Gujrat Muslims' massacar supportd by Govt

[Always Neutral]

Gujarat riots a genocide: Tehelka

 

[Flintlock]

Whether its 2000 or 3000 does it matter ?

It matters because of the term you are using.

So now you wish to compare India to Rwanda, Darfur and Bosnia. Well thats your perogrative !

We cannot compare Gujarat to Rwanda and Darfur because the two are beyond comparison.

Rwanda and Darfur fit the definition of Genocide, whereas Gujarat does not.

Haven't some localities in Gujarat become no go areas for Muslims and vice versa ?

Indeed, Gujarati society is highly ghettoized and polarized.

How exactly does that translate to Genocide?

 

[Always Neutral]

IHRC - THE GUJARAT GENOCIDE: A barbaric and planned tragedy?

 

[Always Neutral]

Vision Jafri - Fighting Fascism

 

[vish]

Dear Vish,

From all accounts published in the media it was a genocide in certain neighborhoods.

However I understand that the Indian Courts have gone out of the way to give justice to the people which is a very good thing. I am happy that Indians and Indian Govt. have realised that the more they intergrate with the West the more they will be accountable for their human rights records and such incidents will probably not happen in future.

Regards

Yes, you're correct that Muslims in certain neighborhoods were wiped out.

But Hindus in certain areas were also killed-off entirely.

Does this imply that Gujrat riots were both a anti-Muslim and anti-Hindu genocide?

I'm not contesting that extent of barbarity in Gujrat at that time; however, these riots cannot be termed as genocide just because some sections of the state machinary were being passive for certain periods of time.

There were several instances where the police and the bureaucracy did do their jobs.

 

[Always Neutral]

Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Coalition Against Genocide is a coalition of about 40 organisations mostly based in the United States and Canada, including, among others, the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate[1] and Alliance for a Secular and Democratic South Asia, as well as individuals, who aim to respond to the 2002 Gujarat violence, which they refer to as the "Gujarat genocide", in order to "demand accountability and justice."[2] The coalition of organisations protested against the visit of Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, to the United States in March 2005.

 

[Always Neutral]

Yes, you're correct that Muslims in certain neighborhoods were wiped out.

But Hindus in certain areas were also killed-off entirely.

Does this imply that Gujrat riots were both a anti-Muslim and anti-Hindu genocide?

I'm not contesting that extent of barbarity in Gujrat at that time; however, these riots cannot be termed as genocide just because some sections of the state machinary were being passive for certain periods of time.

There were several instances where the police and the bureaucracy did do their jobs.

As I said a genocide is a genocide whether it was carried out by the Muslims in burning a train or Hindus killing all muslims in their locality and where the Govt. turned a blind eye and thats the only reason why I cannot accept this to be a riot. If the Govt. had done its duty i would have agreed with you that it was a riot. By the way its not only some sections of the Govt. which did not do their duty but the whole Govt. actively colluded in preventing the Police from do its duty.

Regards

 

[Flintlock]

Gujarat riots a genocide: Tehelka

A media agency is bound to use exaggerated headlines to capture attention.

For a more authentic source, please consult the report of the National Human Rights Council:
Report on the visit of NHRC Team headed by Chairperson, NHRC to Ahmedabad, Vadodra and Godhra

 

[Always Neutral]

NDTV.com: Deep nexus revealed in Gujarat riots

NDTV Correspondent
Friday, July 20, 2007 (Ahmedabad)
The Gujarat riots in 2002 saw the worst communal violence in recent history where over 1000 people were killed.

For more than four years, those working for justice for the people killed in the riots have been decoding more than four million phone calls to prove the police-administration-politician nexus.

The analysis of the cell phone records between February 27, 2002 and February 28, 2002 was presented to the Nanavati Commission on Friday.

NDTV has exclusive access to the disturbing evidence.

The Muslim dominated colonies - Gulbarg Society and Naroda Patiya - were among the worst affected areas in Ahmedabad. Within five hours, more than 130 people were burnt alive and killed.

Mukul Sinha, a lawyer with Jan Sangharsh Manch - a rights group - now believes he can establish without doubt what he calls culpable negligence and the links between the perpetrators of violence, the administration and the political establishment.

''We have managed to co-relate the phone calls and numbers which were given in a CD by Rahul Sharma to the Nanavati Commission. On basis of these calls we have analysed the role of top police officers in a particular area, Zone 4 and 5 and Jt Com, Sec 2 covering the Naroda and Meghaninagar areas,'' Sinha said.

''These phone calls lead to some sort of a pattern. Our findings given to the Commission show that police officers left the places during crucial time with their strike force. The calls show these officers moved away.

''So what these officers told the Commission earlier that they were overpowered by the mob is wrong as these calls are telling us a story that they moved away. In fact whenever the police officers move it is preceded or followed by calls from a politician or even the Home Minister,'' he said.

Police apathy

There were few key individuals in the nexus of phone calls made before, during and after attacks at Naroda-Patiya and Gulbarg society.

The senior-most officer in the area was MK Tandon, then the joint commissioner of police of Ahmedabad's Sector 2.

The other key players were PB Gondiya, the DCP of zone 4, Mayaben Kodnani, the BJP MLA from Naroda, Jaideep Patel, the Gujarat VHP's General secretary, Bipin Panchal, a BJP worker accused in the Naroda case and Babu Bajrangi, also accused in the Naroda case.

Gulbarg Society is a Muslim neighbourhood in the Meghaninagar area of Ahmedabad. On February 28, at around 3 pm it was attacked by a 20,000-strong mob.

Among those who lived in the society was Congress MP Ehsaan Jafri, who made innumerable calls for help. He was one of the 50 people burnt to death. His body was never found.

At around 4.30 pm the same day, the mobs moved to Narodya Patiya. Over the next four hours, 83 people were butchered, many of them burnt alive.

The top cops in charge of these areas were not in their designated jurisdictions between the critical hours of three and eight pm on February 28, 2002.

When Gulbarg Society was attacked between 3 and 4.30 pm, Gondiya, in whose jurisdiction Naroda Patiya falls, was away in the Revdi Bazar area.

And later, between 4.30 and 8 pm as Naroda Patiya was attacked, Gondiya was in the Gulbarg Society area. He again moved to Revdi Bazar around 7.30 pm from where he went to the Police Headquarters in the Shahibaug area around 8 pm.

Criminal act

Cellphone records reveal that in the entire time Gondiya was in touch with Commissioner of Police PC Pandey and Joint Commissioner of Police MK Tandon.

Gondiya says he will react to these charges only before the Commission.

Gondiya's boss, MK Tandon - the area's Joint Commissioner of Police - was also absent from both Narodaya Patiya and Gulbarg Society while people were being butchered and burnt.

Between 3 and 4.30 pm when Gulbarg Society was attacked, Tandon was in the Revdi Bazar and Rakhial areas. And during rioting in Naroda Patiya between 4.30 and 8 pm, Tandon was moving between Gulbarg Society and the Police Headquarters in Shahibaug area.

Cell phone records reveal that during this, Tandon was in touch with Commissioner of Police PC Pandey, DCP Zone V RJ Sawani and DCP Zone IV PB Gondiya.

When NDTV contacted Tandon, he denied the charge. He said, ''I was very much present outside Gulbarg society on February 28 and for over three hours' time since I got to know about the incident from Commissioner's control (room). The allegations against me that I was absent in the spot, do not stand at all.''

NDTV corroborated that he was taken into Gulberg society at 5.40 pm on February 28, which is after the mob had attacked the building and had moved to Naroda Patiya.

Instead of the police, those who were present in the area were people like Jaideep Patel, VHP General Secretary.

He was in the Naroda Patiya area from 12 in the afternoon till 8 pm on February 28 - the crucial time when both Gulbarg Society and Naroda Patiya were attacked.

Cellphone records reveal that during this time he was in touch with State Home Minister Govardhan Jadaphia, DCP Zone V RJ Sawani and an accused in the Naroda case Bipin Panchal.

Also present in the area were BJP MLA Mayaben Kodnani, who has always maintained that she was in Gandhinagar on February 28.

But her cellphone records prove that she was in the Naroda Patiya area till 5 pm and then moved to the Shahibaug area.
During this time she was in touch with Jaideep Patel and DCP Zone V RJ Sawani.

Bipin Panchal, a BJP worker and an accused in the Naroda case too was present in Naroda area from 11.40 am till 8 pm on February 28.

The cellphone records reveal he talked several time to Home Minister Govardhan Jadaphia and Jaideep Patel from Naroda.

Similarly, call data of another accused Babu Bajrangi reveals he was present in the Naroda area from 11 am till 8 pm.

Will this prove enough to nail the main accused?

The Naroda-Patiya and Gulbarg cases standout as some of the worst of the Gujarat riots.

The new evidence presented before the Nanawati Commission clearly shows a lethal nexus between senior police officials, ministers, other politicians and Hindu right wing groups like the VHP and Bajrang Dal.

But all this is just the tip of a pile of data that establishes similar links in many riot cases.

Now the hope amongst those who've collected this material is that the Nanavati Commission can bring closure to these cases.


I have published an Indian link.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

A media agency is bound to use exaggerated headlines to capture attention.

For a more authentic source, please consult the report of the National Human Rights Council:
Report on the visit of NHRC Team headed by Chairperson, NHRC to Ahmedabad, Vadodra and Godhra

I think you are sensitive to the word genocide as you feel it shows India in poor light and compares it to Darfur however to us in Europe Gujarat will always be a genocide carried out largely by fanatics on both sides. Riots to us means when people go bersek after a foot ball match.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

A media agency is bound to use exaggerated headlines to capture attention.

For a more authentic source, please consult the report of the National Human Rights Council:
Report on the visit of NHRC Team headed by Chairperson, NHRC to Ahmedabad, Vadodra and Godhra

Please read from the same report the below

While the riots in the past involved both the communities in group clashes resulting even from minor incidents, the incidents following the Godhra incident are characterised by assaults by huge Hindu mobs on the members of the minority community. The size of the marauding crowds involved in the major incidents was found to be between five to fifteen thousand and the scale of violence and brutality of methods of killing and looting indicated long planning and indoctrination.

Over 100 mosques and dargahs were desecrated and damaged in Ahmedabad and about 500 in other parts of Gujarat. (Two members of the team saw the site of Dargah of Sufi poet Wali Gujarati, revered by both the communities, near the underground bridge at Shahibag, which had been razed to the ground.) Allegedly, the Govt., instead of protecting the site for reconstruction of the Dargah, has got the old historic Dargah ground flattened and now one sees an asphalt road with vehicles moving over it.


You just helped me to prove that its was planned genocide.

Regards

 

[Flintlock]

Please read from the same report the below

While the riots in the past involved both the communities in group clashes resulting even from minor incidents, the incidents following the Godhra incident are characterised by assaults by huge Hindu mobs on the members of the minority community. The size of the marauding crowds involved in the major incidents was found to be between five to fifteen thousand and the scale of violence and brutality of methods of killing and looting indicated long planning and indoctrination.

Over 100 mosques and dargahs were desecrated and damaged in Ahmedabad and about 500 in other parts of Gujarat. (Two members of the team saw the site of Dargah of Sufi poet Wali Gujarati, revered by both the communities, near the underground bridge at Shahibag, which had been razed to the ground.) Allegedly, the Govt., instead of protecting the site for reconstruction of the Dargah, has got the old historic Dargah ground flattened and now one sees an asphalt road with vehicles moving over it.


You just helped me to prove that its was planned genocide.

Regards

I'm afraid that in that case we will have to agree to disagree.

There was large scale rioting, involving both communities. However, it cannot be termed genocide.

 

[Flintlock]

I think you are sensitive to the word genocide as you feel it shows India in poor light and compares it to Darfur however to us in Europe Gujarat will always be a genocide carried out largely by fanatics on both sides. Riots to us means when people go bersek after a foot ball match.

Regards

Oh and please don't flaunt your peaceful Europe here. The history of 20th century Europe is pockmarked with hideous Genocides (yes!proper, full fledged Genocide) across your proud continent.

 

[vish]

As I said a genocide is a genocide whether it was carried out by the Muslims in burning a train or Hindus killing all muslims in their locality and where the Govt. turned a blind eye and thats the only reason why I cannot accept this to be a riot. If the Govt. had done its duty i would have agreed with you that it was a riot. By the way its not only some sections of the Govt. which did not do their duty but the whole Govt. actively colluded in preventing the Police from do its duty.

Regards

I do agree with you that certain sections of the state government, police, and bureaucracy played a role in these riots. But this was not universal across the state and neither was it the major phenomenon; this is my argument.

There were sections of the police, army, and bureaucracy that did do their jobs and get into the act to stabilize the situation.

But I'll still maintain that this was not a genocide.

I will second SA that we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Always Neutral]

Oh and please don't flaunt your peaceful Europe here. The history of 20th century Europe is pockmarked with hideous Genocides (yes!proper, full fledged Genocide) across your proud continent.

Please tell me one such incident after the world war II in UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia.

Regards