INDIAN MIG 21 BISON CRASHES

[karan.1970]

Ignoring the rest of banter, coming to the red fonts....the JF-17 was designed to PAF specifications and requirements, the PLAAF are working on their own requirement version......going by your argument, until India inducts them, there has been no launch customer for the Rafale except the French themselves......what does that tell us. !! ??

What it does tell us is that while in case of Rafale, the manufacturing nation of that aircraft had enough confidence to trust this aircraft for their front line defense.. In case of FC 1.. well ....

 

[karan.1970]

It's like a Fish bone stuck in the throat....you can neither swallow it or spit it out.
The fact that only PAF has so far inducted it should suffice to put a lid on what role did Pakistan or rather PAF played in the JFT project. Since it has been openly said that it's a joint venture, hence we don't need people reminding us of it's authenticity, however it's a different case that our neighbour has to be repeatedly clipped around the ear in a vain effort to knock some sense for being in denial..... more so by the home crowd.

rediff.com: Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd) on the sad tale of the Light Combat Aircraft

The pompous drivel above aside, any details around Pakistani contributions towards the design though ?? I mean the ones not attributed to people in the know or uncles or friends in Pakistani forces ?? Or any components designed by Pakistan and inducted in the operational JFTs??

After all, as you pointed out in a PAK FA thread, a joint venture could simply be a financial arrangement

 

[abdulbarijan]

Quoting lines from old articles won't change the truth, no matter how much you want it to.
Tejas was in its prototype stage when these materials were used, however now is a totally different story.



Alloys for Tejas-Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI)
MIDHANI - Superalloys

Composites-Tata's Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML)
Livefist: State Agency Busy, Private Industry To Build Composites For Production LCA Tejas

Majority of the area of the airframe is composites and the composites are made by TAML so think it out for yourself if only 30% of the Tejas airframe is indigenous?
Tejas - Technology - Composite Materials



ejection seats-Armament Research and Development Establishment
DRDO


Only the HMDS system is provided by Elbit the HUD is done by CSIO, Chandigarh.
Mission Computer-The hardware unit development was done by ASIEO, Bangalore and software design & development by ADA.
Control & Coding Unit (CCU)-The hardware is developed by RCI, Hyderabad and software by ADA
Display Processors (DP) of LRUs in the Tejas-ADE, Bangalore
Mission Preparation & Data Retrieval Unit (MPRU)-LRDE, Bangalore
And most of the USMS Electronic Units also done by DRDO subsidiaries
http://www.lca-tejas.org/avionics.html



And your link also says this

This really discredits Tejas




Open Architecture Computer (OAC)-ADA
Multi Mode Radar-Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture
Tejas - Technology



As per Dr.V K Saraswat Tejas is 65% indigenous
LCA Tejas - Birth of Indian Fighter Aircraft







Laughing at something only you understand is just plain foolishness, let us not forget that JF-17 has even lesser Pakistani input than what India has on the Su-30MKI.

The main reason for the long development process of Tejas is the sanctions imposed by US especially the one in 1998Tejas was dependent mostly on Lockheed Martin's equipment, after the nuclear tests US govt. forced lockheed to terminate the Tejas program and every data on wind tunnel designs, simulators et cetra were withheld and not allowed to take back to India, thus DRDO had to start anew.

According to Dr. V.K. Saraswat sanctions were in actuality never removed since 1988, the window for development of Tejas opened only in 2005.
Walk The Talk with DRDO chief VK Saraswat Video: NDTV.com
9:20 onwards
Thus despite of the help that DRDO recieved, it had more adversity in the Tejas development.
Unlike JF-17 which doesn't even have a quarter of Pakistani Input, the Chinese did all the work for you.





And no one has ever said that "Tejas is totally and completely indigenous", you are the only one who is trolling so.
And how far has JFT evolved into Block-2?
Wasn't the JFT Block-2 to be inducted in mid 2012?
It seems like its another way round, you are the one who's itching coz your bubble's bursting.
And no matter what you say your most amazing JFT is still not inducted in PLAAF.

LOL! ... so just by adding what you did to the project makes it indigenous let me just state the pointers of my orignal post that still remain unaffected even when considering your post.

-Laser pods (litening) - by israel
-HMD - Israel
-Radar - Israel and Indian JV (not indigenous)
-Engine - USA (GE f404 and GE F414 in future)
-Weapons- Israeli / Russian (astara is not being integrated as yet, Derby is preferred over it as per latest news)

Now lets take another route to things that cannot be changed
The project definition/ design assistance/testing

Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.

Admiral (retd) JG nadkarni

The consultant, chosen from four contenders, was Dassault Aviation, France. Engineers, connected with design and development of aircraft know how vital it is to get the 'definition' correct. From this flows detail de-sign, construction and eventually maintenance costs.

- Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd)

Even today India imports parts for LCA worth millions from BAE

A laboratory of the DRDO, the Aeronautical Development Establishment ( ADE), entered into a contract with BAE Systems Overseas Inc for the supply of 15 ship sets of IFCS and LRUs for the LCA at a total cost of more than $ 30 million, which works out to Rs.135 crore.

Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North, News - India Today

Naik said the upgraded aircraft would be in the same league as Saab’s Gripen NG fighter, one of the contenders for the Air Force’s $10 billion (Rs 45,000 crore) contract for 126 fighter jets.

The aircraft’s indigenous content will go up from the current 60% to 75% in the upgraded version. The per unit cost of the combat variant of the LCA works out to Rs. 180 crore to Rs. 200 crore, while the two seat trainer version costs Rs. 210 crore.

Your own airchief is saying 60%, however its not that much of a surprise seeing the past

‘‘Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the fly-by-wire control, avionics and engine are not ours,’’ he said. ‘‘So who are we fooling by saying that 70 per cent of the LCA is indigenous,’’ he asks, while crediting the scientists with effective system integration.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) claims that almost 70 per cent of the aircraft, including the tyres, tubes, brakes, part of avionics and airframe are indigenous. British Aerospace were consultants to the development of LCA.

Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings

This is back in 2001, so the way i see it, your not even at a point where DRDO or HAL's current statements can match the statements from the past ....

FACT : JF-17 and LCA both are not indigenous ...


As for PLAAF, ofcourse they have not opted for JF-17 as of yet, where as PAF's airchief is on record saying that "JF-17 will find its place in the PLAAF" and the fact that the FC-1 is being continuously put through testing along side J-20, J-10B with new weapons on board on an entire new Prototype says something however its not much of a deal since

IAF itself is today preferring flying coffins over LCA ...
so enjoy your bubble bath while bragging to burst bubbles while the reality is the exact opposite of what your perceiving.

 

[longewala]

there is huge difference between the Mig-21 bison and older Mig-21s. The Bison is a newer plane, better maintained. It is not like the older Mig-21s which are practically inoperational. Even the newer J-7s of ther PAF have seen six crashes in the last 5 years, and the odd crash of a Bison is not a crisis.

And in any case there is no comparison between JF-17 and LCA
1. the LCA is actually Indian design, R&D. Whether it is 65% or 55% indigenous is irrelevant because any system would involve foreign sub-components and systems. Would you call the ipad and iphone to be Chinese or taiwanese because they make the components?
What is important is that from abolute zero, we have created the design, infrastructure, project management knowhow, developed the entire component manufacturing chain.
In comparison, if pakistan were to try and design a jet, they would start from zero, the same level we were in 1985. The JF-17 should not be compared even to the Su-30, a better comparison would be assembly of Mig-21s by India in the 1970s. Yes that is how far behind they are.

2. You have to remember there is a huge gap in standards between IAF, a modern air force that has flown BVR-capable aircraft for almost 30 years, and PAF. India could LCA-mk1 today, but they would prefer to wait for the LCA mk-2 which is far superior to both LCA mk-1 and JF-17.
On the other hand the PAF had 70 F-16s, 180 J-7s which are inferior to even the bisons and 150 Mirage jets that are mostly over 40 year old.

The Mirage-3/5s are 15 years older than even the Mig-21 Bisons. Which means almost half of the PAF is obsolete even by their standards. Pakistan cannot afford to be choosy, they have to settle for an average jet like the JF-17 to simply ensure their numbers are maintained. Can you imagine the IAF agreeing to buy a jet that is all-metal, 70s-design airframe, does not have full-FBW, has a Chinese designed radar and avionics, Russian engine based on 30-year old technology?

 

[Dazzler]

Can you imagine the IAF agreeing to buy a jet that is all-metal, 70s-design airframe, does not have full-FBW, has a Chinese designed radar and avionics, Russian engine based on 30-year old technology?

Yes they did, its is known as SU-30

 

[kurup]

Yes they did, its is known as SU-30

No .....MkI uses composites as well as FBW .

Also it does not uses Chinese designed radar and avionics .

 

[bloo]

Ignoring the rest of banter, coming to the red fonts....the JF-17 was designed to PAF specifications and requirements, the PLAAF are working on their own requirement version......going by your argument, until India inducts them, there has been no launch customer for the Rafale except the French themselves......what does that tell us. !! ??

True
However Rafale is a different story altogether, it is being considered by Qatar,Switzerland,Kuwait and possibly UAE.
Besides I made the point and i really don't see how u contradicted it? The Rafale is trusted enough to be inducted in the air force of the country which made it and I don't see JFT being done so, till then people will still believe what I just stated.
Yes and I would like to know what PLAAF is working on that fulfills their requirement for a JF-17 alternative?
After all they at some point have to replace J-7s and their other older planes, so JF-17 does fit the bill as per the "claimed" specifications of it.
So why not use it?
Now don't tell me that J-10 is the JF-17 alternate, coz its not.

 

[bloo]

LOL! ... so just by adding what you did to the project makes it indigenous let me just state the pointers of my orignal post that still remain unaffected even when considering your post.

Yes I believe so, if the chief of the DRDO says its 65% indigenous then who are you to contest him otherwise?
What are your credentials?
Who makes you the foremost expert on which planes are indigenous by what percentage?

LCA Tejas - Birth of Indian Fighter Aircraft

-Laser pods (litening) - by israel
-HMD - Israel
-Radar - Israel and Indian JV (not indigenous)
-Engine - USA (GE f404 and GE F414 in future)
-Weapons- Israeli / Russian (astara is not being integrated as yet, Derby is preferred over it as per latest news)

Yes I believe these do make Tejas 65% indigenous no matter what you say.
Of course there are more inputs in Tejas than what i have stated, its just the general people who are not privy to such information.
And yes I believe anything over 50% makes the fighter indigenous not completely but still indigenous.

HUD - CSIO, Chandigarh.
Majority of the airframe both metal and composites - Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI) & Tata's Advanced Materials Ltd (TAML)
Mission Computer - The hardware unit development was done by ASIEO, Bangalore and software design & development by ADA.
Control & Coding Unit (CCU) -The hardware is developed by RCI, Hyderabad and software by ADA
Display Processors (DP) of LRUs in the Tejas - ADE, Bangalore
Mission Preparation & Data Retrieval Unit (MPRU) - LRDE, Bangalore
Integrated Digital Avionics Suite (IDAS) - ADA
USMS Electronic Units - by DRDO subsidiaries
Open Architecture Computer (OAC)-ADA
Digital flight control computer (DFCC) of the Fly by Wire system - Aeronautical Development Establishment
Hydraulically retractable tricycle-type landing gear - HAL
EW suite (Mayavi) - Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE)
MAW - Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE)
RWR - Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE)
Multi Mode Radar-Jointly developed as an Indian – Israeli venture

And I would like to see a link that says that IAF prefers Derby over Astra, otherwise its just gas.
And I hope you have heard of Sudarshan laser-guided bomb, or is it not enough Indian for you?

Now lets take another route to things that cannot be changed
The project definition/ design assistance/testing

We heard it the 1st time you said it.

Notice the word "assistance", and not "completely designed by foreign vendors".
I hope that sticks.

Even today India imports parts for LCA worth millions from BAE

So?

Your own airchief is saying 60%, however its not that much of a surprise seeing the past

OH really?
The DRDO chief says its 65% and where do u think Naik got his info from?

However for your sake lets take into consideration what you just claimed.
So the link you earlier gave also stated this,

Naik said the upgraded aircraft would be in the same league as Saab’s Gripen NG fighter, one of the contenders for the Air Force’s $10 billion (Rs 45,000 crore) contract for 126 fighter jets.

Now we know that all you do is scour for dirt.
LCA Tejas flies into IAF fleet - Hindustan Times

This is back in 2001, so the way i see it, your not even at a point where DRDO or HAL's current statements can match the statements from the past ....

True.
And your link also says that quite a few thing are not indigenous, whereas it has been deemed indigenous as of today, making Tejas 65% indigenous.
The fact remains that you will always stick to the old links to satisfy ur monotony, but that'll change soon.
I can't imagine how your trolling life will be after Tejas is inducted.

FACT : JF-17 and LCA both are not indigenous ...

Tejas is still more Indian than JF-17 is Pakistani.
Please don't trivialize India's input by comparing it with Pakistan's involvement in JF-17.
If a Chinese member had berated me I would have accepted his rantings, however you are a completely different story.
What has Pakistan ever attempted on its own?

As for PLAAF, ofcourse they have not opted for JF-17 as of yet, where as PAF's airchief is on record saying that "JF-17 will find its place in the PLAAF" and the fact that the FC-1 is being continuously put through testing along side J-20, J-10B with new weapons on board on an entire new Prototype says something however its not much of a deal since

Yeah right
Keep your denial to yourself, till the Chinese actually say something JF-17 still has no place in PLAAF
Of course they are testing it, so does that mean they'll induct it?
I would like to see the link where the PAF's airchief says so.

IAF itself is today preferring flying coffins over LCA...
so enjoy your bubble bath while bragging to burst bubbles while the reality is the exact opposite of what your perceiving.

Oh really?
You mean like this.

PAF’s ” Flying Coffin ” Mirage aircraft crashes near Jhang, pilot killed

A Pakistan Air Force training plane crashed in Hasnainabad area of Shakir Kot in Jhang district on Thursday, killing the pilot.A PAF spokesman confirmed the incident, saying the plane was on a routine training mission when it crashed near Thal Firing Range. He said there was report about the martyrdom of pilot of the aircraft. However, the spokesperson did not state causes of the crash.The locals are reported to be saying that they saw the aircraft before it plunged to the ground. They saw fire was erupting from the jet before the crash.According to sources, rescue workers pulled a body from the wreckage of the aircraft.

PAF’s ” Flying Coffin ” Mirage aircraft crashes near Jhang, pilot killed | idrw.org

PAF aircraft crashes, pilot killed - PakTribune

Do please climb off that pedestal you have created for yourself, coz frankly speaking it is simply annoying.
Tejas is progressing albeit late.
There's a hindi proverb that goes like this "der aaye drust aaye", and ur claim makes no sense I hope you know that Tejas is replacing the Mig-21s.
Now it seem I don't really need to burst any bubble.
Your claims are defunct without me doing anything.
And regardless of whatever you say reality is, it changes as per situations not as per some fanboy's stigmas.

 

[Sinnerman108]

^^^

There's a hindi proverb that goes like this "der aaye drust aaye", and ur claim makes no sense I hope you know that Tejas is replacing the Mig-21s.

Is actually a persian proverb as are the words used in it persian.

But go on, keep telling us about how Indian every thing is !

 

[bloo]

^^^



Is actually a persian proverb as are the words used in it persian.

But go on, keep telling us about how Indian every thing is !

Wow does that even matter what the origins are as long as it is used in the right context.
I guess I am a criminal by Pakistani standards.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

itz not a pakistani railway locomotive too

yup its not a civil indian railway maintenance either, but a military aircraft's maintenance dude

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Are they? Any links that say so?



Name another country that can keep 50 year old aircrafts flying. It's sad that they have to be doing that, but they are doing a stellar job of it. Indian maintanance and jugaad have to be appreciated, and are nothing to be laughed at.

Your own mirages are crashing at a faster rate. I don't mean to troll by saying that, if I knew about other countries that keep ancient aircrafts in the air, I would mention them too to compare. I'm just saying that the maintainance guys are the last people to be faulted. The procurement system is a joke of course.

if u r using a 50 years old platform its u who should be blamed, not to be something proud of. You have got all the excess to the new tech n spares from even israel still this is the performance of yr maintenance staff. Dude its a state property for whom u have given millions of rupees in taxes n then this what they do with yr money either its yr command to blame for using a very old obsolete jet in 21 century n risking the lives of pilots who r to die only in the battlefield then to waste their lives n state property in the peace times especially when that can be avoided either by replacing them or by better maintenance.
So either way its u guys who r to be blamed, take it like a man!
Our mirage is just a 40 years old platform not 50 years one like yrs n the one who got crashed just days before is the crash of such jet in this year only i dont recall that mirage had crashed twice in this year including this one.But on the other hand the same thread in which im posting now it says that this is the second crash of such aircraft in this year as first one was in june/july so yr saying that our mirages crashing in faster rate is not right.
Also its PAF's aircraft who dont have much free access to the spares or latest tech like IAF do but still we r replacing them with jf-17 as fast as we can as we dont have much money for a rapid transformation. Still we have replaced them with our A-5s who were one of the contenders to be replaced by jf-17s in our AF ie Mirages,f-7s and A-5s(who r replaced).

any proof?? do u have IAF maintenance records?? or just usual trolling that give u good night's sleep.

yes i do this thread is enough proof.

 

[Windjammer]

The pompous drivel above aside, any details around Pakistani contributions towards the design though ?? I mean the ones not attributed to people in the know or uncles or friends in Pakistani forces ?? Or any components designed by Pakistan and inducted in the operational JFTs??

After all, as you pointed out in a PAK FA thread, a joint venture could simply be a financial arrangement

Even Auntie Wiki will enlighten you to your hearts content.

By 1989, Pakistan had abandoned Project Sabre II, a design study involving Grumman and China to re-design and upgrade the Chengdu F-7, due to economic sanctions by the U.S.[23] In the same year, China and Grumman started a new design study to develop the Super 7, another re-designed Chengdu F-7.[24] Grumman left the project when sanctions were placed on China following the political fallout from the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests.[25] After Grumman left the Chengdu Super 7, the Fighter China project was launched in 1991.[25]
Pakistan, meanwhile, required a new fighter to replace its fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5s, Chengdu F-7s, and Nanchang A-5s.[26] In 1995, Pakistan and China signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint design and development of a new fighter, and over the next few years, the two countries worked out the project details.[27]

As for PAK-FA.

Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan has projected a market for 1,000 fighter aircraft over the next four decades, which will be produced in a joint venture with India, 200 each for Russia and India and 600 for other countries.[93] He has also said that the Indian contribution would be in the form of joint work under the current agreement rather than as a joint venture

 

[Umair Nawaz]

there is huge difference between the Mig-21 bison and older Mig-21s. The Bison is a newer plane, better maintained. It is not like the older Mig-21s which are practically inoperational. Even the newer J-7s of ther PAF have seen six crashes in the last 5 years, and the odd crash of a Bison is not a crisis.

And in any case there is no comparison between JF-17 and LCA
1. the LCA is actually Indian design, R&D. Whether it is 65% or 55% indigenous is irrelevant because any system would involve foreign sub-components and systems. Would you call the ipad and iphone to be Chinese or taiwanese because they make the components?
What is important is that from abolute zero, we have created the design, infrastructure, project management knowhow, developed the entire component manufacturing chain.
In comparison, if pakistan were to try and design a jet, they would start from zero, the same level we were in 1985. The JF-17 should not be compared even to the Su-30, a better comparison would be assembly of Mig-21s by India in the 1970s. Yes that is how far behind they are.

2. You have to remember there is a huge gap in standards between IAF, a modern air force that has flown BVR-capable aircraft for almost 30 years, and PAF. India could LCA-mk1 today, but they would prefer to wait for the LCA mk-2 which is far superior to both LCA mk-1 and JF-17.
On the other hand the PAF had 70 F-16s, 180 J-7s which are inferior to even the bisons and 150 Mirage jets that are mostly over 40 year old.

The Mirage-3/5s are 15 years older than even the Mig-21 Bisons. Which means almost half of the PAF is obsolete even by their standards. Pakistan cannot afford to be choosy, they have to settle for an average jet like the JF-17 to simply ensure their numbers are maintained. Can you imagine the IAF agreeing to buy a jet that is all-metal, 70s-design airframe, does not have full-FBW, has a Chinese designed radar and avionics, Russian engine based on 30-year old technology?

Dude after reading all yr analysis all i can do is this n this n this
yr mig bisons who r basically an update of the basic mig 21 who is a 50 years old jet as by a indian guy janon in this forum is better then even the 4 gen n 4++ gen fighters like jf17 n f16.
Dude thank god u dont work for DRDO or HAL............

 

[Crypto]

Glad the pilots are safe, RIP the bison.

Al-thought last 3-4 pages seem to be a **** measuring contest!!!!!