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‘Indians never knew Pakistan was so modern’

Indian channels are open here in Pakistan that is modernity but Kashmiri students jailed just because of a cricket match that is pathetic

I no longer think so.

Running an educational institution with hostel facilities in a diversified environment is a daily walk over egg-shells. Sometimes slightly bruised egg-shells. These are young men and women who are not always self-restrained, not always inclined to speak softly to keep other people calm. They are excitable, given to extremely dramatic displays of emotion, and to taking extreme positions on any issue. The result is often an altercation, sometimes violence.

What we have been trying to do on our own campus, with a student population that is heavily weighted towards one community, is to ensure that nothing extreme is done, nothing gets out of hand. The idea is to pinch things in the bud.

In doing this, we are not always democratic. We do not allow our students all the privileges that they themselves would enjoy just outside the campus, outside the gates, under the supervision and watch of the civilian police (as opposed to the campus watch-and-ward staff). Our students need to maintain a higher degree of self-restraint, a greater control over their tongues, than citizens in general. There is no process of grievance redressal through the judiciary; instead, we have a series of student committees that run things: the disciplinary committee, the prevention of sexual harassment committee, and so on.

We believe that we have to take these extra precautions, and impose these additional restrictions on our hostel residents, to a lesser extent on our day scholars. We think so because the parents and guardians of these young men and women have entrusted us with their safety and security, and it is necessary for us to go that extra mile to live up to these expectations that have been reposed in us. In doing so - this is ironic, even painful, and in some ways illegal - we actually impinge on their democratic freedom. Many of the students are over 21; they are considered rational adults and they should truthfully speaking be allowed those exact freedoms that they are allowed under the constitution. That they are denied this in an attempt to add a layer of security and safety to their natural environment is a matter of great pain, besides being illegal and unconstitutional, but I would rather we did this than face the prospect of a violent incident, or several violent incidents.

In the light of what we ourselves do, it is difficult not to feel sorry for the institution involved. They have to face the imminent problem of violence breaking out on campus; of injuries to students in their care, of removal of students not injured, but whose parents fear for their life and limbs; to intrusion of external elements who want to intervene, both politicians and rowdy elements; to hostile and slanted newspaper and media reports, affecting their image and their long-term viability as institutions of learning; to police intervention, if matters appear to be particularly outrageous; to a host of other consequences, imaginable and unimaginable. What are they to do? They did what I would do in the same circumstances: nip things in the bud by isolating trouble-makers and provocateurs; even expel them temporarily; fend off criticism from external people, especially right-wing political parties by filing an FIR and pointing to the measures taken, including expulsion; quelling retaliatory impulses within the other students, again, by emphasising the actions taken, and by hinting not very subtly that the same will happen if anyone takes to retaliatory violence.

The Kashmiri students in question would have had quite different experiences in off-campus society. For one, they would not have been supervised so closely; they might have done more than they did on campus; the reactions might have been far less restrained and the reactions might have been handled with less firmness than on campus, leading to greater damage and severe physical consequences. On campus, they were allowed less freedom than outside; they were also ensured greater safety, relatively speaking. They chose to express their freedom to its fullest constitutional availability, with no thought to the consequences, or perhaps with a mischievous intention among one or more of them to provoke the consequences and create a fuss. It is difficult to believe that they were wholly innocent of the furious reaction they would provoke, and that they were caught entirely by surprise.

Much of what I have said will be criticised, and rightly so. Institutional authorities have no business interfering with the basic human rights of a citizen, and they have no business taking unilateral action, never mind the provocations of one side. They really cannot expel students for expressing a partiality for a sports team. Having said that, it is sadly a feature of south Asian culture and society, perhaps even more, that young people are considered wards, even after they attain their majority. Wards of their parents, at least until they marry, wards of the college or university as long as they live on site and if they participate fully in campus life during college hours. As long as we have this protective attitude and as long as young idiots choose to create problems from whole cloth, we will continue to have precisely this kind of trouble on campuses throughout the country.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.
 
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I doubt Pakistan is even close to being modern. Can women wear bikinis in your country? Do you have nightclubs and bars? Is alcohol widely available? We in Brazil have many problems but modernity is not one of them. In fact we have gone off on the other hand :lol:
Another confuse soul who don't know the difference between modernization and westernization. There are stupid people out there who feel that everything a western does is modern even if its swapping partners or having one night stand with strangers. Modernization simply means embracing positive change, ideas and concepts . You can be modern without adopting western culture and ways of lives
 
Another confuse soul who don't know the difference between modernization and westernization. There are stupid people out there who feel that everything a western does is modern even if its swapping partners or having one night stand with strangers. Modernization simply means embracing positive change, ideas and concepts . You can be modern without adopting western culture and ways of lives

You are right, in principle, but I would be interested to know - genuinely interested, not to quibble or wear you down, but in order to look at your point of view - what practical examples you have to support your point.

I am also disturbed that most of your objections, which are, of course, different from your positive suggestions, are based on sexual norms, norms in particular that suit a patriarchal society and a male-dominated one. This is a criticism only insofar as one has a preference for one form of social structure over the other. I have a commitment to a form that denies male domination, and it is to that extent that I am disturbed.
 
The simple matter is, it is a matter of utter shame that India has no idea about the nation that it hates and obsesses over as a villian.
Compared to them, even Americans are better equipped to know about a midde eastern nation thousands of miles away than most Indians who know.. or rather ignorantly care little to know other than what their media spoon feeds them about a nation they can drive over to in a day or even less.
 
We really dont care what the indians think. Just buy are goods or leave them. But stop your moanings.

8-)
 
I doubt Pakistan is even close to being modern. Can women wear bikinis in your country? Do you have nightclubs and bars? Is alcohol widely available? We in Brazil have many problems but modernity is not one of them. In fact we have gone off on the other hand :lol:

As per your logic - tribes living in Africa in natural dress are more modern than you, even Europe
 
The simple matter is, it is a matter of utter shame that India has no idea about the nation that it hates and obsesses over as a villian.
Compared to them, even Americans are better equipped to know about a midde eastern nation thousands of miles away than most Indians who know.. or rather ignorantly care little to know other than what their media spoon feeds them about a nation they can drive over to in a day or even less.

Et tu, Brute?

Not one of your better posts, maestro.

The simple matter is that Indians have no idea about the nation that is India's neighbour, because the vast bulk of Indians don't really think about it.

Try a simple test. Find an Indian newspaper and track the news items about Pakistan that appear. Except at times of exceptional excitement (guess what these might be?), there is little interest in India. Only an interested and microscopic minority wants to know. Of these, the vast bulk are Internet Hindus, who hate Pakistan passionately and mindlessly.

A very few, very, very few, are interested enough and sympathetic enough to reply to mails that should never have been written by a known clear-headed thinker in the first place.

As per your logic - tribes living in Africa in natural dress are more modern than you, even Europe

They are, in some respects, including social organisation and the domination of one gender over another.

No point in obscuring our own blemishes by making odiously condescending and racist remarks.
 
LOL.

Whats modern about Pakistan? or india for that matter?

States like Malaysia, Turkey, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Brazil etc. are "modern" developing states of 21st century...with still a long way to go.

Pakistan and india do not even register on the map.

But hey, we have "modern" fashion. LMAO!
 
Et tu, Brute?

Not one of your better posts, maestro.

The simple matter is that Indians have no idea about the nation that is India's neighbour, because the vast bulk of Indians don't really think about it.

Try a simple test. Find an Indian newspaper and track the news items about Pakistan that appear. Except at times of exceptional excitement (guess what these might be?), there is little interest in India. Only an interested and microscopic minority wants to know. Of these, the vast bulk are Internet Hindus, who hate Pakistan passionately and mindlessly.

A very few, very, very few, are interested enough and sympathetic enough to reply to mails that should never have been written by a known clear-headed thinker in the first place.

Forgot to include Internet in that statement Monsieur.. apologies.

However, it is odd that a nation that is usually touted as the emerging Asian twin power has so little interest in what happens outside its borders. And by that I refer to the Media and educational exposure. Even the much maligned Americans have made some efforts to find out about mexico and Canada.
 
They are, in some respects, including social organisation and the domination of one gender over another.

No point in obscuring our own blemishes by making odiously condescending and racist remarks.

How it is racist remark?
 
Forgot to include Internet in that statement Monsieur.. apologies.

However, it is odd that a nation that is usually touted as the emerging Asian twin power has so little interest in what happens outside its borders. And by that I refer to the Media and educational exposure. Even the much maligned Americans have made some efforts to find out about mexico and Canada.
Not nation... its her people.
 
Excellent move...Pakistan is going through troubled times and if India (as a huge market) can serve in promoting Pakistani fashion, why not?

Art (I use the word fluidly) does not have any boundaries...

Arts, fashion and films should help at least bridge the person to person contact if not on a government to government basis...
Art and sports.......,.,
Pakistan players in ipl
 
The simple matter is, it is a matter of utter shame that India has no idea about the nation that it hates and obsesses over as a villian.
Compared to them, even Americans are better equipped to know about a midde eastern nation thousands of miles away than most Indians who know.. or rather ignorantly care little to know other than what their media spoon feeds them about a nation they can drive over to in a day or even less.

It's not just about Pakistan. Indians are the most insular people, period. Ask a tamil about the most popular serial in Delhi. He will have no clue. Ask any number of Indians from all over India about Nepal. Half of them will say it is part of India. Many don't even know that Northeast is a part of India. As a Jammuite, I have no idea about South Indians. I probably know more about Pakistan than tamil nadu or karnataka or andhra pradesh. Never been south of Taj Mahal.
Pakistan's population is less than UP. Ask people if they can name 5 cities in UP. Most Indians outside UP won't be able to.
 

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