HISTORY OF MALABAR :DISCUSSIONS.

[Joe Shearer]

Are u mad???..thats only a reply to your post..check my earlier post..
I said Nairs,Syrian Christians,Muslim all used to wear big earrings..


Actually there are two forms of Malayalam..
1.Thani Malayalam(it has minimum Sanskrit words and looks more like Tamil)...
2.Sanskritized present one...

The breakaway from old south Dravidian happened before the period of the 8th century.

 

[SrNair]

I'm not a racist. but, it is unfortunate that some claims Kerala and Tamilnadu are the same people. I think, it is wrong. similar language - yes, cultural similarities - yes, do exist. but, having seen the pathetic tribal life styles of Madurai region, I can not imagine Kerala is similar to them.

Perhaps that is due to the development of our state.We dont know kerala's situation 60 years ago.

 

[SrNair]

The language spoken was identical until relatively recently.

Well I have some doubt about it .Malayalam nearer to the TN border are influenced by Tamil perhaps have more Tamil vocabulary.But language used in coastal areas and mid travancore evolved in such a way like zero Tamil presence.
At least minimum thousand years separation.

 

[takeiteasy]

Heard about this claim? Malayalam lipi is derived from Tulu lipi:

A script called Tulu is used in Tulunadu for centuries. All Tulu classics discovered recently are in Tulu script, and som in other scripts. This Tulu script was being used by Brahmins. Till recently they were using it for writing Mantras, for accounts etc. Since hundreds of years, Tulu Brahmins were going to Kerala Temples for priestly work (called ‘Shanti’ Services). They took the Tulu writing with them to Kerala thus they carried the Tulu script to Kerala. Malayalam had not developed a script of its own by that time. The upper castes and classes of Keralites started close contacts with the Tulu Brahmins and hence they adopted the Tulu script, and later adopted it to what is now called the Malayalam script. (This has been proved in detail by Vidwan P V Puninchathaya in ‘Tulu -Nadu-Nudi’).
http://shivallibrahmins.com/tulu-language/tulu-language-and-script/

 

[kalanirnay]

I think its time to address the Mallu fascination for Gold ............and to see its history.

Nair girls in 1914

Syrian christian women

Muslim women

Christian women

 

[kalanirnay]

Heard about this claim? Malayalam lipi is derived from Tulu lipi:

A script called Tulu is used in Tulunadu for centuries. All Tulu classics discovered recently are in Tulu script, and som in other scripts. This Tulu script was being used by Brahmins. Till recently they were using it for writing Mantras, for accounts etc. Since hundreds of years, Tulu Brahmins were going to Kerala Temples for priestly work (called ‘Shanti’ Services). They took the Tulu writing with them to Kerala thus they carried the Tulu script to Kerala. Malayalam had not developed a script of its own by that time. The upper castes and classes of Keralites started close contacts with the Tulu Brahmins and hence they adopted the Tulu script, and later adopted it to what is now called the Malayalam script. (This has been proved in detail by Vidwan P V Puninchathaya in ‘Tulu -Nadu-Nudi’).
Tulu Language and Script | Shivalli Brahmins

Its a fact that Brahmins from Mangalore and Tuluoland go to kerala for their religious training especially in Astrology.

But you are mistaken about tulu influencing Malayalam.

Both Tulu and malayalam lipi has evolved out of the Grantha script which was used to write sanskrit test in palm leaves. The Grantha script itself is an evolution from the Brahmi srcipt.

This might help,

 

[abjktu]

Well I have some doubt about it .Malayalam nearer to the TN border are influenced by Tamil perhaps have more Tamil vocabulary.But language used in coastal areas and mid travancore evolved in such a way like zero Tamil presence.
At least minimum thousand years separation.

Not entirely..Malayalam still preserves many dravida elements..Though many you may not found in the regular usuage..
eg-(sowdharyam-Azhagu),(jeevan-uyir),(mekham-mukil),(lokam-ulakam),(vedhana-novu),(aakasham-vinnu/maanam/vaanam),(niyamam-chattam),(shareeram-mai),(bhaasha-mozhi)...etc etc...
i think thats why a Malayali could easily learn Tamil within a short span..

Every thing happens for a reason. What can be the reason for enlarging your ear lobes ?

To grab attention ?
To improve hearing ?
To show tolerance to pain and courage ?

My great grandmother had huge looping earlobes and I was told that the larger the gold you can stuff the hole with, the greater your status symbol.

So if displaying the gold you have was the purpose, it could very well have gone from the nobility to the tribals, like most things in most societies.

Anyway all this speculation. Either could be just as true.

Nobility to the tribals??..
Big earrings are very common among the tribal groups all over the world..

 

[abjktu]

Heard about this claim? Malayalam lipi is derived from Tulu lipi:

A script called Tulu is used in Tulunadu for centuries. All Tulu classics discovered recently are in Tulu script, and som in other scripts. This Tulu script was being used by Brahmins. Till recently they were using it for writing Mantras, for accounts etc. Since hundreds of years, Tulu Brahmins were going to Kerala Temples for priestly work (called ‘Shanti’ Services). They took the Tulu writing with them to Kerala thus they carried the Tulu script to Kerala. Malayalam had not developed a script of its own by that time. The upper castes and classes of Keralites started close contacts with the Tulu Brahmins and hence they adopted the Tulu script, and later adopted it to what is now called the Malayalam script. (This has been proved in detail by Vidwan P V Puninchathaya in ‘Tulu -Nadu-Nudi’).
Tulu Language and Script | Shivalli Brahmins

...................... The Portuguese actually printed their first books in Lingua Malabar Tamul around 1560s using Portuguese writing system.Alternating lines of Lingua Malabar Tamul (Malayalam-Tamil or Malayanma) with the original Portuguese literature was found in
Cadilha printed at Lisbon in the
1560s.In the same era the main art
form of Keralas Christians was
Chavittu Natakam in Tamil composed
by Chinnathambi Annavi.
Chinnathambi Annavi was a Tamil
migrated from the southern parts of
Kerala who resided at Mattanchery
fort and worshipped the Koonan
Kurisu there. He wrote poems to
praise Sesu Muthappan and Muthi
(Mary). Even today the word Muthi
(eg Koratti Muthi) is used to denote
Mary in Kerala.Chavittu Natakam or
tromping dance in which the dancers
gyrated tromping the floor. Chavittu
Natakam was a modification of
Therukoothu a Tamil art form. Even
today many Chavittu Natakams
written in 1500s written in Tamil
mixed with Malayalam survive.
Karalman (Charlemagne) and Gee
Varghese story are famous among
them. In the 16th century the
intermixture of Tamils with
Portuguese had created a mixed tribe called Mestizos. Mestizos had three sub groups called Castizo(mostly European), Mestizo (Mixed equally) and Topazi (mostly Indian). The alternate lines of Portuguese and Tamil in early Lingua Malabar Tamul might have benefitted the Mestizos and Tamils of Kerala in that era. Only after the Dutch came the Tamils started adopting the Tulu-Nepalese
language and culture of their rulers.
Flos Sanctorum written and translated into Lingua Malabar Tamul or Malayalam-Tamil in 1578. The language and structure of the
language is closer to Malayalam than
modern Tamil. Portuguese printed
Catholic books in Kerala at their
printing presses situated at Ambalakkadu and Melur near
Angamaly, Kollam and Thalassery. At
Tamilnadu they had the printing press at Punnakkayal. In the 16th century Tamil Nadu had hardly few thousand Christians while Srilanka had few thousand more.At Tuticorin Paravas had been converted to Christianity by Joao Da Cruz a converted Nair from Calicuts Samuthiri Kingdom at 1532 AD.Francis Xavier arrived Kottar and
Tuticorin around 1548 AD.It is highly
unlikely that in the 16th century the
Tamilnadus Christians were literate
enough to read all these liturgical
books written in Malabar language ie
Malayalam-Tamil.The Christiani
Vanakkam, and Thambiran Vanakkam all are written in Malayanma or Malayalam Tamil the native language of Kerala, a Dialect of Tamil. In Kerala these Malayanma books were printed in the places where the the Malayali Christians were thickly populated ie Angamaly Quilon and Thalassery which were Portuguese strongholds in that Era. Portuguese era ended in 1660s. The Dutch continued to print books in Malayalam-Tamil from Ambazhakkad near Puthenvelikkara
near Angamaly as late as 1760s.The
Malayalam-Tamil remained as the
language of worship till 1820s for the
Malayali Christians. Copenhagen
museum still houses a copy of Tamil
Flos Sanctoram printed at Angamaly.
Though Portuguese established a
printing press at Vypeen fort to print
Syriac books it is highly unlikely
anybody except some priests ever
read it.
There were two languages in that era
in Kerala. The General population
used the Malayanma or Malayalam-
Tamil but the ruling classes of
Nambudiris and Nairs used a different form of languages which because of their Northern origins at Ahichatra at the Uttranchal-Nepal had a mixture of Sanskrit of Aryans, and Prakrit of Nagas.This Tulu Grantha-Bhasa of the Nambudiris intrigued the Dutch-German Missionaris such as Arnos Padiri in 1699 who resided at Melur.The German and Dutch Missionaries
who arrived in the after 1700s
discovered that the German language had closely resembled Sanskrit. This made the German-Dutch missionaries more interested in Nambudiri language, Grantha Bhasa.

... Arnos Padiri wrote books in that
language then called Grantha Bhasa
(Modern Malayalam).He wrote a book called Grantha Bhasayude Vyagaranam (Arnos Padiri did not call it Malayalam because in that era the word Malayalam meant Malayalam- Tamil written with Tamil Script). When the Dutch and British started promoting the Grantha Bhasa or Grantha Malayalam (Sanskritised Malayalam written with Tulu Script) as a means of suppressing and erasing their earlier history.
Malayanma was forcibly removed
from history by the British in the
1810 when they forced Tulu writing
system as the writing system of
Malayalam and promoted the Grantha (Sanskritised) Malayalam used by Nambudiris which was written withTulu script. Tulu script had been brought to Kerala by Nambudiris and Nairs who established a Matriarchal kingdom in Kerala in the fourteenth century from Tulunadu. Benjamin Bailey a Missionary made the first Tulu-Malayalam script types when he
was staying at Basil Mission at
Mangalore 1819.The British established Kottayam Seminary to
teach the Grantha Malayalam which
was made the official language of
Kerala. Herman Gundert a German
Missionary made the Grantha
Malayalam popular in Kerala who
started the first Grantha Malayalam
news paper called Rajya Samacharam.The British promotion of Grantha Malayalam written with Tulu script led to the decline of
Malayanma which used to be written
with Tamil Script or Malayanma Script (Vattezuthu or Kolezhuthu). The Malabar(Malayalam)-Tamil dictionary composed by Grahamshaw in 1796 was nothing but English-Tamil dictionary. British suppression of Malayanma led to the disappearance of all the Tamil-Malayanma books of Kerala written prior to 1800s. Only books written by Nambudiris in the 17th century with Sanskrit 80 percent with 20 percent Dravidian Malayalam survive.In otherwords British supported the language of Nagas and Aryans who had migrated from Ahichatram in Uttarkhand/Nepal through Tulunadu while destroying all
indigenous Dravidian Tamil Malayalam books.
Thus Flos Sanctorum and Kiristiyaani
Vanakkam were written for the Tamils of Kerala in Malayanma.The word Kiristayani itself a Malayalam word.
Thamburan or Thambiran signifies
Gods and Kings in Malayalam even
today.Many thousand books were
printed in the 16th century.
Tamilnadu did not have that many
Christians in that era who were
literate to read these books but Kerala had.......

 

[Infinity]

I heard of this part, and there is a place near Chengannur where pandavas believed to have stayed, and there is a rock which is named after them.... I been there

There is a Place Called Pandanadu near Chengannur.............Its believed that Pandavas stayed in that village for some time

 

[nair]

There is a Place Called Pandanadu near Chengannur.............Its believed that Pandavas stayed in that village for some time

There is a pandavan para, in chengannur.....

 

[kalanirnay]

Not entirely..Malayalam still preserves many dravida elements..Though many you may not found in the regular usuage..
eg-(sowdharyam-Azhagu),(jeevan-uyir),(mekham-mukil),(lokam-ulakam),(vedhana-novu),(aakasham-vinnu/maanam/vaanam),(niyamam-chattam),(shareeram-mai),(bhaasha-mozhi)...etc etc...
i think thats why a Malayali could easily learn Tamil within a short span..

I don't understand what you are trying to say. ALL your examples show that malayalam is more similar to sanskrit than tamil.

Malayalam - Sanskrit - English
Sowdharyam - saundarya - beauty
mekham - Megha - cloud
vedhana - vedana - pain
aakasham - aakash - sky
lokam - loka - world
niyamam - niyama - law
Shareeram - shareer - body
bhaasha - bhasha - language

Nobility to the tribals??..
Big earrings are very common among the tribal groups all over the world..

Body piercing and mutilation is as old as humanity.

Usual trend in society is that the Rich and the Famous do something, wear something. Then the poor try to imitate them. That is why you see people imitating the dress style of slaman khan or Rajnikanth etch..

 

[abjktu]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. ALL your examples show that malayalam is more similar to sanskrit than tamil.

Malayalam - Sanskrit - English
Sowdharyam - saundarya - beauty
mekham - Megha - cloud
vedhana - vedana - pain
aakasham - aakash - sky
lokam - loka - world
niyamam - niyama - law
Shareeram - shareer - body
bhaasha - bhasha - language



Body piercing and mutilation is as old as humanity.

Usual trend in society is that the Rich and the Famous do something, wear something. Then the poor try to imitate them. That is why you see people imitating the dress style of slaman khan or Rajnikanth etch..

it was a reply to Mr.Sreekumar..
I meant even still they are lot of Tamil words(original dravida words) preserved in Malayalam,though using sparsely in the Modern spoken dialects....
yes,Modern Malayalam has Sanskrit influence immensely..who said otherwise??
Even in Kannada/Tamil.For a word,it has both Sanskrit derivative and the original dravida one (in most case)..
for eg...In Kannada 'uddesha'means ' Aim'but the original one is 'Guri"(Dravida )..though both are used in spoken dialect...

I don't understand what you are trying to say. ALL your examples show that malayalam is more similar to sanskrit than tamil.

Malayalam - Sanskrit - English
Sowdharyam - saundarya - beauty
mekham - Megha - cloud
vedhana - vedana - pain
aakasham - aakash - sky
lokam - loka - world
niyamam - niyama - law
Shareeram - shareer - body
bhaasha - bhasha - language



Body piercing and mutilation is as old as humanity.

Usual trend in society is that the Rich and the Famous do something, wear something. Then the poor try to imitate them. That is why you see people imitating the dress style of slaman khan or Rajnikanth etch..

yes,Body piercing is as OLD as HUMANITY.....There was no Nair, Syrian Christian caste or languages,creed at the starting stages of humanity..All were TRIBALS..

 

[kalanirnay]

it was a reply to Mr.Sreekumar..
I meant even still they are lot of Tamil words(original dravida words) preserved in Malayalam,though using sparsely in the Modern spoken dialects....
yes,Modern Malayalam has Sanskrit influence immensely..who said otherwise??
Even in Kannada/Tamil.For a word,it has both Sanskrit derivative and the original dravida one (in most case)..
for eg...In Kannada 'uddesha'means ' Aim'but the original one is 'Guri"(Dravida )..though both are used in spoken dialect...

80% of malayalam words are sanskrit words. You will be hard pressed to find a malayalam word that does not have a direct line to sanskrit.

BTW the kannada/tamil word 'Guri' comes from the dravida world 'Kuri' which means 'target'. Its colloquial use and sometimes substitute the world aim with looking at the target, which is why the world aim which is nokkam in tamil, which means 'target looked at', lakshya in telugu and uddesha in kannada.

Tamil for aim Nokkam, becomes malayalam for tip i.e. Nokka

yes,Body piercing is as OLD as HUMANITY.....There was no Nair, Syrian Christian caste or languages,creed at the starting stages of humanity..All were TRIBALS..

Before being Tribals, we were apes too. That does not mean anything. We are talking about history of non tribal societies here.

 

[rockstarIN]

I think its time to address the Mallu fascination for Gold ............and to see its history.

Nair girls in 1914

Syrian christian women

Muslim women

Christian women

Christian pathiri photograph collection form Chennai, fully biased as I said earlier.

 

[SrNair]

Christian pathiri photograph collection form Chennai, fully biased as I said earlier.

You got some point.White pathiris dont like good side of our society and they dont took pictures of rich and middle class.
That is why they targeted lower class.We dont know whether this pictures are genuine.
Brown to fair people can easily identified even if it is black and white pictures.Those pictures might be after 1850 at any case.Comparing with that pictures majority of Nair people today we can see is quite different.I dont think that 150 years can change that much