History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Wholegrain]

I am southern Chinese and I view our culture as similar to northern Chinese and we prefer to associate with them, not with Vietnamese. Most of us trace our paternal ancestors to northern China. Some of us trace them to Persia and Arabia. Almost none of us share paternal ancestors with Vietnamese.

CHINESE-IRANIAN RELATIONS vii. SE. China ? Encyclopaedia Iranica

But according to Rechoice and EastSea, all of these people are lying and brainwashed. They will say these Arabs and Persians are actually Baiyue and claimed they were Arab and Persian because the evil northern Han told them to. Since they live in southern China, according to them, they MUST be brainwashed baiyue.

 

[Viet]

@Viet

do you feel it's a lose that vietnamese give up learning Chinese characters? as the vietnam historical records, cultural relics are all writen in chinese？ maybe latin Latin alphabets help you reduce the illiteracy rate much ,but simuteniously it feels like you cut yourself from your history.

do you have a feeling that you are in a foreign country when you visit an ancient house on which words writen are all chinese characters you cannot read?

well, I have mixed feelings...there are two sides of the coin. Depending on how the relationship develops, good or bad, Mandarin may come back as the first foreign language in Vietnam replacing English in school.

Chinese language gains growing popularity among Vietnamese students - Xinhua | English.news.cn

 

[EastSea]

He is sort of semi mythical? Most history books put Zhao Tuo the first founder of NanYue, as the one who sinizied north vietnam.

You can read our history book 大越史記全書 online.

The period of Vietnam's history, controlled by Zhao Tuo is stated in 大越史記全書 in separate paragraph as "Ngoại Kỷ" or "foreigner's period",

(I don't know Han characters as I typed " 外 己 ' is correct or not).

 

[Wholegrain]

In ancient tines, when Chinese moved into Vietnam, they merged with the people there and did not form their own communities. The Tran and Ho dynasties were founded by Chinese whose ancestors moved to Vietnam in the Medieval times.

After the Ming dynasty, distinctive communities of Chinese began to form.

There are two groups of Chinese in Vietnam.

The Minh Huong are descended from Chinese Ming refugees who fled China after the Ming dynasty fell. They married Vietnamese wives and settled in villages in southern Vietnam. The Nguyen rulers in Vietnam moved alot of those Chinese refugees and their wives to southern Vietnam and the Mekong Delta, on former Cham and Khmer land to make sure it stayed in their hands and didn't go back to the Cham or Cambodia. They mostly speak Vietnamese now. Alot of them served in the Nguyen court

Vietnam and the Chinese Model

The other group of Chinese are merchants who moved to Vietnam during the Qing and Republic of China era. They brought their wives with them from China so their descendants are pure Chinese. They were all merchants and alot of them were expelled from Vietnam in 1979, including jhungary's mother. jhungary claimed his mother was pure Chinese so I can only assume she belonged to this group.

 

[Viet]

Vietnam has similar per capita GDP with India,but we all know that vietnamnese living in a much better level on average.Vietnam ,from big cities to small villages,looks much reacher clearer.whats the secret? why don't share some with your so called dear friend Indians?we hope you don't just use them as a tool

You know India is our friend. China, too.

As per recent statistic of the government, there are about 125,000 people in Vietnam suffering food shortage (I will look again for the source and post later). Those poor households receive cheap or free foods from the government. Considering Vietnam population of 91 millions, that is not much.

The secret? Vietnam produces foods in huge amount, that we can feed half of SE Asia.


http://www.vir.com.vn/news/en/property/syrena-vietnam-launches-coral-bay-townhouse-block-2929a.html

 

[Fattyacids]

You can read our history book 大越史記全書 online.

The period of Vietnam's history, controlled by Zhao Tuo is stated in 大越史記全書 in separate paragraph as "Ngoại Kỷ" or "foreigner's period",

(I don't know Han characters as I typed " 外 己 ' is correct or not).

I read some of your historians considered NanYue as Vietnam's.

The second character is wrong.

So Vietnamese completely ditch Han Character?

 

[djsjs]

You know India is our friend. China, too.
As per recent statistic of the government, there are about 125,000 people in Vietnam suffering food shortage (I will look again for the source and post later). Those poor households receive cheap or free foods from the government. Considering Vietnam population of 91 millions, that is not much.
The secret? Vietnam produces foods in huge amount, that we can feed half of SE Asia.
Syrena Vietnam launches Coral Bay Townhouse Block 29,29A | Read the Latest Real Estate and Property News including Vietnam

both Vietnam and India have super fertile land,but Vietnam solved food problem well,India doesnt.
and more than food,vietnamnese living in better houses,vietnam cities are much better planned and clearer.everything is better,,,there must be some secret,haha......tell us please

 

[Wholegrain]

I read some of your historians considered NanYue as Vietnam's.

The second character is wrong.

So Vietnamese completely ditch Han Character?

There are two different character systems in Vietnam.

Classical Chinese (wenyan) was the official language of Vietnam, like it was in China and Korea. Official documents were written in it.

Chu Nom is different. Its using characters to write the Vietnamese language instead of Classical Chinese. Entirely new characters were created by the Vietnamese to write native Vietnamese words. (Like how Japanese use Kana to write native Japanese words) Quoc Ngu replaced Chu Num for writing the Vietnamese language.

Koreans had a similar system called Idu, which had unique characters used to express native Korean words. They replaced it with Hangul.

 

[Fattyacids]

There are two different character systems in Vietnam.

Classical Chinese (wenyan) was the official language of Vietnam, like it was in China and Korea. Official documents were written in it.

Chu Nom is different. Its using characters to write the Vietnamese language instead of Classical Chinese. Entirely new characters were created by the Vietnamese to write native Vietnamese words. (Like how Japanese use Kana to write native Japanese words) Quoc Ngu replaced Chu Num for writing the Vietnamese language.

Koreans had a similar system called Idu, which had unique characters used to express native Korean words. They replaced it with Hangul.

Are you an academic of some sort at graduate level? You are very well versed in historical matters

 

[Wholegrain]

Are you an academic of some sort at graduate level? You are very well versed in historical matters

I don't specialize in East Asian history, its just something I know well. And you know because Vietnamese has to invent their own characters that their language is not related to Cantonese. Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic languages and share more grammar and vocabulary than with Vietnamese. In a simple sentence in Cantonese and Mandarin, maybe two characters will look different and adjective-noun word order is the same, in Vietnamese half the characters will be different and the noun-adjective word order is reversed. The different characters in Mandarin and Cantonese will often just stem from different root words in Old Chinese or Classical Chinese but in Vietnamese the new characters are made out of thin air.

 

[EastSea]

The difference is that southern Han hate Vietnamese while northern Han don't.

Sputhern Han are descended from northern Han who moved south and married the native Baiyue women, this is why the southern Han y Chromosome (inherited from the father) is extremely close to northern Han Y chromosome, but the mtdna (inherited from the mother) and autosomal DNA is different.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7006/full/nature02878.html



European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

The Y chromosome haplogroup and subclade among different groups of East Asians.

Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty.

Many northern Chinese fled to southern China in ancient times

Their is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" 有唐山公無唐山媽 because Han men from mainland would marry Aboriginal Taiwanese women.

During the first Jin dynasty and the Tang dynasty alot of northern Han fled to southern China.

Portrait of a Community

Portrait of a Community

In the Shadow of the Han

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google knygos

Northern Han moved to southern China, married native women and their descendants became southern Hans. Many of these southern Han founded Kingdoms like Nanyue and Southern Han. Both of these Southern Han (Cantonese) Kingdoms were enemies of the Vietnamese and fought against them. Nanyue crushed Au Lac and Southern Han fought to retain control of Vietnam. Most armies from China which fought against Vietnam were made out of southern Han and not northerners.

However, many Vietnamese are under strange delusions - they think that Cantonese and other Southern Han have no Han blood and are entirely sinicized Baiyue, that they must be long lost brothers and were brainwashed by the evil northern Han. @EastSea @Rechoice

Southern Han look down on Vietnamese and Cantonese do not want to be associated with them at all. They are angry that Vietnam keeps claiming they are their brothers and claiming Nanyue is Vietnamese. But northern Han don't know any of these things. They don't know what Baiyue is and aren't interested in this stupid stuff which is why they don't hate Vietnamese as much as southern Han.

We have pureblooded Baiyue descendants who were not mixed. They are the natives of southern China.

Tanka people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fuzhou Tanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zhuang people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Li people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I (myself) never say that a Vietnamese and southern Chinese people (or Yue people, Cantonese, Min yue, wo yue ...etc) are brothers, they are No-Hans from Yangtze only. We don't shared same bloodline with them, we are Jingzu. You, southern Hans (?) look down at us, we look down at you in same way. Southern Han is not shared 100 % bloodline with true Han in Yangtze river area.

In the past we fought against our enemy, they should be Hans, southern Hans or any...if they invaded in to Vietnam.

 

[Fattyacids]

I don't specialize in East Asian history, its just something I know well. And you know because Vietnamese has to invent their own characters that their language is not related to Cantonese. Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic languages and share more grammar and vocabulary than with Vietnamese. In a simple sentence in Cantonese and Mandarin, maybe two characters will look different and adjective-noun word order is the same, in Vietnamese half the characters will be different and the noun-adjective word order is reversed. The different characters in Mandarin and Cantonese will often just stem from different root words in Old Chinese or Classical Chinese but in Vietnamese the new characters are made out of thin air.

Can you point me to some article regarding about Classical Chinese and how is it different from Mandarin, Wu, Min-nan or Cantonese? I'm a poor student of my history.

 

[StarCraft_ZT]

well, I have mixed feelings...there are two sides of the coin. Depending on how the relationship develops, good or bad, Mandarin may come back as the first foreign language in Vietnam replacing English in school.

Chinese language gains growing popularity among Vietnamese students - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Yesterday I went to a Vietnamese restaurant, but the menu is written in Chinese, English and Vietnamese. I almost talk to waitress with Chinese when I suddenly remember they are Vietnamese.

 

[StarCraft_ZT]

you are right...Hanoier and Shanghai for example

Viet girl

Chinese girl

They look like each other to some extent.

But you are wrong, Zhang Hanyun is from Sichuan, not Shanghai.

You should listen to French instead, one of most beautiful languages of the world.

Really? You really think so? French sounds terrible. Spanish sounds good.

 

[ephone]

women in vietnam are in such an lower position than women in China.

I think you need correct that lie.

We are a family.

The Viets and Southern Han´s are much closer in terms of look than to the Northern Han´s. Nevertherless we all share the same cultures and custom. Many Viets consider the Southern Hans (Cantonese) as their true brothers and sisters as we both lived a country called NamViet in ancient times.

One of the major differences between the Viets and the Han´s lies the position of women in the society. Traditionally Viets women have more say and right than their sisters in China.

You forgot to mentioned vietnam was later still part of China protectorate until the late 19th Century's french invasion.

Actually the modern Vietnam history began with the battle of bach dang river in 938 AD. In that year the Vietnamese general Ngo Quyen defeated the invading forces of the Southern Han and put an end to centuries of Chinese imperial domination in Vietnam.


Battle of B