Has Iran abandoned its ally Syria...

[MarkusS]

I see it as positive that Iran joins us. Iran can profit much from closer ties with the EU and NATO in general.

 

[jamahir]

so u r in libyan intel. service

no... i am just a humble socialist activist... but with some good abilities and ambition.

u see , in your dark world , laughing at gaddafi = laughing at the death of 200,000+ libyans and 150,000+ syrians and two million iraqis

so, are you are supporter of the socialist systems in libyan jamahiriya, syria and saddam's iraq?? please do look at the screen-shot of my reply to @peacefan from this discussion post ( It Was Putin's Missile! | Page 4 )...

u know ppl (and when i say ppl i also mean libiyans ) do NOT view gaddafi as a saint but a lunatic?

you speak the same language as white house, bbc and al jazeera... because in truth, iran since 1979 has been a great asset to nato... khomenei, your mullah leader, sitting comfortably in france after having being kicked-out of iraq by the iraqi baath movement... you are spitting on your own face.

now, i had been warned-off before by one mod for supposedly insulting the "founder of a nation" by saying some of the above... but i ask the mods, do they want to promote the nato version of history??

Mandela and Gaddafi: the myth of the Saint and the Mad Dog - English pravda.ru

I see it as positive that Iran joins us. Iran can profit much from closer ties with the EU and NATO in general.

iran government joined you in 1979, through its so-called "islamic revolution"... go ask any former member of the german red army, or former communists from east germany.

 

[haman10]

socialist activist... but with some good abilities and ambition.

my friend , your view of the world is so naive .

in every country on the planet , when the nation is on the verge of a revolution , there are ppl who oppose it and u cannot find a single one (revolution) in which the regime ruling that nation did not have public support .

so yes , gaddafi had public support , to some extant cause some ppl did not benefit from the revolution .

and yes iran's shah had a little public support , namely from the elite cause the revolution would have overthrown them as it did .

abt gaddafi , ppl were just freaking exhausted :

Leadership
Muammar Gaddafi was the head of the Free Officers, a group of Arab nationalists that deposed King Idris I in 1969 in a 'bloodless coup.[51] He abolished the Libyan Constitution of 1951, considering it a neocolonial document. From 1969 until 1975 standards of living, life expectancy and literacy grew rapidly. In 1975 he published his manifesto The Green Book. He officially stepped down from power in 1977, and subsequently claimed to be merely a "symbolic figurehead" until 2011, with the Libyan government up until then also denying that he held any power.[52][53]

Under Gaddafi, Libya was theoretically a decentralized, direct democracy[54] state run according to the philosophy of Gaddafi's The Green Book, with Gaddafi retaining a ceremonial position. Libya was officially run by a system of people's committees which served as local governments for the country's subdivisions, an indirectly elected General People's Congressas the legislature, and the General People's Committee, led by a Secretary-General, as the executive branch. According toFreedom House, however, these structures were often manipulated to ensure the dominance of Gaddafi, who reportedly continued to dominate all aspects of government.[55]

WikiLeaks' disclosure of confidential US diplomatic cables revealed US diplomats there speaking of Gaddafi's "mastery of tactical maneuvering".[56] While placing relatives and loyal members of his tribe in central military and government positions, he skillfully marginalized supporters and rivals, thus maintaining a delicate balance of powers, stability and economic developments. This extended even to his own sons, as he repeatedly changed affections to avoid the rise of a clear successor and rival.[56]

Both Gaddafi and the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, however, officially denied that he held any power, but said that he was merely a symbolic figurehead.[52][53] While he was popularly seen as a demagogue in the West, Gaddafi always portrayed himself as a statesman-philosopher.[57]

According to several Western media sources, Gaddafi feared a military coup against his government and deliberately kept Libya's military relatively weak. The Libyan Army consisted of about 50,000 personnel. Its most powerful units were four crack brigades of highly equipped and trained soldiers, composed of members of Gaddafi's tribe or members of other tribes loyal to him. One, the Khamis Brigade, was led by his son Khamis. Local militias and Revolutionary Committees across the country were also kept well-armed. By contrast, regular military units were poorly armed and trained, and were armed with largely outdated military equipment.[58][59][60]

Development and corruption
By the end of Gaddafi's 42 years rule, Libya's population had a per capita income of $14,000, though a third was estimated to still live below the poverty line.[61] A broadly secular society was imposed.[62] Child marriage was banned, and women enjoyed equality of equal pay for equal work, equal rights in divorce and access to higher education rose from 8% in 1966 to 43% in 1996.[63] Homelessness was insignificant, and illiteracy had been largely eliminated, with literacy rates estimated at 88%, and average life expectancy rose from 51/54 in 1969 to 74/77.[64][65] Much of the state's income came from its oil production, which soared in the 1970s. In the 1980s, a large portion of it was spent on arms purchases, and on sponsoring militant groups and independence movements around the world.[66][67]

Petroleum revenues contributed up to 58% of Libya's GDP.[68] Libya's GDP per capita (PPP), human development index, and literacy rate were better than in Egypt and Tunisia, whose Arab Spring revolutions preceded the outbreak of protests in Libya.[69] Libya's corruption perception index in 2010 was 2.2, ranking 146th out of 178 countries, worse than that of Egypt (ranked 98th) and Tunisia (ranked 59th).[70] One paper speculated that such a situation created a broader contrast between good education, high demand for democracy, and the government's practices (perceived corruption, political system, supply of democracy).[69]

An estimated 13% of Libyan citizens were unemployed.[71] More than 16% of families had none of its members earning a stable income, while 43.3% had just one. Despite one of the highest unemployment rates in the region, there was a consistent labor shortage with over a million migrant workers present on the market.[72] These migrant workers formed the bulk of the refugees leaving Libya after the beginning of hostilities. Despite this, Libya's Human Development Index in 2010 was the highest in Africa and greater than that of Saudi Arabia. Libya had welfare systems allowing access to free education, free healthcare, and financial assistance for housing, while the Great Manmade River was built to allow free access to fresh water across large parts of the country.[73]

Some of the worst economic conditions were in the eastern parts of the state, once a breadbasket of the ancient world, where Gaddafi extracted oil.[74][75] Despite improvements in housing and the Great Manmade River allowing access to free fresh water,[73] not much infrastructure beyond this was developed in the region for many years, with the only sewage facility in Benghazi being over 40 years old, and untreated sewage has resulted in environmental problems.[76]

Several foreign governments and analysts have stated that a large share of the business enterprise was controlled by Gaddafi, his family, and the government.[77] A leaked US diplomatic cable said that the Libyan economy was "a kleptocracy in which the government – either the Gaddafi family itself or its close political allies – has a direct stake in anything worth buying, selling or owning".[78] According to US officials, Gaddafi amassed a vast personal fortune during his 42-year leadership.[79] The New York Times pointed to Gaddafi's relatives adopting lavish lifestyles, including luxurious homes, Hollywood film investments, and private parties with American pop stars.[78][80]

Gaddafi said that he was planning to combat corruption in the state by proposing reforms where oil profits are handed out directly to the country's five million people[81] rather than to government bodies, stating that "as long as money is administered by a government body, there would be theft and corruption."[82] Gaddafi urged a sweeping reform of the government bureaucracy, suggesting that most of the cabinet system should be dismantled to "free Libyans from red tape" and "protect the state's budget from corruption." According to Western diplomats, this move appeared to be aimed at putting pressure on the government to speed up reforms.[81] In March 2008, Gaddafi proposed plans to dissolve the country's existing administrative structure and disburse oil revenue directly to the people. The plan included abolishing all ministries except those of defence, internal security, and foreign affairs, and departments implementing strategic projects.[83] He stated that the ministries were failing to manage the country’s oil revenues,[84] and that his "dream during all these years was to give power and wealth directly to the people."[85]

A national vote on Gaddafi's plan to disband the government and give oil money directly to the people was held in 2009, where Libya's people's congresses, collectively the country's highest authority, voted to delay implementation. The General People's Congress announced that, out of 468 Basic People's Congresses, 64 chose immediate implementation while 251 endorsed implementation "but asked for (it) to be delayed until appropriate measures were put in place." This plan led to dissent from top government officials, who said it would "wreak havoc" in the economy by "fanning inflation and spurring capital flight." Gaddafi acknowledged that the scheme, which promised up to 30,000 Libyan dinars ($23,000) annually to about a million of Libya's poorest, may "cause chaos before it brought about prosperity," but said "do not be afraid to experiment with a new form of government" and that "this plan is to offer a better future for Libya's children."[85][86]

Human rights in Libya
Further information: Human rights in Libya
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton with Libyan National Security Adviser Mutassim Gaddafi in 2009
In 2009 and 2011, the Freedom of the Press Index rated Libya the most-censored state in the Middle East and North Africa.[87][88] In contrast, a January 2011 report of the United Nations Human Rights Council, on which the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya sat prior to the uprising, released a month before protests began, praised certain aspects of the country's human rights record, including its treatment of women and improvements in other areas.[89]

The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya's delegation to the United Nations issued a report about human rights in Libya. The report said that the country was founded on direct people's democracy that guaranteed direct exercise of authority by all citizens through the people's congresses. Citizens were said to be able to express opinions to the congresses on political, economic, social, and cultural issues. In addition, the report stated that there were information platforms such as newspapers and TV channels for people to express their opinions through. Libyan authorities also argued that no one in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya suffered from extreme poverty and hunger, and that the government guaranteed a minimum of food and essential needs to people with low incomes. In 2006, an initiative was adopted for providing people with low incomes investment portfolios amounting to $30,000 to be deposited with banks and companies.[90]

The Revolutionary Committees occasionally kept tight control over internal dissent; reportedly, ten to twenty percent of Libyans worked as informants for these committees, with surveillance taking place in the government, in factories, and in the education sector.[91] The government sometimes executed dissidents through public hangings and mutilations and re-broadcast them on public television channels.[91][92] Up to the mid-1980s, Libya's intelligence service conducted assassinations of Libyan dissidents around the world.[91][93]

In December 2009, Gaddafi reportedly told government officials that Libya would soon experience a "new political period" and would have elections for important positions such as minister-level roles and the National Security Advisor position (a Prime Minister equivalent). He also promised that international monitors would be included to ensure fair elections. His speech was said to have caused quite a stir. These elections were planned to coincide with the Jamahiriya's usual periodic elections for the Popular Committees, Basic People's Committees, Basic People's Congresses, and General People's Congresses, in 2010.[94]

Dissent was illegal under Law 75 of 1973, and in 1974, Gaddafi asserted that anyone guilty of founding a political party would be executed.[91] With the establishment of theJamahiriya ("state of the masses") system in 1977, he established the Revolutionary Committees as conduits for raising political consciousness, with the aim of direct political participation by all Libyans rather than a traditional party-based representative system.[95] In 1979, some of the Revolutionary Committees had eventually evolved into self-appointed, sometimes zealous, enforcers of revolutionary orthodoxy.[95] During the early 1980s, the Revolutionary Committees had considerable power and became a growing source of tension within the Jamihiriya,[96] to the extent that Gaddafi sometimes criticized their effectiveness and excessive repression,[95][96] until the power of the Revolutionary Committees were eventually restricted in the late 1980s.[96]

The Green Book, which Gaddafi authored in the 1970s, was for years the principal text of political education. BBC cited a Libyan who said that teachers who called it "rubbish" could face execution.[97] "The Great Green Document on Human Rights treats the right to life as an individual human right and calls for abolition of the death sentence, except in the case of persons whose lives endanger or corrupt society."[90]

In 1988, Gaddafi criticized the "excesses" he blamed on the Revolutionary Councils, stating that "they deviated, harmed, tortured" and that "the true revolutionary does not practise repression."[95] That same year, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya issued the Great Green Document on Human Rights, in which Article 5 established laws that allowed greater freedom of expression. Article 8 of The Code on the Promotion of Freedom stated that "each citizen has the right to express his opinions and ideas openly in People’s Congresses and in allmass media."[89] A number of restrictions were also allegedly placed on the power of the Revolutionary Committees by the Gaddafi government, leading to a resurgence in the Libyan state's popularity by the early 1990s.[96] In 2004, however, Libya posted a $1 million bounty for journalist and governmental critic Ashur Shamis, under the allegation that he was linked to Al-Qaeda and terror suspect Abu Qatada.[98]



==================================

why not reading the same wikipedia that claimed a 2 million man march in support of gaddafi ?

you speak the same language as white house, bbc and al jazeera... because in truth, iran since 1979 has been a great asset to nato... khomenei, your mullah leader, sitting comfortably in france after having being kicked-out of iraq by the iraqi baath movement... you are spitting on your own face.
now, i had been warned-off before by one mod for supposedly insulting the "founder of a nation" by saying some of the above... but i ask the mods, do they want to promote the nato version of history??

you are right , shah was indeed better for ppl like u .

he enslaved all the arab countries , he bullied them , stole their resources and he putted a smile on his face at the end

thats the one u need , u need someone to rule u not someone who respects u and helps u fight back .

shah had soldiers on the ground in numerous arab countries , shah had military bases there .

we were happy , u were happy , West was happy . only the mullahs were concerned .

so shia of them

 

[atatwolf]

I hope Iran stops his behavior in Syria so the conflict that be settled and the region can move forward.

 

[jamahir]

my friend , your view of the world is so naive .

no... i am just calm, gentle and searching like a cat... so i always see the big picture... so for me, world political events are easy to understand where for most others it is astoundingly complex.

in every country on the planet , when the nation is on the verge of a revolution , there are ppl who oppose it and u cannot find a single one (revolution) in which the regime ruling that nation did not have public support .

many "revolutions" have been created by usa and nato... be that in libya, tunisia or syria or in ukraine.

many of the "rebels" who invaded libyan jamahiriya in 2011 were children of libyan exiles, or taliban from south asia, or qatari soldiers, or western commandoes, or other foreign groups.... only a few were actual libyan citizens.

now, why should nato militaries just happen to provide money support or aircraft support to such "rebels"?? why should nato prepare to invade libya despite russian satellite imagery proof that libyan airforce was not bombarding libyan cities?? had muammar gaddafi and the libyan military suddenly turned mad because of some strange disease?? or could the entire thing have been a plot to remove the last remaining socialist muslim nations?? nato had already done away with socialist afghanistan, socialist somalia, saddam's iraq and gaza governed by plo... and there remained syria and libyan jamahiriya and also socialistic algeria, and libya-friendly and major state, egypt... and tunisia was the closest to start this plot from...

of course, these are questions for you to think about.

and yes iran's shah had a little public support , namely from the elite cause the revolution would have overthrown them as it did .

you are right, but...

the west brought the shah to power... the west brought him down.

the west very cleverly used the socialist youth of iran to compromise with the mullahs... the end goal of usa was to bring the mullahs to power and when that happened, the mullahs jailed and tortured many of the same socialist youth who helped bring tthe shah down.

but the existence of such socialist youth is evidenced by "mujahideen e khalq" who were supported by saddam's socialist iraq which stood in opposition to the newly mullah iran.

While he was popularly seen as a demagogue in the West, Gaddafi always portrayed himself as a statesman-philosopher.[57]

the above example is why one should use wikipedia carefully... the political pages are so biased in favour of western governments ( and their puppets )... the above example is so patronizing ( by the western governments )...

i didn't bother to read beyond first two paras because i know the truths about libyan jamahiriya... but please consider these...

1. wikipedia has removed from ( List of largest peaceful gatherings in history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) the entry for the 2 million libyan person support for jamahiriya system and for muammar gaddafi... that is why i replied to you with a screen-shot... wikipedia removed the libya entry on or after 23rd july 2014...

2. the same wikipedia suddenly changed libyan jamahiriya flag in march 2011 from solid green to the libyan flag of pre-muammar years of western puppet, king idris.

3. the same wiki-leaks also released supposedly secret and supposedly scandalous emails in 2012 about the office of the president of syria.

he enslaved all the arab countries , he bullied them , stole their resources and he putted a smile on his face at the end

which arab countries were successfully bullied by the shah?? certainly not iraq, syria, egypt, algeria, somalia and libya... not even palestine... the rest of them, gcc mostly... but the gcc emirates were always nato slaves.

-------------
if you really want to know of the jamahiriya "direct democracy" systems, please read...
1. Refworld | Libya: Great Green Charter of Human Rights of the Jamahiriyan Era ( for great green document, 1988 ).
2. Green Charter Movement ( for green book ).

and there are many many videos and pages about khamis gaddafi ( of the khamis brigade ) and moosa ibrahim ( superb spokesman for libyan jamahiriya during 2011 ).

 

[Timur]

socialist or capitalist??

I am a internatianal raciest islamistic socialistic capitalist!

take a step back, analyze and then reply

you did not understand my post.. really not.. its about iran not syrians, who want to be baath.. for the normal farsi retard this is secterian.. they (farsi) grab the folk by secterian and let them do what they want, what do you think iran is doing in syria? all the iranian money and soildiers (yes soildiers) and commanders why are they there ? to biuld good hotels to make holiday there and eating kebab? iran needs the assad dog against israel and what do you think why this farsi are arming hamas? do you really think they are good hearted ppl helping the hamas and that is why they have no secterian intentions?

and for assads dog she is sunni like someone joining the church of england.. let her be what she want to be but dont make me laugh again

so I say it again: I do not belive that this was in the beginning a secterian conflict, but sure for lebanese farsis and farsi retards it is secterian.. for IS it is secterian so call it how you want but there are ppl out there who make it secterian..

 

[jamahir]

I am a internatianal raciest islamistic socialistic capitalist!

well, well, well... what a new bunch of humans?? how many of you??

you did not understand my post.. really not.. its about iran not syrians, who want to be baath.. for the normal farsi retard this is secterian.. they (farsi) grab the folk by secterian and let them do what they want, what do you think iran is doing in syria? all the iranian money and soildiers (yes soildiers) and commanders why are they there ? to biuld good hotels to make holiday there and eating kebab?...

i was really enjoying your post until you began insulting the hero, bashar al assad, and his brave and lovely wife, asma... you should really clear that aspect for yourself and you will see the whole picture

edit : the last big war syria had with israel was in 1973... syria then was aligned with egypt not with iran... syria and iran are two different systems... syria is the superior nation compared to iran... syria does not need iran at all... what syria needs is serious military help from russia, mainly, and from venezuela, cuba and north korea ( good allies ), and from china, if possible.

 

[Timur]

until you began insulting the hero, bashar al assad, and his brave and lovely wife

for me they are monsters.. so there is nothing good left for them by me

but I see the whole picture.. my adwise for you would be to consider your own "choice of view" without your feelings for them maybe you will find somthing between your point and my view

 

[qamar1990]

... and settled for some Shia biscuits in Yemen?

Have the Western / United Nations sanctions finally put to an end to Iran's schizophrenic chest thumping?

do you have a problem with shias bro?

 

[Cyberian]

do you have a problem with shias bro?

I have a problem with Iran's perverted ideological foreign policy targeting the Muslim World.

 

[Hiptullha]

but the existence of such socialist youth is evidenced by "mujahideen e khalq" who were supported by saddam's socialist iraq which stood in opposition to the newly mullah iran.

And we all know Saddam was just another American-supported dictator.

 

[Abii]

I have a problem with Iran's perverted ideological foreign policy targeting the Muslim World.

blah blah blah

Just say you hate shias and be done with it. You wahabis are all made from the same cloth. The muslim world is a zoo from top to bottom. The whole thing needs a reset button. And it's not Iran targeting your muslim world, it's you wahabi suicide bombers and terrorists blowing shit up and causing mayhem. Al Quida, Nusra Front, ISIS/IS/ISIL... Every sunni country is a mess and it's always sunni terrorism. Out of all that retardation you somehow pick Iran lmao

Just man up and say you have an issue with shias and be done with it.

 

[qamar1990]

I have a problem with Iran's perverted ideological foreign policy targeting the Muslim World.

who did they target???

 

[Hiptullha]

i was really enjoying your post until you began insulting the hero, bashar al assad, and his brave and lovely wife, asma... you should really clear that aspect for yourself and you will see the whole picture

Assad? A hero? Get real, buddy. There's a reason why there's a massive resistance against him. Yes, the US has been extremely supportive of the Syrian resistance, but it was the actions of the regime that led to this immense crisis.
I see you're a socialist. Perhaps it's your socialist bias which has led you to support men like Saddam and Gaddafi.

Just say you hate shias and be done with it. You wahabis are all made from the same cloth. The muslim world is a zoo from top to bottom. The whole thing needs a reset button. And it's not Iran targeting your muslim world, it's you wahabi suicide bombers and terrorists blowing shit up and causing mayhem. Al Quida, Nusra Front, ISIS/IS/ISIL... Every sunni country is a mess and it's always sunni terrorism. Out of all that retardation you somehow pick Iran lmao

The Iranian foreign policy is the other side to the same coin, buddy. If Russia was dominant right now, the Yanks weren't as powerful, and the monarchies weren't on the winning side, I'd be sure to bet we'd be seeing Shi'ite terrorist organisations running around doing the same thing Sunni terrorist organisations are doing. Neither side is doing any good. If anything, they're marching the entire region backwards in their quest to annihilate the other.

 

[Cyberian]

who did they target???

A long list of Muslim countries since they joined the Axis of Evil to buy time for their nuclear program.