Friendly Fire Incident between Iranian vessels in the Persian Gulf

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, respectfully speaking man "truth"seeker" isn't here to play tea-time with me as all of his previous comment towards me in and out of this thread revolved around casting doubt about my nationality and for some reason my political affiliation as well (I guess I'm some Bernie Supporter). I don't take things lying down, I will engage if I deem it to be necessary especially when someone is calling something that I know I'm not.

He can be as nice of a guy as he wants to too you but to me he has been nothing but a rabble-rouser wanting to call me what I'm not.

Also it should again be noted that it was "truth"seeker who started with me in this thread, posting a completely off-topic post about instead of the topic at hand.

Like I said, I understand your anger, but my point remains. Our principles should be rigid, if we change them constantly based on whether someone was being nice or not then this puts our integrity in question. Your respect for the elders should not be conditional on whether they started something or not. There is no need to add insults, they do not add anything to your argument, but rather downgrade it and you as a person. Reply in a respectful, level headed manner and you will go much further. I will not look in a positive light to anyone that treats their elders with disrespect, especially when we culturally obliged to show such respect. Let your mind settle first then you'll see things clearly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Do you realize that Pakistanis have a favorable view of Iran in that poll because they believe in the concept of Ummah and not because they like Iran? Do the same poll about Iran versus Saudi Arabia or Iran versus Turkey and then tell me the answer.

First. PEW is very reputable organization and this poll is part of a series of polls about global attitudes they have been conducting for years.

Second, if Pakistani attitudes towards Iran were simply an extension of Pakistani views towards the 'Ummah' they would be the same for every single Muslim country - they are not, there are variations. And even if the Pakistani views are the result of the concept of an Ummah, the fact remains that a majority of Pakistanis, when asked specifically about Iran, said they had a favorable view of Iran, which debunks your claim of "Anti-Iranian sentiments in Pakistan are deeply rooted and the reason for that is the sectarian fiber of the Pakistani culture and society."

So again, you need to retract your earlier statement since I've offered at least one credible source refuting your claim while you've offered nothing but your personal anecdotal experiences to support your claim.

Referring to your own argument, what are your nuclear weapons good for if you think you can't defend your territory from US airstrikes? The US doesn't dare to bomb Iranian civilians and we don't have nukes.

The issue is not Iran vs. Pakistan. You brought up "brotherly relations". If you had brotherly relations with us, you would've helped us arrest Rigi and Jundullah terrorists. You didn't do that. You said you could take care of the problem on your own but never did so. If you believed in brotherly relations, you would've secured the release of our soldiers currently captured by Baluch separatists inside Pakistan. This is an ongoing situation.

Pakistan doesn't have a magic wand, but you could give permission to our troops to chase those terrorists inside Pakistan. I'm sure if Saudi Arabia or Turkey had asked you for permission, you would've given them that. If you had done that, we would've returned your favor today that Baluch insurgency has become an issue in Pakistan. You didn't see this day coming. Did you?

We have always blamed Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel and the US for supporting terrorism in Iran. We have officially blamed them. However, Pakistan has been used as a medium for all terrorist attacks in the Iranian side of Baluchistan.

Our nuclear weapons are a last resort. We have no enmity with the US unlike Iran. Pakistan disagrees with US policies in the region and there is a lack of trust and both sides have different opinions about what they get out of the relationship respectively, but there is no existential or civilizational hatred at the institutional level. But in any case - our decision to not escalate into a conflict with the US and in my view the correct thing to do at that point in time.

And Pakistan has assisted Iran with Rigi and Jundullah - for someone who was obviously living in the UAE and traveling from there, Iran seems to blame Pakistan a lot instead of the Emiratis. Like I said, you yourself said that he was caught traveling from the UAE, so take it up with them, not Pakistan.

I've also explained to you (and you likely already know) that Pakistan has been fighting an insurgency in Balochistan for years. Kidnappings have occurred in Balochistan as have attacks on civilians and security forces. So if we're struggling to control these groups ourselves, what makes you think that Pakistan is not cooperating with Iran? Can you point to any credible evidence that supports this Iranian claim that Pakistan has not cooperated with Iran wherever it could?

Do you really think that Pakistan has a magic wand to answer all Iranian requests and fulfill Iranian demands when Pakistan herself is struggling to defeat the insurgency in Balochistan?

Also, are you aware that the wikilkeaks documents had US diplomatic cables outlining conversations between the Afghan President and other Afghan officials and US officials indicating that the Afghans had deliberately given shelter to the leaders of terrorist groups in Afghanistan? Iran needs to redirect her focus towards Afghanistan, instead of blaming and scapegoating Pakistan.

 

[QWECXZ]

First. PEW is very reputable organization and this poll is part of a series of polls about global attitudes they have been conducting for years.

Second, if Pakistani attitudes towards Iran were simple an extension of Pakistani views towards the 'Ummah' they would be the same for every single Muslim country - they are not, there are variations. And even if the Pakistani views are the result of the concept of an Ummah, the fact remains that a majority of Pakistanis, when asked specifically about Iran, said they had a favorable view of Iran, which debunks your claim of "Anti-Iranian sentiments in Pakistan are deeply rooted and the reason for that is the sectarian fiber of the Pakistani culture and society."

So again, you need to retract your earlier statement since I've offered at least one credible source refuting your claim while you've offered nothing but your personal anecdotal experiences to support your claim.

Honestly, I do not believe in the credibility of polls. Polls predicted a landslide victory for Clinton over Trump, but it never happened. Reputation is subjective. One of the reasons that right wing people are winning elections around the world is because people do not trust these 'reputable' media anymore.

Here's the same poll by PEW about Saudi Arabia

You see? 95% had favorable views. And 0% had unfavorable views. I told you that Pakistanis see the world through the lens of Ummah. Sorry, that's not our lens. And we do not want the majority of Pakistanis to have a positive view of us due to that reason. And most importantly, at the end of the day, the only thing I trust is my own experience. I don't believe numbers by an American think tank.

Our nuclear weapons are a last resort. We have no enmity with the US unlike Iran. Pakistan disagrees with US policies in the region and there is a lack of trust and both sides have different opinions about what they get out of the relationship respectively, but there is existential or civilizational hatred at the institutional level. But in any case - our decision to not escalate into a conflict with the US and in my view the correct thing to do at that point in time.

And Pakistan has assisted Iran with Rigi and Jundullah - for someone who was obviously living in the UAE and traveling from there, Iran seems to blame Pakistan a lot instead of the Emiratis. Like I said, you yourself said that he was caught traveling from the UAE, so take it up with them, not Pakistan.

I've also explained to you (and you likely already know) that Pakistan has been fighting an insurgency in Balochistan for years. Kidnappings have occurred in Balochistan as have attacks on civilians and security forces. So if we're struggling to control these groups ourselves, what makes you think that Pakistan is not cooperating with Iran? Can you point to any credible evidence that supports this Iranian claim that Pakistan has not cooperated with Iran wherever it could?

Do you really think that Pakistan has a magic wand to answer all Iranian requests and fulfill Iranian demands when Pakistan herself is struggling to defeat the insurgency in Balochistan?

Also, are you aware that the wikilkeaks documents had US diplomatic cables outlining conversations between the Afghan President and other Afghan officials and US officials indicating that the Afghans had deliberately given shelter to the leaders of terrorist groups in Afghanistan? Iran needs to redirect her focus towards Afghanistan, instead of blaming and scapegoating Pakistan.

Rigi met with Americans in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the UAE.

Your argument applies to Iran as well. If Iran can't keep the Baluch insurgency under control, what gives you the right to accuse Iran of supporting Baluch insurgency in Pakistan?

However, there's an issue here. Pakistanis have always blamed Iran for mistreating Baluchs, citing the fact that Baluch people are Sunnis. Pakistan is a Sunni country and you have Baluch insurgency. Don't you? Also, it makes sense for Pakistan to promote Baluch insurgency in Iran because if anything, Baluchis are Sunnis and Pakistan may think that they would prefer Pakistan over Iran.

We have directed our focus on our western borders because that's a lot more important for our national security and interests than our eastern borders. You said Iran supported Baluch separatism in Pakistan and I wanted to refresh your memory about the history of Baluch insurgency over all because Pakistanis tend to forget that history whether on purpose or not.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Honestly, I do not believe in the credibility of polls. Polls predicted a landslide victory for Clinton over Trump, but it never happened. Reputation is subjective. One of the reasons that right wing people are winning elections around the world is because people do not trust these 'reputable' media anymore.

Here's the same poll by PEW about Saudi Arabia

You see? 95% had favorable views. And 0% had unfavorable views. I told you that Pakistanis see the world through the lens of Ummah. Sorry, that's not our lens. And we do not want the majority of Pakistanis to have a positive view of us due to that reason. And most importantly, at the end of the day, the only thing I trust is my own experience. I don't believe numbers by an American think tank.

Your personal views about polls are not enough to discredit an extremely reputable and credible organization.

Secondly, the poll you posted only further supports my position - Pakistanis have different views about different countries. Were the views reflective of Ummah alone, they would be largely identical for both Saudi Arabia and Iran and other Muslims countries. Instead you see variations in the views about different countries, indicating the views are not based on feelings of 'ummah'.

Again, you have offered no credible source to support your claim that 'Anti-Iranian sentiments in Pakistan are deeply rooted and the reason for that is the sectarian fiber of the Pakistani culture and society", so you need to retract it or offer a credible source supporting your claim.

I find it rather odd that you're going out of your way to prove that millions of people hate Iran, instead of accepting the evidence on display that they don't. Perhaps part of the problem in Iran is a victim complex the regime has brainwashed Iranians with - everyone hates Iran and the regime is the only thing stopping the world from destroying Iran. Helps the regime stay in power that way.

Rigi met with Americans in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the UAE.

Your argument applies to Iran as well. If Iran can't keep the Baluch insurgency under control, what gives you the right to accuse Iran of supporting Baluch insurgency in Pakistan?

However, there's an issue here. Pakistanis have always blamed Iran for mistreating Baluchs, citing the fact that Baluch people are Sunnis. Pakistan is a Sunni country and you have Baluch insurgency. Don't you? Also, it makes sense for Pakistan to promote Baluch insurgency in Iran because if anything, Baluchis are Sunnis and Pakistan may think that they would prefer Pakistan over Iran.

We have directed our focus on our western borders because that's a lot more important for our national security and interests than our eastern borders. You said Iran supported Baluch separatism in Pakistan and I wanted to refresh your memory about the history of Baluch insurgency over all because Pakistanis tend to forget that history whether on purpose or not.

Here's another claim you have absolutely no evidence for - when has the Pakistani government officially blamed Iran for supporting the Baloch insurgency in Pakistan? Iranian government officials on the other hand have repeatedly made insulting threats and allegations against Pakistan, many of which are documented on threads on this forum.

Secondly, Pakistan and Iran have a settled border. Pakistan has no claim over Sistan or any other part of Iranian territory. Just because something makes sense to you or the neurotic Iranian regime does not mean it has any evidence backing it up. Pakistan has no motive for supporting the insurgency in Sistan.

 

[QWECXZ]

Your personal views about polls are not enough to discredit an extremely reputable and credible organization.

Secondly, the poll you posted only further supports my position - Pakistanis have different views about different countries. Were the views reflective of Ummah alone, they would be largely identical for both Saudi Arabia and Iran and other Muslims countries. Instead you see variations in the views about different countries, indicating the views are not based on simple 'Ummah' background.

Again, you have offered no credible source to support your claim that 'Anti-Iranian sentiments in Pakistan are deeply rooted and the reason for that is the sectarian fiber of the Pakistani culture and society", so you need to retract it or offer a credible source supporting your claim.

I find it rather odd that you're going out of your way to prove that millions of people hate Iran, instead of accepting the evidence on display that they don't. Perhaps part of the problem in Iran is a victim complex the regime has brainwashed Iranians with - everyone hates Iran and the regime is the only thing stopping the world from destroying Iran. Helps the regime stay in power that way.

They're enough for me. Those polls are just meaningless numbers out of thin air for me. I have always admired Trump for calling CNN fake news. And CNN used to be believed by many to be one of the most reputable American news outlets.

No, it doesn't support your position. In fact, it weakens it as it shows that Pakistanis have declared 0% unfavorable views toward Saudi Arabia. That completely proves my point that Pakistanis have a Muslim versus Non-Muslim mentality in issues like this. I don't want to bring Saudi Arabia in this, but we all know what Saudi Arabia is doing in the region and what the ideology they spread has done to your country as well.

I am not trying to convince you. I am convinced about what I said based on my past experiences. I value first hand experience above all. Part of it comes from here on PDF, and also from comments on YouTube. Also, I have met Pakistani people in Dubai several times and I can't say I found them great Iran lovers. If anything, most of them looked angry and unwelcoming to me. Even Arabs were more welcoming and friendlier. I never understood the reason until I joined PDF.

I never said millions of people hate Iran. I said Pakistanis by far make the most insulting comments toward Iran and Iranians that I have come across on this forum and if it weren't for few friendly Pakistanis I have known here, I would've responded to their insults more often. I don't see how you came up with that.

Here's another claim you have absolutely no evidence for - when has the Pakistani government officially blamed Iran for supporting the Baloch insurgency in Pakistan? Iranian government officials on the other hand have repeatedly made insulting threats and allegations against Pakistan, many of which are documented on threads on this forum.

Secondly, Pakistan and Iran have a settled border. Pakistan has no claim over Sistan or any other part of Iranian territory. Just because something makes sense to you or the neurotic Iranian regime does not mean it has any evidence backing it up. Pakistan has no motive for supporting the insurgency in Sistan.

I never said the Pakistani government. Did I? I was referring to Pakistanis on PDF. I thought it was clear.

And you think Iran has motive to support insurgency in the Baluchistan of Pakistan?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They're enough for me. Those polls are just meaningless numbers out of thin air for me. I have always admired Trump for calling CNN fake news. And CNN used to be believed by many to be one of the most reputable American news outlets.

No, it doesn't support your position. In fact, it weakens it as it shows that Pakistanis have declared 0% unfavorable views toward Saudi Arabia. That completely proves my point that Pakistanis have a Muslim versus Non-Muslim mentality in issues like this. I don't want to bring Saudi Arabia in this, but we all know what Saudi Arabia is doing in the region and what the ideology they spread has done to your country as well.

I am not trying to convince you. I am convinced about what I said based on my past experiences. I value first hand experience above all. Part of it comes from here on PDF, and also from comments on YouTube. Also, I have met Pakistani people in Dubai several times and I can't say I found them great Iran lovers. If anything, most of them looked angry and unwelcoming to me. Even Arabs were more welcoming and friendlier. I never understood the reason until I joined PDF.

I never said millions of people hate Iran. I said Pakistanis by far make the most insulting comments toward Iran and Iranians that I have come across on this forum and if it weren't for few friendly Pakistanis I have known here, I would've responded to their insults more often. I don't see how you came up with that.



I never said the Pakistani government. Did I? I was referring to Pakistanis on PDF. I thought it was clear.

And you think Iran has motive to support insurgency in the Baluchistan of Pakistan?

In essence, you prefer to believe your personal, limited anecdotal experiences instead of polling done over several years by a reputable organization.

I can't help you if you're that stuck to your biases that you refuse to accept credible, objective sources.

I never said the Pakistani government. Did I? I was referring to Pakistanis on PDF. I thought it was clear.

And you think Iran has motive to support insurgency in the Baluchistan of Pakistan?

I never said Iran supports the insurgency in Balochistan, and neither has the Government of Pakistan, whether military or civilian, ever made such an allegation.

The Iranian government & IRGC and military officials have, however, made allegations (of supporting terrorism in Iran) and threats against Pakistan repeatedly.

 

[QWECXZ]

In essence, you prefer to believe your personal, limited anecdotal experiences instead of polling done over several years by a reputable organization.

I can't help you if you're that stuck to your biases that you refuse to accept credible, objective sources.


I never said Iran supports the insurgency in Balochistan, and neither has the Government of Pakistan, whether military or civilian, every made such an allegation.

The Iranian government & IGRC and military officials have, however, made allegations (of supporting terrorism in Iran) and threats against Pakistan repeatedly.

I never said you as a person had claimed that Iran is behind the insurgency in the Baluchistan of Pakistan. If you read the threads about the Baluchistan issue in Pakistan, they all blame Iran for it. There was even a thread about whether Pakistan should side with Israel against Iran over the insurgency issue and it was assumed that Iran is behind the issue without any proof. If you think about the problem rationally, you will see that Pakistan has more motives to support separatists in Iranian Baluchistan than vice versa.

 

[Bokhari]

Dimwit, that's why I linked the post from the staff of the PDF. Read it.


There is no doubt that this terrorist act came from Iran. That's why ISPR referenced to the "terrorists routes" which are coming into Pakistan from Iranian territory.

You are jumping to conclusion stupid, most of religious and ethnic terrorist are based inside Pakistan as admitted by Pm Imran Khan as well so just built wire around border and Iran Pakistan both thoroughly comb the area for all miscreanants

And they are challenging amreecan navy....

Yes no problem with that mistakes happens, USA Russia and even turkey has made even bigger blunders

 

[bsruzm]

even turkey has made even bigger blunders

Can you name? It has to be bigger than Iranian warship hits another Iranian warship, or shoot-down of a passanger airplane.

 

[Blue In Green]

Like I said, I understand your anger, but my point remains. Our principles should be rigid, if we change them constantly based on whether someone was being nice or not then this puts our integrity in question. Your respect for the elders should not be conditional on whether they started something or not. There is no need to add insults, they do not add anything to your argument, but rather downgrade it and you as a person. Reply in a respectful, level headed manner and you will go much further. I will not look in a positive light to anyone that treats their elders with disrespect, especially when we culturally obliged to show such respect. Let your mind settle first then you'll see things clearly.

Since I like you and think you're one of the better members here I won't pry on this subject any further.

Thank you for the friendly advice Philosopher, I will take whatever measures I deem necessary in the future at my own discretion but I will keep what you've said in mind.

 

[Nilgiri]

Since I like you and think you're one of the better members here I won't pry on this subject any further.

Thank you for the friendly advice Philosopher, I will take whatever measures I deem necessary in the future at my own discretion but I will keep what you said in mind.

He is correct. The philosopher is wise. Take the high ground whenever you can. It will work out much better long term. Take it from one who has been in the muck too much in past and suffered.

 

[Falcon29]

Usually BS

One killed and reset rescued

Iran military announced 19 casualties I believe.

 

[Thorough Pro]

The risk of engaging with posters on the internet, you never know when you come across a lowlife

@mods please check his uncalled for abusive language.

No, we're not. That's probably a story about Saudi Arabia? Your brothers? Who have put the name of their royal family in the name of the country as its their property?

Iran is like your father. Without Iran, Pakistan is nothing but a separated part of India that looks exactly like Indians to all the world, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise (except that you're Muslims, which is deemed as worse than Hinduism by all powerful countries in today's world). The only thing that makes Pakistan a bit different is a touch of Iranian culture on you. So, talk with respect to your fathers, kid.

 

[Hack-Hook]

And you're not even denying that Iran is recruiting Pakistanis for sectarian conflicts abroad - how do you think Pakistanis feel about that?

Please also keep in mind that there is a minority of sectarian bigots in every country. Just because you run into a few here does not mean that every Pakistani thinks or feels the same way. Most of us would prefer a constructive relationship with Iran, but Iranian behavior also needs to change. Leave Pakistan out of your ideological wars.

Stop recruiting Pakistanis for your sectarian wars abroad - use your own people.

I wonder how you guys feel when Bahrain recruit pakistani people for the same reason ?

 

[Falcon29]

I wonder how you guys feel when Bahrain recruit pakistani people for the same reason ?

Say what?