India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[Chinese-Dragon]

Nice try!
Your link is fron June 16 2011. My link from May 21, 2014.
I
don't try these gimmicks please.





I just wrote an entire explanation to you on it. I'm not going to spoon feed you, just go through the previous post.
Simply put, we believe our investment and risk profile for an untested fighter with no customers lined up is a risk enough to demand TOT. Especially in a changing political landscape.
In terms of business, it is us to manage our risk profile. If the Russians aren't for it, they wouldn't be negotiating.
If they don't want to move ahead they can take the risk themselves with their slowed down economy and we can give the business to their competitors.
In doing so, not only lose an important customer, but also fund your competition and potentially allow an ally to buy from geo political completion.

You are right, my bad. I didn't check the date on the link.

As for the rest, do you really think that giving away their most valuable tech secrets to their own customer is in their best interests?

India has nowhere else to go. USA and France won't give up ToT, not even on 4.5 generation fighters.

Only 3 countries have successfully tested 5th generation prototypes, USA, China and Russia. China is out, USA won't even let you sniff their tech (they won't even let Israel have access to the 5th generation tech), and Russia is putting their foot down as well. It's just not good business sense to give away your tech secrets to your own customers.

 

[Peshwa]

Do you ever feel guilt or remorse at referring to people as street mongrels repeatedly during a debate?

Don't worry, I'm not giving out any negative ratings today, just curious.

In my initial post, I actually meant charity to street mongrels. I actually used to feed dogs and care for them when I lived in India. Some people assumed I was referring to them as mongrels, that's not on me. Now the second post, that was purely intentional. and I have no remorse. Sometime I tend to fly off the handle.

Nevertheless, feel free to give me negative ratings. It really doesn't bother me. Ill usually say what I want to, when I want to and if I want to. The forum is entertainment for me, that's all.

You are right, my bad.

As for the rest, do you really think that giving away their most valuable tech secrets to their own customer is in their best interests?

India has nowhere else to go. USA and France won't give up ToT, not even on 4.5 generation fighters.

Only 3 countries have successfully tested 5th generation prototypes, USA, China and Russia. China is out, USA won't even let you sniff their tech (they won't even let Israel have access to the 5th generation tech), and Russia is putting their foot down as well.

Listen buddy, you and I can sit here and speculate whether you or I think the TOT will happen.

Point is, this is a negotiation between two business entities. Its the willingness to pay on Indias side and the willingness to deliver on russias and the gap between those two will define how close we are to each of those speculations.
The thread title says, is it preposterous to ask fot TOT?
I just told you that based on the risk profile, it is not. You think so.
Whether it will happen or not, your guess is as good as mine.
I'm simply trying to answer the question!

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

For the great humanitarian on PDF.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

I do charity too sometimes for-------
That's what their ally thinks of them. They say we've got deep pockets, billion dollar market.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Listen buddy, you and I can sit here and speculate whether you or I think the TOT will happen.

Point is, this is a negotiation between two business entities. Its the willingness to pay on Indias side and the willingness to deliver on russias and the gap between those two will define how close we are to each of those speculations.
The thread title says, is it preposterous to ask fot TOT?
I just told you that based on the risk profile, it is not. You think so.
Whether it will happen or not, your guess is as good as mine.
I'm simply trying to answer the question!

Sure, for India, getting ToT is a good deal. The best deal, I would argue.

But how good is it for Russia and France?

It's like I said before. Imagine you are a restaurant owner, and your entire livelihood, your ability to feed your family, is based around your specially made "egg sandwich" to which the recipe is a trade secret. It's the entire reason that customers come to your restaurant.

Now imagine a customer comes and offers you a lump sum, say 10x the cost of 1 transaction, for the recipe. Would you sell it?

 

[Peshwa]

Everyone knows who is the jack *** here. Don't worry, you're doing a great job. Read the article that has been posted. I wish you had before trolling. Then you would have known why I said "Fair Market Value". You're such a sore loser.

LOL! Now now don't be a sensitive sally.
Why don't you use that excellent education with your third grade reading level and just tell me what the fair market value is?
Give me the number!

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Russia ain't selling India anything at cheap prices. Now when the price has been increased, uncle Scrooge wants ToT. India would lose a cost effective supplier of weapons thinking they'll get US weapons. However, they can't afford the price of US technology. A country that can't get toilets for it citizens, how could it pay for US weapons? However, remember, they've gotten deep pockets, so deep because the pockets are ruptured from inside and your hand can go down all the way.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Now imagine that you made the sandwich at great cost claimed it to be "the best" but has never been reviewed that no one has tried, and that you had no customers for it, except your own family, for which you have to pay from your own pocket. Basically a burden more than a seller

Now imagine if an old trusted friend came in and said, I will split the cost of making the sandwich and guarantee that this untested sandwich has business for the next 20 years with enough profits to compensate you for cost plus more. Only condition is to share the recipe with me.

The assumption in your example is that Russias livelihood depends on it. It doesn't! Russia has only spent money on it and no other country is willing to take a risk on the development of the PAKFA at the level India is.
To me it makes sense for India. But as any customer, you try to get the most and as any seller you try to give the least at the most cost.
Both are right in their own benefit.
My objection is at people trying to make India look like we are being unrealistic or asking for too much. We are NOT! my opinion and you can take it to the press

Alright it's true that Russia has few other options (on this kind of scale), but that's also true the other way around.

Out of the 3 countries that have successfully tested prototypes (and/or inducted) 5th generation fighters, China is out, and the US won't share 5th generation tech, not even with Israel. Which means Russia is India's only option.

The other countries who have 5th generation programs (e.g. Japan, Turkey, etc.), they are not close to the prototype stage, the concepts are still all on paper. India might actually even be ahead of them.

 

[Peshwa]

Alright it's true that Russia has few other options (on this kind of scale), but that's also true the other way around.

Out of the 3 countries that have successfully tested prototypes (and/or inducted) 5th generation fighters, China is out, and the US won't share 5th generation tech, not even with Israel. Which means Russia is India's only option.

The other countries who have 5th generation programs (e.g. Japan, Turkey, etc.), they are not close to the prototype stage, the concepts are still all on paper. India might actually even be ahead of them.

It's a Mexican standoff!
Let's see who's able to negotate better no?!
Of course you see where we as Indians are coming from and I also acknowledge the Russian POV!
But on this forum we certainly aren't going to make the decision that it will or won't happen with certainty as many members here claim!

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Indians always dream about 'transfer of technology'- they talk and talk about it all day. instead of taking the only painstaking route of research and development, they pray that some1 else will send technology to them on a silver platter.

 

[ziaulislam]

so there is no TOT for Rafale? I thought they were going to be built in india?

nope all will be made in france

 

[Peshwa]

Indians always dream about 'transfer of technology'- they talk and talk about it all day. instead of taking the only painstaking route of research and development, they pray that some1 else will send technology to them on a silver platter.

It's called paying not praying!
We will pay for it based on how we value the product not the sellers blind demand for it!
No one has put a gun to Russia's head, they can walk away as can we!

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan CANT INDUCT 8 F16s

And your talking fifth generation fighters.

I have been reading that PAF are not too impressed with the J10 series and prefer more F16
But despite their desire for more F16/52 they are struggling to fund even one squadron due to USA resrtictions on grant aid... AND they are worried about USA sanctions of parts during a war with india.

THIS leaves the budget JF17 ... a fighter designed to the basic but lacking seriously on HMD/HOBS missles capability makes it a sitting duck in a dog fight. ADD the smokey unreiable Russian RD33 engines and thingfs don't look too hot.

5TH generation in PAF looks rather unreachable from here at the moment

only an idiot will buy an f-16 at the cost of 4 thunders or f-35
and we are not idiots there is difference between paying 200 million for 8 vs paying 700 million, i hope you can do the math

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

It's called paying not praying!
We will pay for it based on how we value the product not the sellers blind demand for it!
No one has put a gun to Russia's head, they can walk away as can we!

tell me what would happen to the deal if russia would not submit to this demand of 100% tech transfer?

 

[Peshwa]

Oh, sorry I should have told you the News before.
Idex 2017: UAE and Russia to develop fighter jet
http://www.thenational.ae/business/economy/idex-2017-uae-and-russia-to-develop-fighter-jet

This is not for a PAKFA. Below from the report itself.

Russia plans to develop a fifth generation joint light fighter aircraft with the UAE as Moscow seeks to boost its military exports to the region.

Its for a new category of a joint light fighter, a completely new platform. Dont mix the two.
India is willing to pony up 4-5 Billion for the PAKFA program which till now has been funded by Russia alone.
And UAE has not even presented any figures of investment, nor the guarantee of number of fighters to even compare this with the Indian deal.

So please try harder.

tell me what would happen to the deal if russia would not submit to this demand of 100% tech transfer?

Three options based on our priorities and threat assessments.:

• We live with it and buy it as offered with partial TOT.
• Partner with another country such as Japan with a budding 5th Gen program and high tech prowess, time consuming but a strong option
• Join an existing F-35 program through similar levels of investment and guarantee. See if buying enough numbers or throwing money can move some of the production of f-35 to india for indian consumption and get delivery sooner than 2025 or whenever the last current customer gets their order. This is with non-TOT of course.

 

[BHarwana]

Its for a new category of a joint light fighter, a completely new platform. Dont mix the two.
India is willing to pony up 4-5 Billion for the PAKFA program which till now has been funded by Russia alone.
And UAE has not even presented any figures of investment, nor the guarantee of number of fighters to even compare this with the Indian deal.

So please try harder.

Look lady I know it hurts when India has to pay for defense instead of being able to built but no one will sell the tech. Now Russia has already developed PAK-FA They will induct it them selves and also sell it to few countries. It is India who needs FGFA not Russia. World needs 5th gen USA is not selling to many countries so who else it is RUSSIA.
India will buy F-35 both Russia and India know that and Middle east who are more richer than India will buy PAK-FA because USA is not selling them F-35 because of Israel.