India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with India's politics over Russia. The ally helped India break Pakistan in two pieces. This friendship is not going well. USA has played a great role to isolate India and Russia. They thought Russia would suffer but that place has been taken by China. India will never get an ally like Russia. US stinks....

 

[Storm Force]

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with India's politics over Russia. The ally helped India break Pakistan in two pieces. This friendship is not going well. USA has played a great role to isolate India and Russia. They thought Russia would suffer but that place has been taken by China. India will never get an ally like Russia. US stinks....

You have clearly ignored all the posts from us........

THE RUSSIANS WANT $4 BILLION ..........that's with out the cost of 127 fighters

they want $4 billion of indian money tax payers money .........

WITH THIS MONEY they build a better PAK FA to indian needs called FGFA

INDIA then pays another $125 million for each plane AND RUSSIA makes money and keeps the TECHNOLOGY

INDIA WILL NOT AGREE THAT SCENARIO -----------THEY HAVE TOLD RUSSIA sort it out OR LOSE THE MARKET

 

[Peshwa]

FAKE PRIDE

$2.5 TRILLION GDP ................. Russia willcomr crawling back

OR USA ISRAEL & FRANCE WILL TAKE THE MASSIVE MARKET simples

We don't need to question the deep seated trust and partnership India and Russia enjoy, over comments from some hormonal teenagers who don't know their *** from their elbow.

Both countries are important to each other and will continue to collaborate on several projects of importance in the future.

LOL Russians can get 4 to 5 billion investment for PAK from many of More trusted Russian allies and China would Pay Russia 3 times more than India for TOT of any 5th gen Jet. What are the other Indian options for TOT of the 5th gen. Will India get TOT for F-35? Or can India get TOT for J-31.

Ok please name some of these countries that are willing to dish out 4-5 billion for the PAKFA.
Also, why don't the Chinese go ahead and pay 12 Billion now and get the PAKFA from under India's nose? Whats stopping them? Clearly your patron is a rich country and that amount is chicken feed for them as per your own admission.


India will find a suitor one way or another, Whether it be USA, France, or Japan.

But more importantly, the question you should be asking yourself is, IF the Chinese j-20 turns out to be a dud, what options does Pak have other than to twiddle its thumbs? But even before that, maybe you should be worried about that economy where you're trying to squeeze a dollar out of a dime! LOL

Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed with India's politics over Russia. The ally helped India break Pakistan in two pieces. This friendship is not going well. USA has played a great role to isolate India and Russia. They thought Russia would suffer but that place has been taken by China. India will never get an ally like Russia. US stinks....

why don't you let us worry about OUR friends? We know how to deal with them.
We don't need Pakistan, the perennial rookie of geo-politics and economy lecturing us on diplomacy and art of trade!

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

You have clearly ignored all the posts from us........

THE RUSSIANS WANT $4 BILLION ..........that's with out the cost of 127 fighters

they want $4 billion of indian money tax payers money .........

WITH THIS MONEY they build a better PAK FA to indian needs called FGFA

INDIA then pays another $125 million for each plane AND RUSSIA makes money and keeps the TECHNOLOGY

INDIA WILL NOT AGREE THAT SCENARIO -----------THEY HAVE TOLD RUSSIA sort it out OR LOSE THE MARKET

I won't say Russian and Indian friendship is based only on money. Russia can't be that greedy. After all now they've say in Middle east and to some extent has access to CPEC as well. All will help Russian economy.
Its because of India going to close to US. That's the main problem otherwise Russia won't wait a bit to transfer you guys the technology. Don't mind, what you're telling me is just a lame excuse.

 

[BHarwana]

Ok please name some of these countries that are willing to dish out 4-5 billion for the PAKFA.
Also, why don't the Chinese go ahead and pay 12 Billion now and get the PAKFA from under India's nose? Whats stopping them? Clearly your patron is a rich country and that amount is chicken feed for them as per your own admission.


India will find a suitor one way or another, Whether it be USA, France, or Japan.

But more importantly, the question you should be asking yourself is, IF the Chinese j-20 turns out to be a dud, what options does Pak have other than to twiddle its thumbs? But even before that, maybe you should be worried about that economy where you're trying to squeeze a dollar out of a dime! LOL

Look Lady with respect. There are only 3 directions available in the world. USA Russia and China.

Russia: Jets available but no TOT
China: Nothing available for India
USA: Buy as much as you can but no TOT

Rest of the countries don't have 5th gen.

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

[QUOTE="
why don't you let us worry about OUR friends? We know how to deal with them.
We don't need Pakistan, the perennial rookie of geo-politics and economy lecturing us on diplomacy and art of trade![/QUOTE]
You're not worth it. I won't spent time on you. What you doing here, the doer of world Trade and politics? Can't get any better forum?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We don't need to question the deep seated trust and partnership India and Russia enjoy, over comments from some hormonal teenagers who don't know their *** from their elbow.

Both countries are important to each other and will continue to collaborate on several projects of importance in the future.



Ok please name some of these countries that are willing to dish out 4-5 billion for the PAKFA.
Also, why don't the Chinese go ahead and pay 12 Billion now and get the PAKFA from under India's nose? Whats stopping them? Clearly your patron is a rich country and that amount is chicken feed for them as per your own admission.


India will find a suitor one way or another, Whether it be USA, France, or Japan.

But more importantly, the question you should be asking yourself is, IF the Chinese j-20 turns out to be a dud, what options does Pak have other than to twiddle its thumbs? But even before that, maybe you should be worried about that economy where you're trying to squeeze a dollar out of a dime! LOL



why don't you let us worry about OUR friends? We know how to deal with them.
We don't need Pakistan, the perennial rookie of geo-politics and economy lecturing us on diplomacy and art of trade!

Lemo.. Let's be serious.

Do you really think that Russia is going to go for ToT? Even France never budged on ToT for a 4.5 generation fighter (India was eventually forced to buy 36 Rafale off-the-shelf with zero ToT), how do you think Russia will give up their trade secrets for their 5th generation fighter?

 

[Peshwa]

Look Lady with respect. There are only 3 directions available in the world. USA Russia and China.

Russia: Jets available but no TOT
China: Nothing available for India
USA: Buy as much as you can but no TOT

Rest of the countries don't have 5th gen.

The point is having a 5th Gen aircraft. PERIOD! Those options exist.
The TOT option comes because we are offering to PAY for development 50-50 with cold hard cash!
Now please tell me, which other country is offering that to Russia. Go ahead.

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Lemo.. Let's be serious.

Do you really think that Russia is going to go for ToT? Even France never budged on ToT for a 4.5 generation fighter (India was eventually forced to buy 36 Rafale off-the-shelf with zero ToT), how do you think Russia will give up their trade secrets for their 5th generation fighter?

What would you suggest, what the problem is here pertaining to ToT? Is it only money?

 

[BHarwana]

The point is having a 5th Gen aircraft. PERIOD! Those options exist.
The TOT option comes because we are offering to PAY for development 50-50 with cold hard cash!
Now please tell me, which other country is offering that to Russia. Go ahead.

lol You are just offering to pay to upgrade the already made jet Pak-FA into FGFA. do you think it takes only 4-5 billion to develop a 5th gen.
And why would Russia sell TOT can India get TOT from any other nation?
All the countries that paid USA to develop F-35 never got TOT for the Jet they will get just the Jets.
If India is not paying there are many who are ready to buy PAK-FA as it is and Russia can upgrade it later.
If India is not willing to buy Pak-FA the next option is so expensive that India cannot afford the numbers it want.

 

[Peshwa]

Lemo.. Let's be serious.

Do you really think that Russia is going to go for ToT? Even France never budged on ToT for a 4.5 generation fighter (India was eventually forced to buy 36 Rafale off-the-shelf with zero ToT), how do you think Russia will give up their trade secrets for their 5th generation fighter?

Was India part of the development program for the Rafale? Did India risk investment in its initial development?
NO! Please don't compare apples and oranges.
Each situation and relationship is diff.
This situation is that of co-investment and co-development. The terms are different. We will obviously try to maximize the gain out of the investment. Whether Russia goes for it or not is what transpires between India and Russia. You're simply a speculator and a biased one at that.

And its not like India cannot throw that 5 billion to another country like france to have one of its private enterprises build us a stealth fighter if we cannot ourselves. Russia can play ball with a trusted partner and friend and in doing so gain an additional export item at half the cost, 25-30 billion worth of follow on order from one supplier and a powerful friend in the process that is on the rise.
Of course you Chinese would like to discourage this!

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What would you suggest, what the problem is here pertaining to ToT? Is it only money?

I don't think it's money at all. Imagine if you were a restaurant owner who made a "very special egg sandwich" that was the cornerstone of your entire business, and the entire reason that people came to your restaurant.

Now, would you give out the recipe to one of your customers? Once you did, you would lose all your customers and you'd be bankrupt.

It's not a question of the amount of money either, see China recently paid Russia over $1 TRILLION for a gas pipeline deal. Even $1 trillion won't buy their top end tech secrets.

Was India part of the development program for the Rafale? Did India risk investment in its initial development?
NO! Please don't compare apples and oranges.
Each situation and relationship is diff.
This situation is that of co-investment and co-development. The terms are different. We will obviously try to maximize the gain out of the investment. Whether Russia goes for it or not is what transpires between India and Russia. You're simply a speculator and a biased one at that.

And its not like India cannot throw that 5 billion to another country like france to have one of its private enterprises build us a stealth fighter if we cannot ourselves. Russia can play ball with a trusted partner and friend and in doing so gain an additional export item at half the cost, 25-30 billion worth of follow on order from one supplier and a powerful friend in the process that is on the rise.
Of course you Chinese would like to discourage this!

Only $5 billion? Like I said above, China paid Russia over $1 trillion for a single gas pipeline deal. And oil/gas is cheap now, the entire world is jumping over themselves to sell their oil/gas to anyone who will have it, we could have made the deal with literally anyone.

This is chump change for their fundamental business secrets! France and Russia aren't exactly poor to throw away their entire business for a few billion here and there.

 

[Storm Force]

5 billion $$$$$$$ DOLLARS can go on AMCA and to DASSULT OR LOCKHEED MARTIN to HJelp INDIA develop a INDIAN SPECFIC FIFTH GENERATION fighter.

The remaining $20 billion can be divided on off the SHELF purchase of 90 rafales and 45 F35 LIGTENING for the second indian carrier VIKRANT which arrives in 2020

THE PURCHASE OF 45 F35 for Navy gives india the fifth gen option albeit navy

RAFALE numbers go 126 fighters

AND TO REALLY PISS OFF RIUSSIA we GIVE THJE $10 BILLION SU30MKI upgrade to Israel or France

RUSSIA will bend MONEY ALWAYS TALKS

$100 BILLION MARKET my friends

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

I don't think it's money at all. Imagine if you were a restaurant owner who made a "very special egg sandwich" that was the cornerstone of your entire business, and the entire reason that people came to your restaurant.

Now, would you give out the recipe to one of your customers? Once you did, you would lose all your customers and you'd be bankrupt.

It's not a question of the amount of money either, see China recently paid Russia over $1 TRILLION for a gas pipeline deal. Even $1 trillion won't buy their top end tech secrets..

Beautiful answer. This is exactly what I had expected. A few users here say it's all about money. Russia wants to milk India on it's economy whereas, it's not the case.
Also, do you think ToT is less likely to happen, when you know, the country to whom you're considering for ToT is an ally of a country which is your rival? (Russia - India - US). I think it has some to do with this fact as well.

 

[Peshwa]

Only $5 billion? Like I said above, China paid Russia over $1 trillion for a single gas pipeline deal. And oil/gas is cheap now, the entire world is jumping over themselves to sell their oil/gas to anyone who will have it, we could have made the deal with literally anyone.

First off, its a 30 year deal and reportedly only 400 billion worth, so please don't go about fluffing numbers to buttress your argument.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27503017

And you're paying for the amount of gas and oil being consumed. Youre not doin anyone any charity. so I don't see a comparison to this situation.
Besides, if the projected cost of the project is 4-5 billion, why would we pay anything more, and not to forget the 25-30 billion in orders out of captive consumption?! Why wouldn't we try to maximize the gains for our risk? High risk high reward, no? We want TOT for the risk we are taking. Those are basic rules of investment.
Which other country will risk and guarantee that investment to Russia? If you know any, maybe you should drop the Russians some intel because they will be very interested.

This is chump change for their fundamental business secrets! France and Russia aren't exactly poor to throw away their entire business for a few billion here and there.

They may not be poor, but they still need cash. No one likes losing customers, especially paying customers.
Notice how quickly Pakistan was dropped by the US like a hot potato! Should tell you the value of a paying customer with deep pockets.