INDIAN MIG 21 BISON CRASHES

[Icewolf]

Plain troll. You got banned a couple of weeks ago for trolling and now back to business eh?

Show me what in LCA makes it looks like Mirage with some pics, if you dare!

JF17 is only assembled in Kamra in semi-knock down kits recieved in IL-78MKPs as shown above!
I am prepared to show you Indian components in MKI with links and I challenge you to show
me pakistani-deisgned components in JF17 with adequate proof, and when I proof, I don't mean
speculations!

What do you have to say above Kamra's pathetic assembling rate? 5 years and just 36 jets!

First MKI was receieved 10 years ago and we have 200 jets now! You're assembling rate is not even
50% of our production rate. Since 2010, most of MKI is manufactured in India from scratch (including
raw materials), I have told you people this months ago, but still you fail to learn

Compare LCA to Mirage 2000... Almost everything is the same maybe some minor adjustments to DSI...

Well of course you will get fast production as Russia is getting aot of money

And our PAC Karma production is slow but it is picking up, compare that with Tejas which is still doing test flights, a flop project

 

[kurup]

Compare LCA to Mirage 2000... Almost everything is the same maybe some minor adjustments to DSI...

So why don't you prove it with pictures.

Well of course you will get fast production as Russia is getting aot of money

HAL is producing more MKI not Russia ........epic fail ......

And our PAC Karma production is slow but it is picking up, compare that with Tejas which is still doing test flights, a flop project

2000 test flights in INdia done by Indians .

JF-17 test flights and developement in China done by chinese ......Huge difference.

Still manufacturing of MKI by HAL is still higher than assembling of Knock -down kits of JF-17.

 

[Gessler]

Compare LCA to Mirage 2000... Almost everything is the same maybe some minor adjustments to DSI...

COMPARE THEM YOURSELF MAN !!!

Oh come on! LCA and Mirage-2000 hardly resemble each other! -



The only thing that bears similarity is the wing lay-out, but not so if you go into the details! -




Small changes like those^^ make big differences in aerodynamics which simply cannot be understood by fanboys like you! LCA is the product of Indian R&D and not anything else!

And btw I cant help launghing at this "except minor adjustments to DSI" hahaha...

DSI = Diverter-less Supersonic Inlet - something that neither LCA nor Mirage-2000 has!

Well of course you will get fast production as Russia is getting aot of money

Fast production is because our guys at HAL Nasik are more skilled and hardworking than your's at kamra!

And our PAC Karma production is slow but it is picking up, compare that with Tejas which is still doing test flights, a flop project

Tejas is indigenous project and India is developing a lot of things for it from scratch to help improve our indigenous aircraft-making skills for the better future. We have made 3 variants so far - IAF single-seat fighter, IAF twin-seat trainer and IN twin-seat trainer. IN's single-seat fighter variant is also coming.

You don't know how tough it is to design a carrier-borne fighter from scratch and make all materials by ourself, even China made copies out of Russian design Su-33 and with assistance from Ukraine after receiveing a full-fledged example of Su-33/T-10K from them.

You can't even talk of LCA unless you have your own self-designed fighter around.

As of production rate, 36 jets put into service in 5 years despite 2 countries working on the project is simply pathetic. At twice that time, India made 200 jets - and not to forget how technologically advanced and superior MKI is to JF-17 - also MKi is twin-engined plane than single-engine JF-17, India even makes the AL-31FP thrust-vectored engines and N011M BARS Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) radar in production lines located within India.

Can you make KLJ-7 radar and RD-93 engine within pakistan? Dont even try to tell me you alredya make KLJ-7 in-house because radar is no easy stuff and for people who can't even mould a metal piece into shape to make airframe can never dream of making sophisticated stuff like pulse-doppler radar.

 

[kurup]

COMPARE THEM YOURSELF MAN !!!

Oh come on! LCA and Mirage-2000 hardly resemble each other! -



The only thing that bears similarity is the wing lay-out, but not so if you go into the details! -




Small changes like those^^ make big differences in aerodynamics which simply cannot be understood by fanboys like you! LCA is the product of Indian R&D and not anything else!

And btw I cant help launghing at this "except minor adjustments to DSI" hahaha...

DSI = Diverter-less Supersonic Inlet - something that neither LCA nor Mirage-2000 has!





Fast production is because our guys at HAL Nasik are more skilled and hardworking than your's at kamra!



Tejas is indigenous project and India is developing a lot of things for it from scratch to help improve our indigenous aircraft-making skills for the better future. We have made 3 variants so far - IAF single-seat fighter, IAF twin-seat trainer and IN twin-seat trainer. IN's single-seat fighter variant is also coming.

You don't know how tough it is to design a carrier-borne fighter from scratch and make all materials by ourself, even China made copies out of Russian design Su-33 and with assistance from Ukraine after receiveing a full-fledged example of Su-33/T-10K from them.

You can't even talk of LCA unless you have your own self-designed fighter around.

As of production rate, 36 jets put into service in 5 years despite 2 countries working on the project is simply pathetic. At twice that time, India made 200 jets - and not to forget how technologically advanced and superior MKI is to JF-17 - also MKi is twin-engined plane than single-engine JF-17, India even makes the AL-31FP thrust-vectored engines and N011M BARS Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) radar in production lines located within India.

Can you make KLJ-7 radar and RD-93 engine within pakistan? Dont even try to tell me you alredya make KLJ-7 in-house because radar is no easy stuff and for people who can't even mould a metal piece into shape to make airframe can never dream of making sophisticated stuff like pulse-doppler radar.

You are taking too much time replying to a troll .

Simple one liner replies will be enough for his intellect.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Comparison of JFT and LCA is flawed, JFT is not developed by Pakistan whereas LCA is.. The path to LCA was fraught with lack of infra, sanctions to over ambitiousness..

If someone want to compare JF-17 with Indian plane then SU-30MKI is the perfect example, now INdia make Engine , Airframe and Avionics in India itself while PAK, cant make anything other then J-17 in Pak.

India's Contribution in SU-30MKI is more then what PAK has in JF-17 has

Basically all, you guys need is to view this, dont compare LCA to gripen, since i dont hear Sweds chest thumping about how gripen is completely indigenous, home grown and all that unlike our indian friends....

India’s ‘indigenous’ LCA comes with an American engine, on wing panels imported from Italy and avionics, navigational aids and radars from France, Israel and Sweden.

‘‘An aircraft has three major components. An engine, airframe and avionics. The GE-F 404 engine is American, most avionics like radars, INGPS, electronic warfare equipment, radar altometre, the fly-by-wire system, ground-mapping system and other pilot-support system are all imported from Israel, France and Sweden. Even the airframe is not entirely Indian. The composite wings have been imported from Italy. What is creditable is the integration of such complex systems,’’ sources in the IAF said.

While Air Chief Marshal A Y Tipnis urged IAF not to swing from acute scepticism to euphoria after the first flight early last month, his predecessor Air Chief Marshal S K Sareen said that the indigenous components in the LCA were few. ‘‘Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the fly-by-wire control, avionics and engine are not ours,’’ he said. ‘‘So who are we fooling by saying that 70 per cent of the LCA is indigenous,’’ he asks, while crediting the scientists with effective system integration.

Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings

A laboratory of the DRDO, the Aeronautical Development Establishment ( ADE), entered into a contract with BAE Systems Overseas Inc for the supply of 15 ship sets of IFCS and LRUs for the LCA at a total cost of more than $ 30 million, which works out to Rs.135 crore.

Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North, News - India Today

Suppliers:-
Amari Aerospace : metal & Alloys
Martin baker : ejection seats
Elbit systems : HUD, HMD
Laser pods : Israel /From rafael

ADA Tejas - program supplier guide

Talks between thetwo sides are under way about the Israelis providing electronic systems and know-how
The twosides are also believed to be discussing Israeli involvement in the flight-test programme.

1995 | 0626 | Flight Archive

China/India discuss LCA project

1994 | 1863 | Flight Archive

What actually happened between 1983 and 2000? First, let us take the promise of indigenous development. In 1986 an agreement was quietly signed with the United States that permitted DRDO to work with four US Air force laboratories. The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm

Project definition (PD) commenced in October 1987 and was completed in September I988. The consultant, chosen from four contenders, was Dassault Aviation, France. Engineers, connected with design and development of aircraft know how vital it is to get the 'definition' correct. From this flows detail de-sign, construction and eventually maintenance costs.

- Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd)

Lets skip every thing even today, the IAF claims that the complete home grown and total indigenous aircraft is only 60% indigenous......
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Bangalore/LCA-Tejas-flies-into-IAF-fleet/Article1-648453.aspx


So before every one starts to quote me from a thread from which i excused myself, better educate yourself from your own sources as nationality has blinded both sides...

JF-17 and LCA Tejas both are not Indigenous .... PERIOD!

Similarly we can call the Gripen not from Sweden.. The logic is absurd and reeks of hidinding behind the incompetence of your country..

The integration of all those components is what makes an ac fly, if only the components could fly on thier own without the airframe design, the control surface, the hundreds of systems and the FBW even BD would be making one.

The integration is done by India and the claim of indigenous is not wrong...

Thanks for the laugh, such incompetence that we are having batch I completely operational adding further claws to it in a poor economic state, while India having US, France, Israel and Russia at its back door is 17 years late already and hasn't put 1 fighter in active duty ....

remarkable competence of India i must say

You're the guy who goes around YT comparing apples with oranges aren't you?

A plane can be said to be Indian if Indian contribution in it exceeds 50%.

Most components are imported first and replaced with indigenous alternatives
after the know-how has been abosrbed. We used to buy composite structures
from Italy first, but now Tata Adavnced Materials Lab (TAML) supplies those
for LCA -Mk-1 - http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...c1a5_I2o2dJz-JRaw&sig2=LhYPtgJKQrbEq5Wm--BFtg

First we bought a British canopy-ejection system, later replaced it with an
indigenous version certified by Martin-Baker.

You can find more such examples but your sheer nationalism and desire
to keep down any Indian effort makes you blind to such facts.

LCA was flown in India, tested in India and built by Indians,
JF-17 was flown in China, tested in China, and built by Chinese, but
only assembled by Pakistanis. THATS the reality. PERIOD!

No sunny boy, the reality is you cant face the music, when you see your own air marshal level officials exposing the truth to you, however lets for one second assume LCA Tejas is totally and completely indigenous .....

DOES THAT CHANGE THE FACT IT STILL HAS ALOT OF TIME TO GO BEFORE ITS PUT INTO SERVICE EVEN AS PER OFFICIAL PLANS (2015)
while the incompetent Pakistanis would be by then improving and continuously building on their first experience and looking at advanced versions of the basic model ... even in the times where pakistan's economy is in its worst state ever

 

[SamantK]

Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings


Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North, News - India Today



ADA Tejas - program supplier guide


1995 | 0626 | Flight Archive


1994 | 1863 | Flight Archive

Similarly we can call the Gripen not from Sweden.. The logic is absurd and reeks of hidinding behind the incompetence of your country..

The integration of all those components is what makes an ac fly, if only the components could fly on thier own without the airframe design, the control surface, the hundreds of systems and the FBW even BD would be making one.

The integration is done by India and the claim of indigenous is not wrong...

 

[bloo]

Rumor said Rafale deal had been lagged behind due to IAF pernicious corruption scandal erupt out.

Rafale Deal In 3-4 Months, Says Indian Envoy In Paris


Livefist: Rafale Deal In 3-4 Months, Says Indian Envoy In Paris

@gessler

LOL!!

Even the appearance of Tejas looks the same as Mirage...

Believe me only 1-2% of Tejas is Indian, rest is European and Israeli!! Even India didnt do the paint job on that thing!. Everything is foreign in the Tejas.

"Tejas is 65% Indian right now. But Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister Dr.V K Saraswat has promised that by the time the aircraft gets Final Operational clearance, the indigenization will reach 75%."


LCA Tejas - Birth of Indian Fighter Aircraft

ENJOY

Returning to topic, regardless of the Mig-21 crashes, for a plane that has been operational for 53 years its quite an achievement for staying this long no matter what anyone says.

 

[Gessler]

Swadeshi LCA has US engine, Israeli, Swedish avionics, Italian wings


Parts of LCA Tejas go missing from London airport : North, News - India Today



ADA Tejas - program supplier guide


1995 | 0626 | Flight Archive


1994 | 1863 | Flight Archive


rediff.com: Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd) on the sad tale of the Light Combat Aircraft




Lets skip every thing even today, the IAF claims that the complete home grown and total indigenous aircraft is only 60% indigenous......
LCA Tejas flies into IAF fleet - Hindustan Times


So before every one starts to quote me from a thread from which i excused myself, better educate yourself from your own sources as nationality has blinded both sides...

JF-17 and LCA Tejas both are not Indigenous .... PERIOD!

You're the guy who goes around YT comparing apples with oranges aren't you?

A plane can be said to be Indian if Indian contribution in it exceeds 50%.

Most components are imported first and replaced with indigenous alternatives
after the know-how has been abosrbed. We used to buy composite structures
from Italy first, but now Tata Adavnced Materials Lab (TAML) supplies those
for LCA -Mk-1 - http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...c1a5_I2o2dJz-JRaw&sig2=LhYPtgJKQrbEq5Wm--BFtg

First we bought a British canopy-ejection system, later replaced it with an
indigenous version certified by Martin-Baker.

You can find more such examples but your sheer nationalism and desire
to keep down any Indian effort makes you blind to such facts.

LCA was flown in India, tested in India and built by Indians,
JF-17 was flown in China, tested in China, and built by Chinese, but
only assembled by Pakistanis. THATS the reality. PERIOD!

 

[Gessler]

Similarly we can call the Gripen not from Sweden.. The logic is absurd and reeks of hidinding behind the incompetence of your country..

The integration of all those components is what makes an ac fly, if only the components could fly on thier own without the airframe design, the control surface, the hundreds of systems and the FBW even BD would be making one.

The integration is done by India and the claim of indigenous is not wrong...

Thats right, the plane is indigenous the moment your contribution exceeds 50%.

Gripen has US engine (General Electric) Italian radar (Selex Galileo), and many components sourced from
BAE, Finmeccanica etc. But it never ceases to remain a Swedish fighter.

As of abdulbarijan, he's well completely blind to any fact that does not prove his worthless points
and hence thats what his replies are like. He probably thinks JF-17 is more than 50% pakistani.

Rafale Deal In 3-4 Months, Says Indian Envoy In Paris


Livefist: Rafale Deal In 3-4 Months, Says Indian Envoy In Paris



"Tejas is 65% Indian right now. But Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister Dr.V K Saraswat has promised that by the time the aircraft gets Final Operational clearance, the indigenization will reach 75%."


LCA Tejas - Birth of Indian Fighter Aircraft

ENJOY

Returning to topic, regardless of the Mig-21 crashes, for a plane that has been operational for 53 years its quite an achievement for staying this long no matter what anyone says.

14.9% more than whats needed to call LCA as Indian fighter. And it will become 24.9% more in the
coming years - maybe even more come Indian AESA radar on Mk-2.

 

[selvan33]

Compare LCA to Mirage 2000... Almost everything is the same maybe some minor adjustments to DSI...


DSI hahaha first learn what is DSI. and try to findwhther mirage 2000 or lca having DSI or not. Then come out with your point.

 

[Teeta]

every thing that starts with " J" seems JUNK in the context of CHina... series of J15 J17 JF 12, 13, 14, 17 and now J7 ( a , b , c, d, e .f . g ). first correct the series of your JUNK Fighters.

J-10 , J-20 , J-31 . . . . . .

I would've found this comment really retarded if this was coming from an American! I would tell him to never underestimate the rivals.

But since this comment is coming from a nation like India , I'd just enjoy the innocence of it.

 

[Gessler]

@ abdulbarijan

Stop editing the same post again and again and instead post new stuff in a new post.

Where you are now mulling around with JF-17 India has already completed 1 decade ago with Su-30MKI lolz
And now we're working on making MKI into Super Sukhoi better than Su-35BM, and where are you?

I would have been impressed if Pak can design and build atleast 40% of your fighter and rest imported would be
fine for you. I don't know how you can even compare JF-17 to LCA? Maybe its because you don'tgot
the balls to match up to MKI, eh, sweetheart?

5 years, 36 jets - JF-17
10 years, 200 jets - Su-30MKI

Building a foreign fighter in-house is easy.

 

[abdulbarijan]

@ abdulbarijan

Stop editing the same post again and again and instead post new stuff in a new post.

Where you are now mulling around with JF-17 India has already completed 1 decade ago with Su-30MKI lolz
And now we're working on making MKI into Super Sukhoi better than Su-35BM, and where are you?

I would have been impressed if Pak can design and build atleast 40% of your fighter and rest imported would be
fine for you. I don't know how you can even compare JF-17 to LCA? Maybe its because you don'tgot
the balls to match up to MKI, eh, sweetheart?

5 years, 36 jets - JF-17
10 years, 200 jets - Su-30MKI

Building a foreign fighter in-house is easy.

-First off , you have to correct your stats as of now Batch 1 is finished which constitutes of 50 JF-17's. The third squadron is expected to rise soon as pilot conversion is taking longer than expected.

-Secondly "indigenous" by definition means "Originating or occurring in a specific place" so your standards of 50 or 60% contradict the meaning of a word altogether.In other words your saying LCA tejas was first not indigenous, but suddenly now its become indigenous because indian input has exceeded from 50%.


-Thirdly I see, your Super Sukhois and all, lets not go there since we all know the great LCA tejas delays, the planned FGFA delay, and entire history or arjun and missiles which were "PLANNED" at one date and are delivered at others.

-Fourthly dont talk about something you are envious of, we all have witnessed the stand off of 2001-02 with pakistani missile tests eventually ending the stand off, the attitude of Indian media and officials after 26/11 with open threats of surgical strikes only to have their balls kidnapped by the IAF when PAF vowed a response.

and read my first response

JF-17 and LCA Tejas both are not Indigenous .... PERIOD!

Lastly when you say 5 years of JF-17, you mean to say 2007 when the SBP of JF-17 were delivered, so in 5 years lets take average we produced 10 aircrafts per year.. (according to u)

I dont know the exact amount of SU-30 MKI' in service of IAF but wiki says its around 160 as of JAN 2012 while SU-30 i guess was delivered in the late 90's to be precise 1997, so in other words more than 15 years have passed which makes the production rate (by ur own standards) nearly 10.6.

Now count in the fact that DRDO and HAL has more resources,more cash, more HR yet there is only a difference of 0.6 a/c per year if you take out the average ....

As for other indian members, please dont mind me for saying this because your own member is arguing that a plane is as good as in production the day the first aircrafts are delivered.

 

[Gessler]

-First off , you have to correct your stats as of now Batch 1 is finished which constitutes of 50 JF-17's. The third squadron is expected to rise soon as pilot conversion is taking longer than expected.

-Secondly "indigenous" by definition means "Originating or occurring in a specific place" so your standards of 50 or 60% contradict the meaning of a word altogether.In other words your saying LCA tejas was first not indigenous, but suddenly now its become indigenous because indian input has exceeded from 50%.


-Thirdly I see, your Super Sukhois and all, lets not go there since we all know the great LCA tejas delays, the planned FGFA delay, and entire history or arjun and missiles which were "PLANNED" at one date and are delivered at others.

-Fourthly dont talk about something you are envious of, we all have witnessed the stand off of 2001-02 with pakistani missile tests eventually ending the stand off, the attitude of Indian media and officials after 26/11 with open threats of surgical strikes only to have their balls kidnapped by the IAF when PAF vowed a response.

and read my first response

LCA fulfills the indigenous "definition" your talking of. It was conceptualised and originated in India.

But a machine, unlike a being,, is made of several smaller machines, all of which may not have come from the same source. Hence the percentage figures are used to gauge the level of indigenisation, in this case, LCA in 65% Indian as of now. Above 50% means the majority. and therefore majority of the LCA's components by percentage are Indian. This is enough to call LCA an indigenous jet - which does not mean there are no foreign components in the jet at all,

"Swedish" gripen has US engine and Italian radar
"Chinese" J-10 has Russian engine.

Delays are common in any project thats undertaken in these state-run PSUs. But still the products are being delievered better late than never - Arjun was delayed, sure, but when? 10 yrs ago? There already are 120+ Arjuns in service and Mk-2 Arjun is doing trials right now.

One delayed project does not mean every project is delayed. Look at LCH combat helo that was sanctioned in 2006 and flew in 2010 in just 4 years - lets see if PAC can do that.

Similarly one quick project does not mean every project is quick.

OP parakram was a hitting on IA's infarstcruture and planning. Its not advisable to go into the past looking for war references cuz I can go down into past as well as plough at your nation's 24x7 violated airspace, pathetic security of airfields, and no real "response" even after US SEALs came right over near Islamabad as if it was their own airspace and went off again unscathed.

If you use the words of media as proofs and conclusions of national policy, there can be no worse fool than you.

First you need to make up your mind about what is the definition of indigenous fighter? Does it mean every single component must be sourced locally? If so, then congrats cuz even China has not produced any indigenous jet as yet!

But if you really come to your senses and look - indigenous fighter means 2 things - indigenous components in the plane forming the majority (i.e. above 50%) is one, and the actual conceptualsing and managing the project for the fighter is the other, more important thing.

Both are duely fulfilled by India in the LCA project.

 

[abdulbarijan]

LCA fulfills the indigenous "definition" your talking of. It was conceptualised and originated in India.

But a machine, unlike a being,, is made of several smaller machines, all of which may not have come from the same source. Hence the percentage figures are used to gauge the level of indigenisation, in this case, LCA in 65% Indian as of now. Above 50% means the majority. and therefore majority of the LCA's components by percentage are Indian. This is enough to call LCA an indigenous jet - which does not mean there are no foreign components in the jet at all,

"Swedish" gripen has US engine and Italian radar
"Chinese" J-10 has Russian engine.

Delays are common in any project thats undertaken in these state-run PSUs. But still the products are being delievered better late than never - Arjun was delayed, sure, but when? 10 yrs ago? There already are 120+ Arjuns in service and Mk-2 Arjun is doing trials right now.

One delayed project does not mean every project is delayed. Look at LCH combat helo that was sanctioned in 2006 and flew in 2010 in just 4 years - lets see if PAC can do that.

Similarly one quick project does not mean every project is quick.

OP parakram was a hitting on IA's infarstcruture and planning. Its not advisable to go into the past looking for war references cuz I can go down into past as well as plough at your nation's 24x7 violated airspace, pathetic security of airfields, and no real "response" even after US SEALs came right over near Islamabad as if it was their own airspace and went off again unscathed.

If you use the words of media as proofs and conclusions of national policy, there can be no worse fool than you.

First you need to make up your mind about what is the definition of indigenous fighter? Does it mean every single component must be sourced locally? If so, then congrats cuz even China has not produced any indigenous jet as yet!

But if you really come to your senses and look - indigenous fighter means 2 things - indigenous components in the plane forming the majority (i.e. above 50%) is one, and the actual conceptualsing and managing the project for the fighter is the other, more important thing.

Both are duely fulfilled by India in the LCA project.

Actually its you who needs to make your mind of what indigenous means cuz a retired admiral and a retired air chief marshall of India dont believe your concept of indigenous as i have posted before and will dare to show to you again ...

Air Chief Marshal S K Sareen said that the indigenous components in the LCA were few. ‘‘Only 30 per cent of the airframe is Indian, the fly-by-wire control, avionics and engine are not ours,’’ he said. ‘‘So who are we fooling by saying that 70 per cent of the LCA is indigenous,’’

What actually happened between 1983 and 2000? First, let us take the promise of indigenous development. In 1986 an agreement was quietly signed with the United States that permitted DRDO to work with four US Air force laboratories. The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.

-Admiral J G nadkarni

As i can see, you and i wont agree to any thing so I'll excuse myself out of here since you are not even willing to accept your sources as "good enough"