How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[DesiGuy]

Su-27 was for F-15 and Mig-29 for F-16 ..

i am noob on all this...but a quick question: can't you just have 1 jet fighter say su 30-MKI (backbone of IAF) take out all these jet fighters?

why develop Su-27 for F-15 and Mig-29 for F-16?

 

[sancho]

JHMCS would give upper hand to F-16 in WVR with MIG-29 no matter how MIG-29 tries to out manuver F-16

Apart from the fact that the Migs had this capability before and now get the Topsight helmet with the upgrade, you have to keep in mind that the helmet is only one part and an agile missile with a high FoV seeker is the other part to have such an advantage. That exactly is the problem, since PAF only has Aim 9M and not the 9X, that was developed to counter the advantages of the R73. That's why most other F16 operators also have added Python, Assram or IRIS-T missiles, while PAF is limited to the 9M. That leaves the Mig not only with a higher maneuverability, but also with the better SR missile and a clear advantage with HMS in dogfights.

 

[Bratva]

Apart from the fact that the Migs had this capability before and now get the Topsight helmet with the upgrade, you have to keep in mind that the helmet is only one part and an agile missile with a high FoV seeker is the other part to have such an advantage. That exactly is the problem, since PAF only has Aim 9M and not the 9X, that was developed to counter the advantages of the R73. That's why most other F16 operators also have added Python, Assram or IRIS-T missiles, while PAF is limited to the 9M. That leaves the Mig not only with a higher maneuverability, but also with the better SR missile and a clear advantage with HMS in dogfights.

Does topsight provide 90 degree FoV?

 

[MilSpec]

@sandy_3126

Mere bhai , MIG-29 has lost EVERY air engagement against the 'teen series'. Mind you Saddam had AWACs too. Mig-29 is yet to shoot down its first teen series.

Mig-35 is just another Russian junk with large size, TVC and flashy touch screens. They are good in aerodynamics, but have pathetic mission processing, ECM, situational awareness capabilities. Not to forget that the Russian A2A missiles have not all been that successful. The weapons are inferior so are the tactics.

For WVR combat, F-16s are equipped with JHMCS, worlds fastest mission processors, highly advance sensors which build a great situational awareness picture for the pilot.

Its AIM-9M/X have look down shoot down capability with very high angles of off bore sighting.

Aerodynamically, F-16s have relaxstability aerodynamics and they don't bleed as much energy as the Migs in 'sustained ACM'.

F-16 seats are placed at an angle that reduce G loads. Added with a bubble canopy the pilots say that they feel as if they have grown wings...they feel as part of the F-16 with its all round visibility.

F-16s have nailed almost every air craft in its Generation in simulated combat....it all depends on the 'pilot'.

I know mig 29's performance, but Mig29's have never had a casualty in RuAF or IAF, If you want to compare saddaam's forces, then I dont have much to say, they were using mig25's as interceptors. With barrage of dead missions they had little to capitalize with their Mig29, When airforce starts burrying thier a/c's in sand it's not generally a good sign....

For WVR, f16 and F15's were whipped by east german Mig 29's,

Aerodynamically although f16 may not bleed as much energy, but energy bleed wont be a problem with Mig29 with twin afterburning engines, and hyper maneuverability... Mig 29 was an evolutionary design breakthorugh fro the soviets as displayed multiple times, it has outmatched f16 in training engagements. TopOwl-F with all aspect R73 provides similar Wvr capabilites as JHCMS wit Aim 9...

Mig35ovt MKI, would have featured Zhuk Aesa radar, 3D TVC, with RVV MD and RVV SD and now the vympel Aesa K77 version, apart from that open arch MIL-STD-1553 bus would have allowed Python5 - the most advanced operational AAM on the market today... I have seen Mig29OVT at bangalore, and things it in air had other pilots dropping their jaws in disbelief...

As I said, this is my personal opinion based on my understanding of air combat, aerodynamic performance and munition performance. MKI'sed mig35 would have run circles around any flying aircraft today in wvr engagement, sensor fusion and netcentric warfare, not that much.....

Enjoy this video:

 

[sancho]

Does topsight provide 90 degree FoV?

I guess you mean the missile seeker, R73 is given with 35 to 40° afaik, only later generation missiles like AIM 9X, MICA, IRIS-T or Python V had higher capabilities.
@Abingdonboy made a nice post about the R73 trials of LCA, with the Dash HMS:

LCA Tejas at Iron Fist 2013 | Page 3

 

[Kompromat]

@sancho

Singapore is not in S.Asia Mr Prof of Geography.

Israeli avionics they have in those vipers are not 'better' than the LM supplied avionics. They just provide an 'open architecture' for Non US origin weapons integration. They are not from planet Zulu as Indians assume.

They have electronics equipment embedded on the nose cone, we use it as a pod. Thats the difference.

 

[Kompromat]

@sandy_3126

Maybe because RuAF and IAF Migs are yet to engage with the F-16 and AMRAAMS.

Mig had two engines because Russians had a huge country to patrol and didn't trust their engines that much.

Just because top owl can display data on the helmet display doesn't mean it can outmatch F-16s integrated sensor suite, avionics, core mission processing capability. JHMCS is just a helmet, what matters is 'how' the data is displayed according to its fusioned sensors.

AIM-9 series outmatches any Russian missile. Their capabilities are overly hyped.

TVC has no 'practical application'. You pull off a cobra, the next thing you'll see is bellets being drilled into your jet by the Viper because you have bled most of your energy and have little air speed. It would be like the duck sitting on aunty pinky's balcony.

In ACM what matters is 'sustained ACM turns' not 'air show stunts' to drop people's jaws.

Mere bhai Python5 is not 'the best' WVRAAM on the market. Its a tie between AIM-9X and IRIST.

Histroy says that its the Migs that have seen F-16s running circles around them. Your personal opinion can't change the history.

This is the age of BVR combat. And again if you are being chased by an AIM-120C5/7 AMRAAM, 9/10 chances are that your jet is about to turn into hot ash.

This is proven by 'actual combat' record, rather than simulated exercises where they have set ROEs for practicing a specific aspect of fighting and the purpose is not always to 'win'.

@MiG-21

Your fairly tales are nothig but internet gossip. Show me the list of kills Russian Missiles have scored in 'actual combat', then we'll compare it to the Sidewinder and AMRAAMs 'combat record'....truth will be established and all fairy tales would be put to rest.

 

[sancho]

They have electronics equipment embedded on the nose cone, we use it as a pod. Thats the difference.

It's not only about the Israeli origin (which seems to be your only point btw), but the additional capability other Block 52s have compared to PAFs once. The fact that there are other F16 operators with modern US RWR, MAWS, or even IRST capability, let alone advanced WVR /BVR or SEAD missiles that PAFs fighters didn't got from the US can't be simply ignored, only by the fact that they are Block 52s. PAFs Block 52 are far away from being highly advanced and compared to the EW and sensor capabilities that MKI, or Mig 29UPG already have (M2K5 and even LCA MK1 will have), they are even further behind. In fact, with the Block 2 upgrade JF 17 should be more capable in that regard as well, with a propper 4th gen EWS, different EW sensors and so on. Not to mention that it already has the far more capable weapon package (including SEAD, deep and stand off strike weapons). That again shows the limitations of PAFs F16s, so creating a myth about being the most advanced fighter is just funny, but not credible at all.

 

[Kompromat]

@sancho

We do have AGM-88 HARMs, please update your list.

 

[proka89]

I see that some of you are mentioning bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. I dont have intention to argue with you guys which one of these two fighter planes is better, but comparing those two planes under such circumstances is clearly unfair.

First of all Serbian Migs were over 12 years old in 1999. They were lacking maintenance and spare parts, because we were under sanctions for a long time. Our Migs were supposed to go through overhaul two years before the NATO bombing, but they didn't.

Also Serbia had a severe shortage of fuel and spare parts because of the sanctions. So our pilots were untrained and unprepared when war came, and after all Serbian Mig 29 are a Mig 29s.

So on one side you have 14 Mig 29 s that were usually sent to battle missions in pairs of two, or one alone, against a bunch of F-16C/D Block 40/42 or 50/52 supported by AWACS and other planes, ground radars etc. On one side you have Serbian pilot who didn't spent more than 30 hours in air per year in the last few years, and on the other side you have US pilot with around 200 hours in the air per year.... Not to mention that Serbian planes were under heavy jamming. All our pilots reported radar and other electronic components failures during their missions. All our airports were constantly bombed....

 

[MilSpec]

@sandy_3126

Maybe because RuAF and IAF Migs are yet to engage with the F-16 and AMRAAMS.

Mig had two engines because Russians had a huge country to patrol and didn't trust their engines that much.

Good joke, I dont think chinese and pakistanis are that dumb to stick the same engines (rd33, al31) on their SINGLE ENGINE frontline fighter....

AIM-9 series outmatches any Russian missile. Their capabilities are overly hyped.

It's the other way around

TVC has no 'practical application'. You pull off a cobra, the next thing you'll see is bellets being drilled into your jet by the Viper because you have bled most of your energy and have little air speed. It would be like the duck sitting on aunty pinky's balcony.

i wonder why f22's has tvc if it's that worthless... and why are those dummies at EADS planning for a tvc EFT....

In ACM what matters is 'sustained ACM turns' not 'air show stunts' to drop people's jaws.

Mere bhai Python5 is not 'the best' WVRAAM on the market. Its a tie between AIM-9X and IRIST.

I never said Python IV/V derby is the best sraam, its the best operation BVR AAM. whoch would have been available to hypothetical IAF Mig35's if required.

This is the age of BVR combat. And again if you are being chased by an AIM-120C5/7 AMRAAM, 9/10 chances are that your jet is about to turn into hot ash.

Add Rvv ae, sd pd, r27's to that list too

This is proven by 'actual combat' record, rather than simulated exercises where they have set ROEs for practicing a specific aspect of fighting and the purpose is not always to 'win'.

Comparing apples to apples would help, my contention began with equally adept air force engagement...

Your fairly tales are nothig but internet gossip. Show me the list of kills Russian Missiles have scored in 'actual combat', then we'll compare it to the Sidewinder and AMRAAMs 'combat record'....truth will be established and all fairy tales would be put to rest.

As I said, this is my opinion. Sidewinder and amraam, fielded have mostly been used by USAF which has seen most of the combat against enemies like iraq, libya, yugoslavia, the nations on brink of collapse. last massive use of russain missile was in vietnam and the results are pretty clear, 17 flying aces most of them firing K13 Missiles.....The question remains from engineering perspective is if russain ordinance, engines and designs were so inferior, why would China, poised to be the next power extensively use derivative designs in seeker, propulsion for their own projects....[/quote]

@sancho

We do have AGM-88 HARMs, please update your list.

Any sources, Sipri doesn't have any such transfer record....

 

[ptldM3]

@sandy_3126

.

Mig-35 is just another Russian junk with large size, TVC and flashy touch screens. They are good in aerodynamics, but have pathetic mission processing, ECM, situational awareness capabilities. Not to forget that the Russian A2A missiles have not all been that successful. The weapons are inferior so are the tactics.

where is proof or even comparisons between the Mig-35 mission processor, ECM and situational awareness. you got none, you are just blabbing nonsense with no factual support.

By the way the Mig-35 has an ECM that is either the same or similar to the one used in the typhoon

Explain how situational awareness and mission prossesiong on an F-16 with 1980s and early 1990s computers is better then an Mig-35 with up to date computers. Computers every year are evolving, what was considered top off the line 2 years ago is considered slow today. My laptop has faster processing then an entire aircraft equipped with 1980s computers. Even early Mig-29s had the ability to land without the pilots impute, this is something that only modern drones have been able to achieve yet Mig-29s have had the automation and computing power to do this for decades. Migs have also has exceptional situational awareness with passive sensors not to mention integration of a helmet mounted targeting system that the F-16 adapted 20 years later.

The fact that the Mig-29 uses AESA compared to decades old PESA puts it on a whole nother level, which in itself puts it on a different level in terms of electronic counter measures considering it's constantly hopping frequencies and has amuch more precise data processing capabilities.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

where is proof or even comparisons between the Mig-35 mission processor, ECM and situational awareness. you got none, you are just blabbing nonsense with no factual support.

By the way the Mig-35 has an ECM that is either the same or similar to the one used in the typhoon

Explain how situational awareness and mission prossesiong on an F-16 with 1980s and early 1990s computers is better then an Mig-35 with up to date computers. Computers every year are evolving, what was considered top off the line 2 years ago is considered slow today. My laptop has faster processing then an entire aircraft equipped with 1980s computers. Even early Mig-29s had the ability to land without the pilots impute, this is something that only modern drones have been able to achieve yet Mig-29s have had the automation and computing power to do this for decades. Migs have also has exceptional situational awareness with passive sensors not to mention integration of a helmet mounted targeting system that the F-16 adapted 20 years later.

The fact that the Mig-29 uses AESA compared to decades old PESA puts it on a whole nother level, which in itself puts it on a different level in terms of electronic counter measures considering it's constantly hopping frequencies and has amuch more precise data processing capabilities.

Says volumes abt ur knowledge......... Also u cant compare russian tech with american tech.... they are like atleast 20 years ahead of you guys...


And im being modest.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

An f16 in pak air force does not have the awacs technology and real time advantages of both the USA air force and the Israeli air force.

Also the training combat experience awacs and supporting fighters of the Indian airforce make the mig29smt x 66 and. The 48 mig29k more than match for pak f16...

Just because USA f16 took out three poorly trained iraqi mig29 that where outnumbered fifty to one with no gcc or Sam support totally blind..

Indians mig29 is a different proposal

Dont know what shit you are hooked on...

 

[ptldM3]

Says volumes abt ur knowledge......... Also u cant compare russian tech with american tech.... they are like atleast 20 years ahead of you guys...


And im being modest.

The mig 29 had a HMS 20 years before the F-16 did. The R-73, when first inspected, was better then anything the west had and Mig was the first to have operational fighters with PESA.

Not to mention hundreds of US/European aircraft have been shutdown by Migs so what does that say? Especially when much of the time the Mig pilots were under trained and outnumbered. And sorry but PAF F-16 that are using 1980s and 1990s computers are not 20 years ahead of a modern Mig-29s just like my laptop probably has faster data processing then some older F-16s.