India Army has over 1193 T-90 tanks. Another 464 by March 2025

[Smarana Mitra]

T90 and T72 are not Indian tanks though. They are Russian. Anyone can get ToT. If Indian industry is so impressive why does it lag behind countries that are 10x smaller than India (namely all of Europe, not to mention AK has been in production since the 90s.)
And what of all the other points I bring up? You can make 3000 tanks if you want. What’s the use if they can’t even go through the base armor of AK?

Actually, India developed the critical items like engine, turret, fire controls indigenously. The TOT was only for design. Technology is fully Indian. India ahs achieved almost complete indigenisation of the tanks. Only the latest upgrades like night vision etc are imported on interim basis for trials and testing. Even they will be indigenised once India finds the right configuration

 

[Akatosh]

So you bring up manufactured goods in a discussion about the capability of Indian tanks.

You are the one who brought up Indian industry.
As for defense industry we now export $2 billion a year.

 

[vishwambhar]

Wrong.
Indian T-90s have more than 70% indigeneous content.

Heavy Vehicles Factory has orders to produce battle tanks till 2035: official

The Chennai-based Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), the manufacturer of battle tanks under the Indian Ordnance Factories, is expecting a 60 per cent growth in turnover during this year and has visibility to orders till 2035, said a senior official.The HVF, which is struggling with availability of...

wap.business-standard.com

Whatever @iLION12345_1 is saying about how ancient systems are on our T90 compared to AK and VT4 is it true?

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Whatever @iLION12345_1 is saying about how ancient systems are on our T90 compared to AK and VT4 is it true?

The core of a tank is just mechanical and there is hardly any difference between a 1990s tank and modern tank in that regards. However, in terms of electronics, India is upgrading it gradually. Currently India is importing some of the upgrades as interim measure. It will be indigenised soon

 

[iLION12345_1]

Actually, India developed the critical items like engine, turret, fire controls indigenously. The TOT was only for design. Technology is fully Indian. India ahs achieved almost complete indigenisation of the tanks. Only the latest upgrades like night vision etc are imported on interim basis for trials and testing. Even they will be indigenised once India finds the right configuration

That is false, ToT is always only for design, it literally means you get a foreign design and produce it locally. it’s not possible to change the basic systems of a T90 without Russian permission. India did not “develop” any of the tech in T90. Russia did, India only assembles them. The engine, FCS and so on in Indian T90 is the same as in Russian models. The thermal imagers in them are French Catherine FC. Similarly Pakistan did not develop most the technology used in the original Al-Khalid, But overtime most of the AK and now AK-1 use actual Pakistani designed systems. Something india cannot do on a T90 since it’s not their own tank.

India did however develop such systems for the Arjun, so credit where it is due, the Arjun MK-1A Is actually technologically pretty good. But it’s gun, ammunition and armor beyond obsolete.

 

[vishwambhar]

The core of a tank is just mechanical and there is hardly any difference between a 1990s tank and modern tank in that regards. However, in terms of electronics, India is upgrading it gradually. Currently India is importing some of the upgrades as interim measure. It will be indigenised soon

But does it mean that right now Pakistan tanks have edge over T90?

 

[Surya 1]

India is developing the trophy like system for the protection of the tank. It will provide extra protection in addition to the existing protections. Battlefield management system develoled by India is now a standard feature of these tanks.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

British army after seeing the nagorno karabah war has decided to get rid of its tanks and focus on drone. Pakistan should also not buy any more tanks and invest in drones and loitering munitions. That's the way forward. Cheap effective and easy to make

In indo pak case tank matters sue to terrain, huge numbers and conventional mindset of both armed forces.
With an air cover, drones won't change much here.

 

[Tornado23]

But does it mean that right now Pakistan tanks have edge over T90?

Yes. We do.

 

[iLION12345_1]

The core of a tank is just mechanical and there is hardly any difference between a 1990s tank and modern tank in that regards. However, in terms of electronics, India is upgrading it gradually. Currently India is importing some of the upgrades as interim measure. It will be indigenised soon

Whatever @iLION12345_1 is saying about how ancient systems are on our T90 compared to AK and VT4 is it true?

The base armor of the T90 is pretty good yes, I’d say it even exceeds the VT-4 in some regards, if that’s what you want to refer to as the “core”, but credit for that goes to the Russians. Everything else in a tank needs to be upgraded with time, even the most basic of elements.

Take a look at Russian T90 tanks and then Indian T90 tanks. Russian ones have 3rd Gen ERA, Indian ones have second gen, with no plans to upgrade it anytime soon (considering the new ones being produced still have 2nd Gen K-5 ERA). Pakistani tanks use FY4, Nozh and Aorak 2 (all three are third Gen ERA). The last Pakistani tanks to use K-5 2nd Gen ERA were T80UDs and even those have Nozh now.

Russian tanks use third Gen thermals, So do AKs and VT-4s, Pakistan stopped putting Catherine FC in new tanks in 2013. The new Indian T90S being produced is still getting Catherine FC (which is a second Gen thermal. AK had this same thermal when it started production in 2000s, Indian T90S has it in 2021.)

VT-4 is superior to T90S in every single metric, armor, penetration, mobility, Technology (it is currently the only tank in South Asia to have a CITV system, which is a Huge upgrade. Not to mention it has a functioning hard kill APS. CITV and APS are the two most important upgrades for modern tanks, it’s the only tank in south Asia to have both.) it has 1500HP modular engine compared to older style 1000HP in T90S. It has 8 digital panels, 4 for commander, 2 for gunner, 2 for driver, compared to 2 or 3 in Indian T90. It is a generation ahead in Thermals, ERA and Ammunition, and most of this applies to Al-Khalid-1 too. Not just the VT-4, as the AK-1 and VT-4 are rather closely matched in physical metrics.

The Latest Chinese and Russian APFSDS rounds have penetration numbers in excess of 800MM/0 Deg at 2KM. Pakistan uses Naiza and BTA-4, with 600 and 650MM/0 Deg at 2KM. India started buying BM42 Mango APFSDS in 2019 (https://zeenews.india.com/india/ind...mango-shells-for-t-72-t-90-tanks-2138461.html) which came into service in the Soviet Union in the Mid 80s (has 460MM/0 Deg at 2KM) which would mean a lot of Indian tanks still use older ammo. Pakistan was producing its own APFSDS-T in 2003 with penetration numbers similar to that.
Keep in mind only half of Indian T72 fleet is modernized and is able to use this already ancient ammo. The other half will have to use even older ammo that likely cannot even penetrate a Type 69s turret.

India has number advantages yes, but on average the Pakistani tank fleet is far more modernized. Al-Zarrar fires the same ammunition and has the same ERA as Al-Khalid. It has second Gen thermals as well. That means even Al-zarrar has superior fire-power and similar optics than Indian T90S.

India is developing the trophy like system for the protection of the tank. It will provide extra protection in addition to the existing protections. Battlefield management system develoled by India is now a standard feature of these tanks.

Al-Khalid has IBMS as standard since 2000s. It was developed in Pakistan. VT-4 has had Trophy-like hard kill APS since 2017, it also has IBMS.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Cont: There is a difference between indigenous products and license produced products. Indian T90 and T72 tanks have very very few Indian indigenous parts in them. All of what India puts in them is license produced. The engines, the Catherine thermals, the kontakt 5 ERA, the ammo. None of it was designed by India.

by that metric Pakistan also produces the thermal sights for its tanks locally, but it’s license production just like the Indian ones (the thermal sights Indian T90S uses have been under license production in Pakistan for over 15 years now.) But the difference is that while India still license produces Foreign Ammo, foreign ERA, foreign FCS etc, Pakistan switched to locally designed (hence indigenous) ammo, armor, FCS (minus thermals) etc quite a while ago. In AK, AK-1, AZ and Type 85. This is something india is now doing with the Arjun too, but you can see how far behind the Arjun project is. India however cannot do the same to its T90 without Russian permission.

This is all in no means to simply bash India, there are definitely many places where Indian industry is ahead of Pakistan, India has more money and more resources sure, but the Indian defense industry has been rather poorly managed. It has a lot more potential than it puts out. If india wanted to and tried to, it could outpace whatever Pakistan can muster in a matter of years, but at the current trajectory Pakistan is not only keep up, it’s overtaking, simply because of the political influence in the defense industry in India, something that needs to be looked at.

 

[vishwambhar]

We need seriously upgrade our tank force especially after Pakistan introduction to VT4 in the subcontinent....

 

[Trango Towers]

In indo pak case tank matters sue to terrain, huge numbers and conventional mindset of both armed forces.
With an air cover, drones won't change much here.

Looooool what are you on about?

 

[Smarana Mitra]

That is false, ToT is always only for design, it literally means you get a foreign design and produce it locally. it’s not possible to change the basic systems of a T90 without Russian permission. India did not “develop” any of the tech in T90. Russia did, India only assembles them. The engine, FCS and so on in Indian T90 is the same as in Russian models. The thermal imagers in them are French Catherine FC. Similarly Pakistan did not develop most the technology used in the original Al-Khalid, But overtime most of the AK and now AK-1 use actual Pakistani designed systems. Something india cannot do on a T90 since it’s not their own tank.

India did however develop such systems for the Arjun, so credit where it is due, the Arjun MK-1A Is actually technologically pretty good. But it’s gun, ammunition and armor beyond obsolete.

Not true. TOT means technology like the exact procedure to alloy the metals, the exact machinery to create engines, exact chemical composition and method to produce them for ERA etc. In this case, however, India got only design while technology like engine, fire control was developed by DRDO.

Here is the proof that engine for T90 & T72 was developed by India:

‘Made in India’ tank engines handed over to the Army

We can produce our own products: Defence Minister

www.thehindu.com

Earlier, India used imported engine whereas from 2018, India has developed its own engine and hence is self sufficient. Similarly, India used French thermals earlier but is developing its own thermals now, using the technology it developed for NAG ATGM & MPATGM.

But does it mean that right now Pakistan tanks have edge over T90?

No, Both Al Khalid & T90 are similar. There is no edge. However, Pakistani Al Khalid has edge over T72.

The base armor of the T90 is pretty good yes, I’d say it even exceeds the VT-4 in some regards, if that’s what you want to refer to as the “core”, but credit for that goes to the Russians. Everything else in a tank needs to be upgraded with time, even the most basic of elements.

Take a look at Russian T90 tanks and then Indian T90 tanks. Russian ones have 3rd Gen ERA, Indian ones have second gen, with no plans to upgrade it anytime soon (considering the new ones being produced still have 2nd Gen K-5 ERA). Pakistani tanks use FY4, Nozh and Aorak 2 (all three are third Gen ERA). The last Pakistani tanks to use K-5 2nd Gen ERA were T80UDs and even those have Nozh now.

Russian tanks use third Gen thermals, So do AKs and VT-4s, Pakistan stopped putting Catherine FC in new tanks in 2013. The new Indian T90S being produced is still getting Catherine FC (which is a second Gen thermal. AK had this same thermal when it started production in 2000s, Indian T90S has it in 2021.)

VT-4 is superior to T90S in every single metric, armor, penetration, mobility, Technology (it is currently the only tank in South Asia to have a CITV system, which is a Huge upgrade. Not to mention it has a functioning hard kill APS. CITV and APS are the two most important upgrades for modern tanks, it’s the only tank in south Asia to have both.) it has 1500HP modular engine compared to older style 1000HP in T90S. It has 8 digital panels, 4 for commander, 2 for gunner, 2 for driver, compared to 2 or 3 in Indian T90. It is a generation ahead in Thermals, ERA and Ammunition, and most of this applies to Al-Khalid-1 too. Not just the VT-4, as the AK-1 and VT-4 are rather closely matched in physical metrics.

The Latest Chinese and Russian APFSDS rounds have penetration numbers in excess of 800MM/0 Deg at 2KM. Pakistan uses Naiza and BTA-4, with 600 and 650MM/0 Deg at 2KM. India started buying BM42 Mango APFSDS in 2019 (https://zeenews.india.com/india/ind...mango-shells-for-t-72-t-90-tanks-2138461.html) which came into service in the Soviet Union in the Mid 80s (has 460MM/0 Deg at 2KM) which would mean a lot of Indian tanks still use older ammo. Pakistan was producing its own APFSDS-T in 2003 with penetration numbers similar to that.
Keep in mind only half of Indian T72 fleet is modernized and is able to use this already ancient ammo. The other half will have to use even older ammo that likely cannot even penetrate a Type 69s turret.

India has number advantages yes, but on average the Pakistani tank fleet is far more modernized. Al-Zarrar fires the same ammunition and has the same ERA as Al-Khalid. It has second Gen thermals as well. That means even Al-zarrar has superior fire-power and similar optics than Indian T90S.

Al-Khalid has IBMS as standard since 2000s. It was developed in Pakistan. VT-4 has had Trophy-like hard kill APS since 2017, it also has IBMS.

Indian tanks have 2nd gen ERA because it is indigenous. Russia refused to give TOT for its ERA and hence India used the ERA which it developed in DRDO. Pakistan uses imported ERA and hence though it is better, it can't be mass manufactured and has to be imported everytime.

India has purchased MANGO rounds but also has developed indigenous APFSDS which can penetrate 700mm armour and displayed in several weapon exhibitions. It is inferior to the 800mm penetrators of Russia but it is much cheaper to make and better than MANGO round.

Indian T90 is focusing on full indigenisation with sufficient modernisation instead of going for imported modern solutions. Also, tanks are low priority for India as any modern ammunition can easily bust tanks. Tanks are only a 2nd line of offense after air and naval offence. Tanks only are for leading ground invasion which means it does not need cutting edge upgrades. So, India does not spend on 3rd gen ERA or other fancy items. Nevertheless, Indian tanks stand at the same level as AlKhalids for all practical purposes. T72, however, is not as good but it is not the frontline tank and hence does not matter

 

[vishwambhar]

Though 1657 is decent number for country the size of India needs actually 2500 of T90 level tanks to protect its long borders..... We shouldn't forget T72 though very good today in this decade maybe in next decade will need replacement.....