French Avionics for JF-17

[sancho]

well better the deal must have something better than anything that India Mig-29/m-2000/harriers/mig-21bisons/mig-27/jaguars have other wise we'll still be in the same position..its is clear MRCA/su-30 is by far superior..

By the fact that the article don't say anything about what radar, maybe we can turn it around, which radars have the French?
As far as I know they have the RDY radar from the latest Mirage 2000-5/9, that the UAE also have, but which is on offer for IAF Mirage 2000 too. IMO not so likely although I've read about such an offer before, but how superior will it be to the Chinese radar(KJ7?)?
The next radar is the RBE 2 PESA from the actual Rafale F2, possible, though France already starts replacing its fighters with AESA radars, what should make the PESA ready for exports.
The last in the row is the RBE2 AA AESA radar, would be a good improvement for JF, but imo doubtful, because at the moment Rafale is one of the frontliners in the MMRCA and selling the same radar to PAF, would kill all Rafale chances to.

Just as an info, the Bisons and Mig 27 use older Russian radars, the Mig 29 will be upgraded to SMT batch with Zhuk ME, for Mirage 2k are RDY and Elta 2032 on offer, the same radar that already is available in IN Sea Harriers, the upgrade from Jaguar is noch clear

 

[blain2]

Ice-man,

You have touched on a very sore subject---you see PAF has made all the pakistanis believe in the MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE science---everyone talks about it now and no one wants to listen to something different and why it does not matter anymore---as it used to in the past.

Well---look at it this way---india has mig 21---mig 21 bis---mig 29---jaguar---su 27---M2k5 and then the su 30---now when you become the driver on an m2k5 and then the su 30---YOU ARE BY DEFAULT A SUPERIOR PILOT BY DEFINITION and a superior pilot by the process of advancement to a higher platform---to get there one had to have a minimum of superior quality flying skills.


Now on the other hand---paf has obsolete F7pg's---obsolete Mirage 3/5's obsolte A 5's---somewhat ok F 16's---so yes in pak air force flying these vintage aircraft, you had to be somebody to make the difference---the man behind the machine counted---as comparade to pak---indians don't have those worries---their selection is a stair step from a lower level to a higher level----.

Well pak says the same for their's---the problem is that the iaf stair step is at a different pleateau.

So---will the jf 17 ever be able to take on the su 30 on regular basis with all those upgrades---.

Now---hard competition and always on your toes attitude of the paf pilots will definitely count for something---it will give them that extra edge---but they deserve better than what they have---we can't send our men to lay down their lives all the time.

Mastan sahib,

While I do not totally disagree, but I think you have over simplified things. Both sides are flying vintage aircraft. MKI is the only recent exception.

To give you an idea, about this step approach, its not always done like this. PAF and IAF both have pilots of Mirages who will stay on the Mirages for their entire combat flying career because there is a need to specialize in a role and platform and impart the same training to others.

Comparing the two sides, lets take your point about going from M2K to MKI and lets say in the PAF's case, from Mirage to F-16.

Each aircraft has different flight characteristics and each has a different set of avionics suite available to it. The M2K in use by the IAF right now has avionics that are even inferior to PAF's blk 15 F-16s. We flew the version that came after the IAF's purchase of the M2K and rejected it in favour of the blk-15 F-16s. That should give you an idea about the relative avionics on the IAF's Mirage 2000s. After their future upgrades, these aircraft will indeed have nicer avionics, but for now, they are fairly limited.

The only 4-4.5 generation aircraft in service with the IAF is MKI. None of the other aircraft aside from the MKI offer very modern avionics (by this I mean things out of the league of what PAF is operating).

Then the pilot steps into the MKI (by the way, IAF is putting both wet behind the ear and experienced pilots in the MKIs) so not everyone flying an MKI is coming off Fishbeds and Mirages.

As different as things may look to many, in reality, they are not that different.

 

[Sapper]

@Sapper

Thanks for correction bro, i mistook it with FCPGA. As you mentioned that NDC/AERO have been using this, can you enlighten me briefly as to what projects they have undertaken so far?

Thanks

Dear,

Extremely sorry to disappoint you but, firstly, I don't have information on what they utilize FPGAs for in NDC/NESCOM/AERO, and secondly, even if i did i would not reveal it.

But in general manner, FPGAs can be used to do anything and everything, from video processing to radar processing to mathematical calculations, even micro-controller style processing. What i can tell you is that while studying FPGAs, a typical case study was the first implementation of FPGAs on Tomahawk Cruise missiles to act as a single chip that plotted trajectory for terrain following mode, and then switched to terminal guidance using IR/TV/GPS sensors.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

Thanks for being considerate. The reason pak defence industry is better off is due to the reason that they understand their limitations---.

In order for you to have indidigenious avionics production, you have to establish afoundation of research, quality, ideas and resource amongst other things.

Pak has no research----there are no quality phd's in pakistan in a large number---quality of workmanship is okay not par excellence---ideas---when you don't have open access to labs to do your thing, where do the ideas come from---there is no money for research---.

So---what does pak millitary do---they have made a decision based on their abilities---they have decided to put their egos aside and be realistic---they have decided to ride piggy back---in this wonderful world of high technology, it has been decided and agreed upon that financially and educationally less fortunate nations may enjoy on the success of well off nations and earn the right to partially use it for their personal use if they agree to buy it. In the due process of time, they can also modify it to their advantage with permission.

Once this issue has been resolved and agreed upon, it is not fruitfull to further discuss this issue any more---we need to move ahead---we cannot be arguing about all the time---it gets us bogged down, which ends in time and resource wastage.

The issue over here is not of beggars can't be chosers---that is the way the business is run nowadays.

The world of high technology is a smorgasbord of indigenious ideas---there is a place and room for everyone to pick and choose their alliances and move ahead.

As far as engineering is concerned it is almost there.
Research is going on, however it is not close to what it should be.
I know of some very good PHD, graduate level engineers who
have done excellent work.

I will not let you critique the intellectual capital.

Now coming back to the topic.
Army may have hit a balance in expectation and reality, however
the equation is not so clean.

My point is, that instead of buying a fully manufactured module, which is as closed as a black box is no use.
PAF had an excellent chance to partner in the research and development of the Chinese avionics.

Unfortunately this chance was put down.

Had this not been so, the SAME technology could have been in use with the army and the navy.

THIS is my source of frustration and I hate it when people try to
prove otherwise with arguments which have nothing to do with
transfer OR technology.

The Europeans give them a toy to play with and they go around boasting stuff on ego basis without even understanding what the toy is.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Mastan Khan

The only answer i have is this..

"The human factor will decide the fate of war, of all wars. Not the Mirage, nor any other plane, and not the screwdriver, or the wrench or radar or missiles or all the newest technology and electronic innovations. Men—and not just men of action, but men of thought. Men for whom the expression 'By ruses shall ye make war' is a philosophy of life, not just the object of lip service." IDF-AF commander Ezer Weizman:On Eagles' Wings

Hi,

Sir, you are taking too much for granted in your comments---seems like you are just trying to wing it by an open to interpretation kind of quote.

Possibly in your excitement you forgot that IDF had better planes and pilots than all the arab forces of that time put together---was it in the 67 war or were it the 73 war---israelis had better planes than the arab armies---they had better weapons systems----better missiles---better radar---better trained pilots----and also more planes than all the arab forces put together during the 67 and 73 wars---.

Now if I put your words to what I know about the indians---pakistanis are in for a surprise---start with cricket---indian men pummelled the pak men---indians shooters got the gold medals---pak shooters not even in frame---indian men dominating the IT sector here in san jose and the rest of the world---I don't see pakistanis anywhere---.

You have chosen to use the words of a man of character, vision and honour---a man who served his nation with honour and have applied it here extremely loosely just to look good and that is extremely in poor tatse---.

From your comments I doubt that you undferstand the significance of the defeat of the egyptian air force in 73.

And that answer is a bad answer---it is a nice answer to get rararara---but it has no substance.

 

[ice_man]

Some very simple questions. How do you suggest to counter the threat of Su-30s and Phalcons? Do you have the means and resources to acquire expensive Western fighters? If not, why aren't you willing to accept that PAF is doing utmost by initiating JVs with China which are well within our grasp? Why are you even comparing a rookie JF-17 with proven platforms such as F-18, Rafale etc.? Is the JF-17 meant to counter F-18, Rafale and Su-30? Isn't PAF already seeking BVR capability through China and France?

hmmm so in the event of war you would say hey sorry we couldn't do well because we didn't have the money or the resources we tried to do "TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY"....great going my friend...this is the problem with us pakistanis...in cricket our batsmen at 70 odd runs start cramping & we say poor guy bichara trying so hard cut him some slack he has done really well...blah blah blah...while i never heard an aussie fan saying poor ponting is trying to do the best of his ability they expect him to give a 100% all the time...he is PAID for it!

to simplify my point if PAF really tries to be more bullish it can arrange the funds! it can make the other 2 sister services understand that currently PAFs fighters are more important then upgrading AL KHALIDs! so yes its easy to put the blame on A,B,C but if you really have the will to do something you can get it done....its not like Pakistan is completely broke & has NO MONEY! its just that PAF doesn't put up a strong case!

 

[Dazzler]

@Mastan Khan

Your reaction is amazing as it seems some how i hit you where it hurts most (i would never attempt any such thing ever!). I do not want to go into an argument mode with you or anyone else but i am also not as pessimist as some are. For some unknown reason you took it personally which was not my intention at all. I only quoted the lines where the human factor was encouraged be it by Israelis or anyone else, it doesn't matter. Why did it hurt you so much. remains a puzzle to me.

 

[Dazzler]

By the way, I know more than few just what exactly happened in the 1967, Yom kippur and the 73 Arab-Israel wars and i also know what Israelis had and had not coupled with Yank backing which forced Anwar Saadat to say, "We can fight Israelis anytime but it is difficult to engage the Americans".

Sir, the importance of technology can never be negated as you rightly mentioned that it is equally important otherwise we would've never seen any advancements in it. IMHO, both factors are important but i could be wrong. Again, i am sorry if I offended you as I never meant that.

Thanks

 

[illuminatus]

hmmm so in the event of war you would say hey sorry we couldn't do well because we didn't have the money or the resources we tried to do "TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY"....great going my friend...this is the problem with us pakistanis...in cricket our batsmen at 70 odd runs start cramping & we say poor guy bichara trying so hard cut him some slack he has done really well...blah blah blah...while i never heard an aussie fan saying poor ponting is trying to do the best of his ability they expect him to give a 100% all the time...he is PAID for it!

to simplify my point if PAF really tries to be more bullish it can arrange the funds! it can make the other 2 sister services understand that currently PAFs fighters are more important then upgrading AL KHALIDs! so yes its easy to put the blame on A,B,C but if you really have the will to do something you can get it done....its not like Pakistan is completely broke & has NO MONEY! its just that PAF doesn't put up a strong case!

Like as if Rafale, F-18 fighters etc. are going to win us any wars. You need to realize that Pakistan's strength ultimately lies in its deterrence policy. As long as a strong and credible deterrence capability is at disposal the chances of an all out war are very slim. Besides, you cannot compete with your hostile neighbour in numbers and quality any more. We simply don't have the resources to match up on 1:1 basis. Bro, let's not compare defence with cricket.

I understand the excitement, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Firstly, PAF is currently focused on getting the JF-17 assembly production line up and running in full gear. Secondly, PAF has ordered new F-16s and is also in the process of MLU for older F-16s. Thirdly, let's not forget that PAF has initially ordered 36 FC-20s. Additionally, apart from the standard Chinese configuration, the JF-17 will be upgraded with Western radar and weaponry. That will most likely also be the case for FC-20s. The F-16s might end up getting the SABR AESA radar.

Conceivably, all of the aforementioned projects are time consuming and resource intensive. Also, in the coming years PAF will be fully focused on inducting 5th gen fighters which will be a very expensive and time consuming endeavour. PAF cannot afford to strain the limited budget by acquiring expensive 4th gen platforms from Western countries. This will jeopardise and adversely affect the transition to a 5th gen platform. It's very easy to be judgemental and raise questions from the sidelines. To sum it all up, PAF is a very professional and well-organized institute that fully understands the threats faced by the country. PAF will never compromise on the security of homeland. Please have faith.

 

[pak-yes]

Interesting Thread.

Isn't JF-17 meant to replace our aging fleet.

So i think that its primary purpose was just an economical Plane.But if we are getting Western and Especially European Avionics the whole purpose would be lost.It would become expensive.

I mean wouldn't it be better that we could get J-10A and Upgrade it with Western Avionics.

 

[Kinshuk]

Can anyone tell me how far exactly is J 10 from getting inducted in PAF?

See, if not much, then Pakistan should not do this upgrade, instead make your J 10 a super duper platform later on. Well thats my opinion but surely upgrading J 10 is really worth it as it is an aircraft which highly deserves to be as it is also going to be your front line fighter.

I feel the same for LCA as India has already and would be investing more money for its avionics, radars and so on. So.. I hope no Indian takes my post other way round. no offence to LCA.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Interesting Thread.

Isn't JF-17 meant to replace our aging fleet.

So i think that its primary purpose was just an economical Plane.But if we are getting Western and Especially European Avionics the whole purpose would be lost.It would become expensive.

I mean wouldn't it be better that we could get J-10A and Upgrade it with Western Avionics.

But economical plane does not mean a plane that do not threaten the invaders.

JF-17 is meant to be cost effective but not on the cost of obsolete avionics. Although Chinese avionics are not bad but are not also the best (one in JF-17).


J-10 will be having more potent avionics. If PLAAF has administered the PAF needs I donot think so we need to worry about them that much.

 

[pak-yes]

Can anyone tell me how far exactly is J 10 from getting inducted in PAF?

It can get inducted Tomorrow if PAF selects J-10A instead of J-10B.

But economical plane does not mean a plane that do not threaten the invaders.

JF-17 is meant to be cost effective but not on the cost of obsolete avionics. Although Chinese avionics are not bad but are not also the best (one in JF-17).


J-10 will be having more potent avionics. If PLAAF has administered the PAF needs I donot think so we need to worry about them that much.

Then we shouldn't had invested in JF-17 at all.The cost of Western Avionics is same as the whole plane it self.

 

[TaimiKhan]

It can get inducted Tomorrow if PAF selects J-10A instead of J-10B.



Then we shouldn't had invested in JF-17 at all.The cost of Western Avionics is same as the whole plane it self.

For God sake, atleast read the posts of the initial pages. Why repeating which has been amicably answered.

The package is not for avionics only, it consists of A2A missiles also, which will be in their hundreds. Similarly, radars would be extra, spare parts, and by looking at the price tag, it seems there would be some level of ToT and overhauling facilities, as these are the same companies which gave us the Grifo radars and local manufacturing facilities, the Falco UAV, Falco UAV local production technology and many other things too.

 

[Peregrine]

Hello,
I think equipping JF-17 with millions of worth of avionics and missiles would be a very calculated move, but one can establish a clue that may be JF-17 performed better than expectations & now this baby has earned it self a right to have state of the art avionics and BVRMS