to all those funds and know how that we already spent and acquired? I'm sure you'd "advice" us to cut our losses and just continue buying US made jets in the foreseeable future, right?

I'd tell you to negotiate with KAI and manufacture FA-50's here instead. The project was too ambitious for PTDI in the first place. PTDI had ZERO experience designing fighter jets, let alone assembling/manufacturing them. KAI got to the point they are now since they have been making the KF-16 since 1994, then started designing and manufacturing the FA-50 afterwards, and only after that did the start the KFX program. That is 30+ years of designing and manufacturing fighters. We didn't do that, we decided to skip all the steps, and are now stuck with a bad deal that doesn't benefit us that much because we aren't able to contribute much in the first.

A better step would have been for the SBY administration to negotiate local assembly/manufacture of the FA-50 instead. At the very least it would give PTDI more experience in manufacturing fighter apart from spare part manufacturing for the F-16's.

My agenda does not include some foreign defense contractor, my guy.

@Gen3115, looks like you have to call imigrasi, I guess he caught on that I am a bule!

 

[Indos]

I'll throw ya a bone.

Like I said before, the KFX program isn't going to give the Air Force any edge against the current OPFOR 5th gens nor the incoming 6th gens. They're inherently only marginally better F-16V and doesn't come close at all to the F-35, and that's not coming from me, it's coming from the Koreans themselves and literally every credible Defense Professional under the sun, hence why they're pretty much only replacing the Phantoms and Tigers with them. Their bombload and range is likely similar to the Super Hornet since they share the same engine, which begs the question why bother paying all that money for a clearly unproven design instead of simply buying something off the shelf for a lot less?

As for the second part, you sure it was me who suggested buying stuff from the Boneyard? Pretty sure it was everyone else but me. Or do you now think I'm making multiple accounts and talking to myself?

There is no relation of replacing phantom and Tigers with KFX with the notion that KFX is a second tier fighter for Korean Air Force strategy. Tigers and Phantom squadron in SK was ordered in the older time that need to be replaced sooner than F 16 an F15, so it is very logical to see KFX replace that older fighter. Take example of Indonesia, we will replace F5 squadron with the latest fighter we can afford.

And dont forget that Korea only buy 45 F35 without any plan to add it. One of the main reason Korea bough 45 F35 is also due to TOT they will get to develop KFX.

And KFX/IFX ( without 2 fuel tank) has much better combat range than F16 and F35 and the range is still very important for Indonesia by looking to our geography and our budget limitation to spread fighters across our vast archipelago.

And if KFX/IFX uses 2 fuel tank as its primary configuration it will have much much more range while if we put fuel tank in F35 it will make F35 major advantage in STEALTH become pretty useless.

 

[Fl0gger]

buat sales gimana gimana juga lebih baik beli dr pada bikin sendiri udh ga ribet jelas enak nya pakem nya udh masalah dagangan biar laku pake cara masing" atau bahkan menghalalkan segala cara ah sudah lah saya yakin dan percaya member real yg ada di sini sangat tahu dan paham karakter tersebut dan bisa membedakan yg mana dan bagaimana asal ga melenceng jauh ajah sabar diskusi jgn pake emosi silahkan bertukar pikiran kl sampe ada yang jadi anak band lagi jgn mewek sana sini mintol sana sini nuduh ini itu saya tak duduk mojok bareng mas aspri 08 sambil ngopi bicara ttg hana....ajah...