Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[JamD]

"Orca" ...........Nuff said.

EDIT: Just to be clear I'm not speculating that Rafi is saying that we are buying the under development Orcas from the US or something. Just speculating on the type of program that he may be referring to.

P.S. I used to think that the most secretive programs are in aerospace. But having worked in aerospace I now know that the most secret programs are related with submarines. The amount of hush-hush around submarine technologies across the world is really unique. Just thought that was interesting.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I believe you are correct. Standard torpedo tubes are 533mm, HDW had modified them for the Israeli Dolphin class (modified U212) to 650mm in order to launch Popeye Turbo CMs. Pakistan had requested the same for the proposed U214, but was denied by the German Gov.
BTW Germany has subsidized all Israeli Navy assets built in Germany (Dolphins, Sa'ar V/VI corvettes )

If I recall correctly AIP was An issue as well. Germany at that time was not offering its fuel cell/AIP tech to anyone except NATO members. It could have been that both things were the issue, however I do not recall hearing about the cruise missile issue, that may be because I didn’t look into it much back then.

 

[araz]

If I recall correctly AIP was An issue as well. Germany at that time was not offering its fuel cell/AIP tech to anyone except NATO members. It could have been that both things were the issue, however I do not recall hearing about the cruise missile issue, that may be because I didn’t look into it much back then.

I suspect the issues related to AIP, 650 mm Torpedo tubes and Zardari's looting all accounted for the 214. The Germans were allegedly quite pissed off with us as they had German banks ready to loan us the money.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)

 

[Ali_Baba]

Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)

That youtube channel is the best channel to subscribe to if you want the latest on Naval News - he is an ex submariner and knows his stuff very well and can convey that very well. Highly recommended!

 

[FuturePAF]

That youtube channel is the best channel to subscribe to if you want the latest on Naval News - he is an ex submariner and knows his stuff very well and can convey that very well. Highly recommended!

Which is why his insights on the new European SSK designs made me think, IMHO, the PN needs to put on the break on its current Hangor design and should update the design with this new shape (which can create more room for fuel cells and boost the range as well as lower the acoustic signature)

Even if the Hangors are delayed a few years becauseof this, I think it’s worth it for a sub that will probably be in PN Service for the next 30-40 years.

 

[araz]

Hope the PN is looking at the new designs (“pyramid shaped” outer hull like the Astute class) coming out of Europe and the benefits to acoustic stealth. They should seriously consider a redesign to the Hangor class subs IMHO. Just like the Australians pivot to a design that suits the new situation, so to should Pakistan look for a submarine that achieves regional superiority in the undersea domain. I would think a SSK design that doesn’t require the sub to surface during its entire 6-12 week patrol or could achieve sustained high speed dashes could be a game changer (presumably if it could fit enough fuel cells to do so)

Bhai. In which world do you alter a stable design so radically without any research into its implications on the platform. I do not deny there maybe benefits in this newer designs but you would need to conduct your own research over what it would do to the current design. This would set project xeliveries back by upto 3 to 5 years and if the Chinese detect a problem with their newer design then are you going to wait for them to iron it out? Besides who do you expect to pay for all this research and what would be the cost implications? You can try it initially on one of your midgets and see how it responds and then implement design changes accordingly. However bef9re that do a cost benefit analysis to see what impact it would have and what benefits would it bring to us. We should not just jump on to any bandwagon and ask for changes.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

Bhai. In which world do you alter a stable design so radically without any research into its implications on the platform. I do not deny there maybe benefits in this newer designs but you would need to conduct your own research over what it would do to the current design. This would set project xeliveries back by upto 3 to 5 years and if the Chinese detect a problem with their newer design then are you going to wait for them to iron it out? Besides who do you expect to pay for all this research and what would be the cost implications? You can try it initially on one of your midgets and see how it responds and then implement design changes accordingly. However bef9re that do a cost benefit analysis to see what impact it would have and what benefits would it bring to us. We should not just jump on to any bandwagon and ask for changes.
A

Not jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of following a fad or trend. But if there is a potentially significant shift in submarine designs, just like stealth fighters improved a key aspect of survivability, research should be done to be independently verify these claims.

Perhaps the Hangor plan can be divided into two parts; 4 subs of the current design and 4 of an updated design if the research pans out. So as not to derail delivery tike tables for the first few boats, but also get the most out of our sub force.

As for funding, I’m sure the Chinese will want to keep up with what’s coming out of its competitors shipyards. Btw, even the next generation US SSN is expected to possible feature a similar design update as per the ex-us navy sonar man on the “Sub Brief” YouTube channel.

 

[araz]

Not jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of following a fad or trend. But if there is a potentially significant shift in submarine designs, just like stealth fighters improved a key aspect of survivability, research should be done to be independently verify these claims.

Perhaps the Hangor plan can be divided into two parts; 4 subs of the current design and 4 of an updated design if the research pans out. So as not to derail delivery tike tables for the first few boats, but also get the most out of our sub force.

As for funding, I’m sure the Chinese will want to keep up with what’s coming out of its competitors shipyards. Btw, even the next generation US SSN is expected to possible feature a similar design update as per the ex-us navy sonar man on the “Sub Brief” YouTube channel.

Bhai Cheen wale zakaat nahi nikaltay apnay maal pay. They will want you to pay for the research. I am trying to say that we must recognize and rise above this bull crap about Pakistan cheen bhai bahi. In most cases there is a transactional relationship. In certain instances they have made allowances because overall the research has helped them improve their own products. However so far to my very inexpert eye, the Chinese have not come out with an original design barring J20 and that too might have had bearings from the SU series (pure guess work on my part). The J10 has had input from the Lavi programme and the J31 from the F35. These have subsequently been worked on to give a finished product.
As to design changes in the subs, whether we need the additional stealth is another factor to consider since the Arabian see makes life difficult for people trying to find subs. I think if you want you need to start small and try it out on the midget subs as you have a bit of say in its manufacturing. Once the design is tested it an be brought onlone for ogher projects but not for the Chinese projects. Your best bet at this time is to talk to the Turks, if they are interested.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

Bhai Cheen wale zakaat nahi nikaltay apnay maal pay. They will want you to pay for the research. I am trying to say that we must recognize and rise above this bull crap about Pakistan cheen bhai bahi. In most cases there is a transactional relationship. In certain instances they have made allowances because overall the research has helped them improve their own products. However so far to my very inexpert eye, the Chinese have not come out with an original design barring J20 and that too might have had bearings from the SU series (pure guess work on my part). The J10 has had input from the Lavi programme and the J31 from the F35. These have subsequently been worked on to give a finished product.
As to design changes in the subs, whether we need the additional stealth is another factor to consider since the Arabian see makes life difficult for people trying to find subs. I think if you want you need to start small and try it out on the midget subs as you have a bit of say in its manufacturing. Once the design is tested it an be brought onlone for ogher projects but not for the Chinese projects. Your best bet at this time is to talk to the Turks, if they are interested.
A

This is not about Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai. Their navy also has a requirement for the best sub designs they can possibly get from their industry. They operate 50 SSK and give or take 6 SSN/SSBNs. They will have to keep on improving their designs if they hope to increase the survivability of their boats. Just like the JF-17s, our side could raise the idea, and if their development side comes back with an estimate timeframe and co-development costs we can afford, I would hope the PN would go for it. We are already spending $5 billion on 8 submarines. Depending on how much more it would cost, it might be worth it, especially if our doctrine expands to move out of the littorals of the Arabian Sea and into the Indian Ocean for second strike deterrent patrols. Down the line, if we make this shift now, we won’t have to be considering SSNs or SSBNs. Remember in the 60s and 70s, the PN sub Ghazi was conducting blue water operations, and currently the PN surface fleet looks to be shaping up to take on the enemy in blue waters. The PN sub fleet should be able to keep up with the surface fleet and expand the area of uncertainty for the enemy, just like the Ghazi did.

 

[araz]

This is not about Pak Cheen Bhai Bhai. Their navy also has a requirement for the best sub designs they can possibly get from their industry. They operate 50 SSK and give or take 6 SSN/SSBNs. They will have to keep on improving their designs if they hope to increase the survivability of their boats. Just like the JF-17s, our side could raise the idea, and if their development side comes back with an estimate timeframe and co-development costs we can afford, I would hope the PN would go for it. We are already spending $5 billion on 8 submarines. Depending on how much more it would cost, it might be worth it, especially if our doctrine expands to move out of the littorals of the Arabian Sea and into the Indian Ocean for second strike deterrent patrols. Down the line, if we make this shift now, we won’t have to be considering SSNs or SSBNs. Remember in the 60s and 70s, the PN sub Ghazi was conducting blue water operations, and currently the PN surface fleet looks to be shaping up to take on the enemy in blue waters. The PN sub fleet should be able to keep up with the surface fleet and expand the area of uncertainty for the enemy, just like the Ghazi did.

The Chinese will not take your bait when you show them the new design in a youtube video and say " can you build us this one." They will either say we currently do not have the capacity to build a new design ( Shahid Lateef is on record having said the Chinese asked him if the PAF wanted them to build something like the F16 and also said we currently do not have the ability to do so) or turn around and ask you if you will foot the bill for the development. This could run into a couple of billions and if there is a failure it could rise steeply. You barely have enough to keep your shirt on with judicipus help from the IMF and WB. In this case you will be down to using large leaves to c9ver yourselves. In short to date no branch has taken on a project with the Chinese apart from the JFT where you have a product designed to your specs. Even there, rightly or wrongly the Chinese have been acused of reneging on their promise to buy 150 units of JFT. THE PAF refused to co-finance the F31 de elopment and to the best of my knowledge no other project has been shared with us. On the other hand the Chinese have been known to have stopped the PN officials from visiting their subs on occasion. So they might most likely ask you to foot the bill for a project where you dont have any money.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

The Chinese will not take your bait when you show them the new design in a youtube video and say " can you build us this one." They will either say we currently do not have the capacity to build a new design ( Shahid Lateef is on record having said the Chinese asked him if the PAF wanted them to build something like the F16 and also said we currently do not have the ability to do so) or turn around and ask you if you will foot the bill for the development. This could run into a couple of billions and if there is a failure it could rise steeply. You barely have enough to keep your shirt on with judicipus help from the IMF and WB. In this case you will be down to using large leaves to c9ver yourselves. In short to date no branch has taken on a project with the Chinese apart from the JFT where you have a product designed to your specs. Even there, rightly or wrongly the Chinese have been acused of reneging on their promise to buy 150 units of JFT. THE PAF refused to co-finance the F31 de elopment and to the best of my knowledge no other project has been shared with us. On the other hand the Chinese have been known to have stopped the PN officials from visiting their subs on occasion. So they might most likely ask you to foot the bill for a project where you dont have any money.
A

Fair enough point. Best to work on our finances and take what’s on offer.

 

[khanasifm]

When is the first Sub due for delivery ?

 

[khanasifm]

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Which is why his insights on the new European SSK designs made me think,

European waters: North/Baltic/Mediterranean Sea(s) are very different in temperature, salinity, depth and area. Each of these effect the specifications of a sub.