India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[Tamilnadu]

India need to make a Fighter desperately to counter JF-17 and India needs it done cheaply.

please dont post such stupid posts ? Its shows you lack of even basic knowledge about fighters.

 

[kmc_chacko]

This thread is about India issueing an ultimatum to get full tech transfer, include source code. And Russia will say no. India will leave with no other choice but wait in line patiently for f-35 while Pakistani stealth jets roam above Indian skies. India is becoming greedy and desperate with Russian arm suppliers and it will end up with nothing, nada.

Which ever way India goes, it is a win win for Pakistan.
India need to make a Fighter desperately to counter JF-17 and India needs it done cheaply.

is JF-17 is a stealth jet ? or does India need F-35s or PAKFA to counter JF-17 ?

 

[Storm Force]

The Russians are about to piss off the biggest arms importer of military hardware in the world.

Russia is a also RAN now in arms exports

INDIA IS DELIBERATLY moving way from Russia having had their arses burned ib Gorskhov fiasco and spares and serviceability of both the MIG29 and the SU30MKI

India will ditch the FGFA and SPEND the $25 billion on MORE rafales AS A STOP GAP and pour money into LCA and AMCA development probablt bringing LOCKHEED MARTIN as partners and consultants

RUSSIA can find a new buyer that spends $100 billion over the next ten years

india $100 billion going to ISRAEL FRANCE & USA

 

[faithfulguy]

is JF-17 is a stealth jet ? or does India need F-35s or PAKFA to counter JF-17 ?

The pace of how India buy weapons, Pakistan will have stealth jets way before India.

 

[Storm Force]

The pace of how India buy weapons, Pakistan will have stealth jets way before India.

is this after you buy the Jordanian F16 and the UAE mirages & the SU35B

 

[BHarwana]

is JF-17 is a stealth jet ? or does India need F-35s or PAKFA to counter JF-17 ?

What is JF-17 going to replace in Pakistan? Which Jet?

 

[kmc_chacko]

The pace of how India buy weapons, Pakistan will have stealth jets way before India.

PAF brought F-16s in 1983 and its the first 4th Gen Fighter for the Sub continent . But currently we are in 2017 i.e., 34 years of F-16 in PAF color and still it is PAFs prime fighter even though IAF moving on from 4th Gen to 4.5 Gen fighters and you are saying "Pakistan will have stealth jets way before India" .

 

[faithfulguy]

is this after you buy the Jordanian F16 and the UAE mirages & the SU35B

I'm not Pakistani. But India is Pakistan's primary enemy and the way India is going, Pakistan may induct Chinese 5th gen jets before India gets FGFA or F-35.

 

[Storm Force]

I'm not Pakistani. But India is Pakistan's primary enemy and the way India is going, Pakistan may induct Chinese 5th gen jets before India gets FGFA or F-35.

Pakistan CANT INDUCT 8 F16s

And your talking fifth generation fighters.

I have been reading that PAF are not too impressed with the J10 series and prefer more F16
But despite their desire for more F16/52 they are struggling to fund even one squadron due to USA resrtictions on grant aid... AND they are worried about USA sanctions of parts during a war with india.

THIS leaves the budget JF17 ... a fighter designed to the basic but lacking seriously on HMD/HOBS missles capability makes it a sitting duck in a dog fight. ADD the smokey unreiable Russian RD33 engines and thingfs don't look too hot.

5TH generation in PAF looks rather unreachable from here at the moment

 

[BRITISH]

hahaha haha india crying give me my jets

 

[Tamilnadu]

I'm not Pakistani. But India is Pakistan's primary enemy and the way India is going, Pakistan may induct Chinese 5th gen jets before India gets FGFA or F-35.

I have full faith in chinese 5 gen jets. they wont disappoint us..and we wish Pakistan goes for the chinese 5th gen jet and not for any other western ones.

 

[war&peace]

Nobody is going to release their trade secrets to their own customers! If they do, then why would their customers buy from them ever again?

India realised too late that France was never going to give ToT on the Rafale, so they were forced to just buy 36 of them off-the-shelf with zero ToT.

If France won't give ToT for a 4.5 generation jet, how do you think Russia will give ToT for a 5th generation jet?

Yeh but isn't it surprising that now they are demanding Russia to provide them on ToT while every minute details of the designs of not just 5th gen but all the subsequent gens and alien tech have been mentioned in their vedas...So why they are asking Russia now..why don't they just read their veda and make it

 

[salarsikander]

The Russians are about to piss off the biggest arms importer of military hardware in the world.

Russia is a also RAN now in arms exports

INDIA IS DELIBERATLY moving way from Russia having had their arses burned ib Gorskhov fiasco and spares and serviceability of both the MIG29 and the SU30MKI

India will ditch the FGFA and SPEND the $25 billion on MORE rafales AS A STOP GAP and pour money into LCA and AMCA development probablt bringing LOCKHEED MARTIN as partners and consultants

RUSSIA can find a new buyer that spends $100 billion over the next ten years

india $100 billion going to ISRAEL FRANCE & USA

Please go ahead I dare you. You still buy with them top notch stuff. T-90. S-400, ka helix about 400 of them. In fact your heavy armour is 90% of ruskie origin. You need them more than they need you

 

[sputnik]

Sources from the Indian Defense Ministry have told The Times of India that Delhi would participate in the joint development of a new PAK FA-derived fifth gen fighter in cooperation with Russia only if the Russian side included full-scale technology transfer as part of the deal. Russian experts are divided over the implications of this ultimatum.
Only last month, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the agency charged with regulating military-technical cooperation with other countries, told Sputnik that Russia and India had agreed on a draft contract for the joint development of a new fifth-generation aircraft, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) derived from Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) stealth multirole fighter.

However, on Thursday, the Times of India reported, citing Defense Ministry sources, that Delhi is conditioning the signing of such a deal with Russia on a full-scale transfer of technology, including the fighter's source codes. In addition, the Indian side is demanding that the FGFA project should directly aid a separate program, India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, as well.

"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from the Indian Air Force, which includes an Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur professor and former chiefs of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects," a source told the newspaper. "The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," the source added.

The source complained that Sukhoi's previous contract with Hindustan Aeronautics – involving the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI twinjet multirole air superiority fighters, did not provide for technology transfer; Delhi considers this to have been a miscalculation.

The FGFA project is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2014. Under the deal, Russia's Sukhoi Company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would develop an advanced derivative of the T-50 (PAK FA) fifth generation fighter. The multi-billion dollar project is set to include 43 improvements over the T-50, in areas including engine thrust, stealth capabilities, advanced sensors and onboard avionics, as well as supercruise (sustained supersonic flight) capability. Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

Russian experts are divided over the implications of Delhi's ultimatum.

Speaking to Radio Sputnik, Col. (ret) Andrei Golovatyuk, military observer and senior member of the Russian Officers Union, explained that the issue of technology transfer in general is an extremely sensitive one.

"By transferring our technology, we are creating the conditions in the recipient country to stop purchasing our military equipment over the next 10-15 years, and to use our technology to develop its own instead," the officer said. "This is about the same thing that happened with China in the past. In the 1950s and 1960s, we gave them a number of military technologies, and subsequently Beijing made a huge step forward in the development of weapons and military equipment."

"Something similar could now happen with India," Golovatyuk said. "Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.

The issue is further complicated, the expert noted, by the fact that military-technical cooperation with India is very important for Russia. "There is a saying: 'nature abhors a vacuum'. If we were to 'leave' India, the vacuum would immediately be occupied by the Americans, the Germans, the British or the Chinese, who are moving forward in leaps and bounds toward developing their own military equipment."

"India," Golovatyuk stressed, "occupies one of the leading positions in the purchase of Russian arms and military equipment, and we cannot lose this market. Therefore, we should weigh everything very carefully when making a decision."

For his part, prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

Ultimately, Litovkin too said that troubles or not, cooperation with India brings out the best in Russian designers. "In general, we should be forthcoming, listen to their complaints, but calmly proceed to do our work," the expert noted. "Yes, on the other hand, they can be cranky, but on the other hand, it's good for us: they force us to bustle about, to think about how to fulfill the tasks that they set for us."

"Everything will turn out ok," the observer emphasized. "We will make them a fifth generation plane. They just need to pay."

Finally, Mikhail Alexandrov, a senior expert at the Center for Military-Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, pointed out that full-scale technology transfer is outside the practice of any country engaged in the creation of advanced weaponry.

"No state engages in the export of cutting edge weapons systems– especially systems which are still under development. And no one ever sells the technology behind these systems – it simply isn't done," the expert stressed.

Moscow, Alexandrov noted, must clearly and calmly emphasize to its Indian partners "that there are no other countries – the French or the Americans included, willing to share their tech and the intricacies of their aircraft [with India]. I think it's to Delhi's advantage to deal with Russia as things are. We offer them more than other countries, including participation in joint projects, which offers a chance to learn, plus the opportunity to assemble the planes themselves in Indian plants. I do not believe it is worth going beyond that."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/

India should be worried abt this if Russia said "OK" to this conditions. As we both know this is not going to happen. Russia getting cozy with Pakistan is a pipe dream.
We should glad if tht happen. As both have empty pockets single paymaster.

 

[BHarwana]

India should be worried abt this if Russia said "OK" to this conditions. As we both know this is not going to happen. Russia getting cozy with Pakistan is a pipe dream.
We should glad if tht happen. As both have empty pockets single paymaster.

It is the Russians who are not giving India TOT, Why are you pissed of at Pakistan. Pakistani 5th gen is going to come from China. Now if India goes for USA 5th gen will Inda get TOT?