Indonesia Defence Forum

[Nike]

Anyone want to grab Abrams? They can use bio diesel apparently

 

[JCMan]

Exactly what technology did we secure? The Koreans didn't give us IP rights nor manufacturing rights, and all the components they needed that couldn't be bought from COTS they developed it themselves without Indonesian involvement. So exactly what "technology" are we buying anyways?



I'd tell you to negotiate with KAI and manufacture FA-50's here instead. The project was too ambitious for PTDI in the first place. PTDI had ZERO experience designing fighter jets, let alone assembling/manufacturing them. KAI got to the point they are now since they have been making the KF-16 since 1994, then started designing and manufacturing the FA-50 afterwards, and only after that did the start the KFX program. That is 30+ years of designing and manufacturing fighters. We didn't do that, we decided to skip all the steps, and are now stuck with a bad deal that doesn't benefit us that much because we aren't able to contribute much in the first.

A better step would have been for the SBY administration to negotiate local assembly/manufacture of the FA-50 instead. At the very least it would give PTDI more experience in manufacturing fighter apart from spare part manufacturing for the F-16's.


@Gen3115, looks like you have to call imigrasi, I guess he caught on that I am a bule!

Pardon me, when I said "foreign defense contractor" then I should have said "foreign defense company", as what I was trying to convey has got nothing to do with a person's nationality.

It would have made no sense for us to procure the FA-50 unless we plan on replacing the Hawks with an equivalent performance level fighters, which by just looking at the shortlist of Su-35, Gripen, and Viper then we can easily surmise that it wasn't the case. It was obvious that we planned on replacing the Hawks with a higher tier fighters than the FA-50.

buat sales gimana gimana juga lebih baik beli dr pada bikin sendiri udh ga ribet jelas enak nya pakem nya udh masalah dagangan biar laku pake cara masing" atau bahkan menghalalkan segala cara ah sudah lah saya yakin dan percaya member real yg ada di sini sangat tahu dan paham karakter tersebut dan bisa membedakan yg mana dan bagaimana asal ga melenceng jauh ajah sabar diskusi jgn pake emosi silahkan bertukar pikiran kl sampe ada yang jadi anak band lagi jgn mewek sana sini mintol sana sini nuduh ini itu saya tak duduk mojok bareng mas aspri 08 sambil ngopi bicara ttg hana....ajah...

My point exactly, Sir.

 

[Chestnut]

Pardon me, when I said "foreign defense contractor" then I should have said "foreign defense company", as what I was trying to convey has got nothing to do with a person's nationality.

It would have made no sense for us to procure FA-50 unless we plan on replacing the Hawks with an equivalent performance level fighters, which by just looking at the shortlist of Su-35, Gripen, and Viper then we can easily surmise that it wasn't the case. It was obvious that we planned on replacing the Hawks with a higher tier fighters than the FA-50.



My point exactly, Sir.

Then why are we buying around 2 more squadrons of LIFT jets? You do realize we still have the Hawk 53's to replace.

 

[Nike]

Pardon me, when I said "foreign defense contractor" then I should have said "foreign defense company", as what I was trying to convey has got nothing to do with a person's nationality.

It would have made no sense for us to procure FA-50 unless we plan on replacing the Hawks with an equivalent performance level fighters, which by just looking at the shortlist of Su-35, Gripen, and Viper then we can easily surmise that it wasn't the case. It was obvious that we planned on replacing the Hawks with a higher tier fighters than the FA-50.



My point exactly, Sir.

Hawk will be replaced, and indeed their capability is far below F/A 50 used by Philippines and South Korean

 

[JCMan]

Then why are we buying around 2 more squadrons of LIFT jets? You do realize we still have the Hawk 53's to replace.

To expand the T/A-50 fleet we already have? With the potential arrivals of more Su-35s and Vipers (and now Typhoons, perhaps?) then surely we'll need more LIFT jets before moving the pilots on to the front line fighters.

 

[Chestnut]

To expand the T/A-50 fleet we already have? With the potential arrivals of more Su-35s and Vipers (and now Typhoons, perhaps?) then surely we'll need more LIFT jets before moving the pilots on to the front line fighters.

So you're saying we should just buy them instead of potentially assemble them here?

Ans you do know that the Air Force wants to upgrade the T/A-50 to the F/A-50 right?

Anyone want to grab Abrams? They can use bio diesel apparently

Memes aside, working with the Army on the Leopards I have zero confidence in them being able to maintain a fleet of Abrams tanks. Even the officer I was assigned to work with said the same thing and he's been to the Armor School at Ft. Benning.

 

[NEKONEKO]

Anyone want to grab Abrams? They can use bio diesel apparently

Lah mesin turbin dong?

 

[NEKONEKO]

POLAIR caught pirates in the water north of Jakarta.

Drones would help us monitor our vast water.

 

[initial_d]

ok, i am going to troll here :p
Ditched the KFX, go for F-35 instead lol
Forget about EF-2000Tranhce 1, go for F-15EX
go for 2 squad of F-16v and look for used F-16 c/d from usa or norway
yes for osprey
adios guys hahahahaha

 

[Gen3115]

When we joined the KFX program, we were not buying fighter jets, we were buying fighter jets technology.

Oh man, I think you're going to be disappointed. We never really bought fighter jet technology from the KFX, with a 20% investment you won't get much anyway. Not too mention we don't have rights to design and manufacture yet either also not too mention our lack of commitment and will in the program. I support KFX but at this point I wouldn't put much hope for it considering our governments lack of commitment and I myself never really said to ditch the KFX program, but with the specs of the Block 1 KFX it would be better if we also consider more mature and proven capable 5th gens for the 2030's like the F-35 to go alongside the KFX. Personally I don't want to see the TNI-AU keep falling behind its potential adversaries and peers in terms of actual combat capability simply because we had too much faith in one program because of pseudo pride and prestige.

There is no relation of replacing phantom and Tigers with KFX with the notion that KFX is a second tier fighter for Korean Air Force strategy. Tigers and Phantom squadron in SK was ordered in the older time that need to be replaced sooner than F 16 an F15, so it is very logical to see KFX replace that older fighter. Take example of Indonesia, we will replace F5 squadron with the latest fighter we can afford.

And dont forget that Korea only buy 45 F35 without any plan to add it. One of the main reason Korea bough 45 F35 is also due to TOT they will get to develop KFX.

And KFX/IFX ( without 2 fuel tank) has much better combat range than F16 and F35 and the range is still very important for Indonesia by looking to our geography and our budget limitation to spread fighters across our vast archipelago.

And if KFX/IFX uses 2 fuel tank as its primary configuration it will have much much more range while if we put fuel tank in F35 it will make F35 major advantage in STEALTH become pretty useless.

There is actually, if you talk to South Koreans on other military forums, they have said that the only reason they're still flying Phantoms and Tigers despite having already having F-16's, F-15's and F-35's is because they need to be able to generate a level of air power when the need arises, relying on F-16's, F-15's and F-35's alone won't get them that number which is why they still have hundreds of F-5's, which is why they still pour money on these old airframes simply for the sake of airpower generation. Which makes sense that they would want to replace the F-5 and F-4 with the newer KFX, however this doesn't mean the Koreans see the KFX as a potential substitute or competition for the F-35, at least for the Block 1 and neither should we. Even the Korean Defense journalists I've talked to said that the KFX will act more as complement to the F-35 since thats what the F-4 and F-5 has been doing with F-16's, F-15's and F-35's.

And no South Korea isn't stopping at 40 F-35's, they plan to add more in 2021 as an addition to the F-X Phase 3 program and this doesn't include the possibility of more since they're going to need something to fill the decks of their LPX-2.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/sou...ans-to-buy-20-more-f-35-stealth-fighter-jets/

And btw, by all means this does not mean I think we should ditch KFX, I'm just saying we shouldn't rely solely on KFX especially with its obstacles regarding our involvement. I think I've said before that I'm hoping for a future TNI-AU frontline fighter fleet of F-16V + KFX + F-35A/B.

 

[san.geuk]

Oh man, I think you're going to be disappointed. We never really bought fighter jet technology from the KFX, with a 20% investment you won't get much anyway. Not too mention we don't have rights to design and manufacture yet either also not too mention our lack of commitment and will in the program. I support KFX but at this point I wouldn't put much hope for it considering our governments lack of commitment and I myself never really said to ditch the KFX program, but with the specs of the Block 1 KFX it would be better if we also consider more mature and proven capable 5th gens for the 2030's like the F-35 to go alongside the KFX. Personally I don't want to see the TNI-AU keep falling behind its potential adversaries and peers simply because we had too much faith in one program because of pseudo pride and prestige.

There is actually, if you talk to South Koreans on other military forums, they have said that the only reason they're still flying Phantoms and Tigers despite having already having F-16's, F-15's and F-35's is because they need to be able to generate a level of air power when the need arises, relying on F-16's, F-15's and F-35's alone won't get them that number which is why they still have hundreds of F-5's, which is why they still pour money on these old airframes simply for the sake of airpower generation. Which makes sense that they would want to replace the F-5 and F-4 with the newer KFX, however this doesn't mean the Koreans see the KFX as a potential substitute or competition for the F-35, at least for the Block 1. Even the Korean Defense journalists I've talked to said that the KFX will act more as complement to the F-35 since thats what the F-4 and F-5 has been doing with F-16's, F-15's and F-35's.

And no South Korea isn't stopping at 40 F-35's, they plan to add more in 2021 as an addition to the F-X Phase 3 program and this doesn't include the possibility of more since they're going to need something to fill the decks of their LPX-2.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/sou...ans-to-buy-20-more-f-35-stealth-fighter-jets/

And btw, by all means this does not mean I think we should ditch KFX, I'm just saying we shouldn't rely solely on KFX especially with its obstacles regarding our involvement. I think I've said before that I'm hoping for a future TNI-AU frontline fighter fleet of F-16V + KFX + F-35A/B.

if we dont get technology from kfx then why our engeeners send to south korea? what we persue then if they dont give us acces to their technology? if what your said is true, then some sokor defence facebook page who said our engeeners "loitering" become quite relevan, pointless if i may say, better we just pull back discontinue from kfx, go to airbus with that 2015 offer, renegotiate if we can access more to their upcoming program?

 

[Gen3115]

if we dont get technology from kfx then why our engeeners send to south korea? what we persue then if they dont give us acces to their technology? if what your said is true, then some sokor defence facebook page who said our engeeners "loitering" become quite relevan, pointless if i may say, better we just pull back discontinue from kfx, go to airbus with that 2015 offer, renegotiate if we can access more to their upcoming program?

To be fair they still learn and even contribute into the program, but from what I heard they're not getting their worth for 20% of the stake in the program and for 20% don't get you much in the first place. I am aware of the SoKor defence page on facebook and put it this way, if both Indonesian insiders and the South Korean defence page who has connections are saying the same thing about the program, why are some people still putting a lot of faith in this program?

To be honest, I still hope the government wakes up and make up their mind about this, but they can't because of the risk of pulling out (arbitration, cancellation fees, etc). I'm hoping they at least renegotiate for a better deal at the very least before manufacturing of KFX starts in 2026 (if all goes smoothly)

 

[Indos]

if we dont get technology from kfx then why our engeeners send to south korea? what we persue then if they dont give us acces to their technology? if what your said is true, then some sokor defence facebook page who said our engeeners "loitering" become quite relevan, pointless if i may say, better we just pull back discontinue from kfx, go to airbus with that 2015 offer, renegotiate if we can access more to their upcoming program?

I dont know with TOT but PTDI will absolutely get valuable design experience while working in KFX/IFX program. We will get blue print that will also be valuable if we want to make similar program in the future with Indonesia as senior partner. This is how we can make N 250 after JV with Cassa in CN 235 program. N 219 is also easier to be design after we get experience producing NC 212 under license.

About our contribution, dont trust fanboys opinion but rather listen to what people behind the program said. I still remember Indonesian Head engineer for KFX/IFX said that in the first time Korean dont believe with Indonesian engineers capability but as Indonesian engineers proves otherwise during the R&D and then Korean start to believe Indonesian engineers. He said that Max Take off ratio for example used Indonesian opinion and there was debate with Korean engineer at that time. It was stated in Angkasa if I am not mistaken. And it was before 2015.

We can see more information if we use Google, and there are more than 100 Indonesian engineers there and this is what we can get from Linkedin from just one engineer and he is quite young.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont want to show the name as it is related to my Linkedin connection.

My responsibility in KFX/IFX Program is about doing experimentation in the field of Aerodynamics especially Wind Tunnel & Water Tunnel Test.
What we do here are:
- Making accurate model for testing.
- Making data acquisition and data processing program for force & moment and pressure test.
- Preparing aerodynamics flow visualization test.
- Validating Test Result.

Starting June 2019, I have been assigned to Program Management Office at KFX/IFX Program to handle:
- Project Plan and Control of Aircraft Development Section at Program Integration Management.
- Industrial Liaison at Industrial Collaboration.

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More view from Anne Kusmayanti, Head of Ministry of Defense Reseach and the one who is responsible with KFX/IFX program.

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In making the prototype of the multi-fighter aircraft, according to Head of the Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati, PTDI will make wings, boosters at the bottom of the wing and tail.

Work on KF-X / IF-X fighter jets will be centered in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, South Korea, the city which is the headquarters and main factory of Korea Aerospace Industries.

A total of 200 Indonesian engineers have gradually departed for Sacheon for one or two years. At first they will design the aircraft design. The engineers will also participate in designing all aircraft components.

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ur-ri-buatan-sendiri-mengangkasa-9-tahun-lagi

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[joesatriyono]

hi folks, decided to move here since formil are pretty much gone quiet, i mean with the amount of potential "bantingan" for last six month, no one even bother to start a worthy discussion.
so for the latest news, the EF thing, i think MoD have a strong reason for putting the EF in the table at the first place, consider this, this whole drama are for replacing F-5 from skadron 14 right? while the skadron 14 main task are buru sergap, which pardon my if i made mistake, their task are air superiority and air interception right? so in other word, the replacement for F-5 are every fighter jets that have excellence in air to air capabilities are always welcomed to enter the discussion table?

 

[san.geuk]

hi folks, decided to move here since formil are pretty much gone quiet, i mean with the amount of potential "bantingan" for last six month, no one even bother to start a worthy discussion.
so for the latest news, the EF thing, i think MoD have a strong reason for putting the EF in the table at the first place, consider this, this whole drama are for replacing F-5 from skadron 14 right? while the skadron 14 main task are buru sergap, which pardon my if i made mistake, their task are air superiority and air interception right? so in other word, the replacement for F-5 are every fighter jets that have excellence in air to air capabilities are always welcomed to enter the discussion table?

welcome to our page,

thats perhaps the simple explanation, typhoon always considered as interceptor in their homeground