French Avionics for JF-17

[MastanKhan]

@Mastan Khan

Your reaction is amazing as it seems some how i hit you where it hurts most (i would never attempt any such thing ever!). I do not want to go into an argument mode with you or anyone else but i am also not as pessimist as some are. For some unknown reason you took it personally which was not my intention at all. I only quoted the lines where the human factor was encouraged be it by Israelis or anyone else, it doesn't matter. Why did it hurt you so much. remains a puzzle to me.

Hi,

It is more of a disappointment with an intelligent member---just like I would disappointed with my son for being silly and not puuting the right effort in his assignment. That is all there to it---thanks for noticing.

 

[MastanKhan]

Interesting Thread.

Isn't JF-17 meant to replace our aging fleet.

So i think that its primary purpose was just an economical Plane.But if we are getting Western and Especially European Avionics the whole purpose would be lost.It would become expensive.

I mean wouldn't it be better that we could get J-10A and Upgrade it with Western Avionics.

Sir,

This plane was designed to take on the western avionics and engine right from gitgo---I don't understand why the posters are surprised. Economical planes also need fangs---I mean to say why would we need a toothless dragon. Fighter aircrafts don't come cheap---.

 

[illuminatus]

Interesting Thread.

Isn't JF-17 meant to replace our aging fleet.

So i think that its primary purpose was just an economical Plane.But if we are getting Western and Especially European Avionics the whole purpose would be lost.It would become expensive.

I mean wouldn't it be better that we could get J-10A and Upgrade it with Western Avionics.

Not at all brother. It won't affect the economical aspect of JF-17 in any way. The bulk of JF-17 fighters will not be integrated with Western avionics and weaponry. In the article it's clearly stated that only the first 50 (with an option of another 50 Thunders) being integrated with French goodies. PAF is aiming to balance between a high-medium mix of Thunder squadrons. In the meanwhile, the Chinese will come up with an AESA radar that they have been working on for a considerable time.

What I don't understand is that the very same sceptics that criticize PAF for not acquiring top notch goodies are now criticizing PAF for opting for expensive French avionics and weaponry. The sceptics need to understand that PAF knows what its doing.

 

[araz]

Not at all brother. It won't affect the economical aspect of JF-17 in any way. The bulk of JF-17 fighters will not be integrated with Western avionics and weaponry. In the article it's clearly stated that only the first 50 (with an option of another 50 Thunders) being integrated with French goodies. PAF is aiming to balance between a high-medium mix of Thunder squadrons. In the meanwhile, the Chinese will come up with an AESA radar that they have been working on for a considerable time.

What I don't understand is that the very same sceptics that criticize PAF for not acquiring top notch goodies are now criticizing PAF for opting for expensive French avionics and weaponry. The sceptics need to understand that PAF knows what its doing.

Can I just ask all the members what in their view is being sold to PAF? From what I can gather, It is not a PDR radar as PAF already has a very capable radar that it is very happy with. In my humble opinion it is an AESA radar. However, with news emerging of a very satisfactory Chinese competitor, what do we gain by going french? I think PAF will try out all possible combos and take the best on offer. The French ones have the advantage of easier integration of Western armaments, and missiles which PAF finds more convenient for the moment.With PL10A emerging and news of a new short range 5th gen missile, how long that will remain the case needs to be seen. We must also think of how well we will be able to face our future threats with missiles of which origin. Case in point French desertion of the Argentinians. If it happened to them, it may happen to us as well.
Te third conundrum ids what are we getting for the price. If we are only getting a few radars in kits which we will assemble, then we need not bother. However if we are getting more than that with some manufacturing rights of sub units, it may be worth our while. I personally think we do not know enough about this deal to comment at the moment.
y meagre input.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Dazzler]

@Mastan Khan

Sir, i thank you for your generous comments as i will endeavor to remember them and will remain on track from now on.


@Araz

Your comment is right on the mark as we have seen in recent past that jf-17 was supposed to have a full western avionics suite until Chinese came with a better one. IMHO, the high price suggest two things.

1. The avionics will come with full ToT like the ones in ROSE/MAESTRO upgrade package

2. The radar must be an AESA one as the Chinese are already working on an AESA variant for both jf-17 and j-10 so it only makes sense that the more competition between competitors, the better deal will emerge and PAF will still be on the winning side.

Every time we hear about french avionics, weapons and radar, the Chinese try harder by releasing tit bits in form of images, brief information about future developments as we heard in case of NRIET/lab 14 AESA development. What ever comes out of all this, it seems good for Pakistan.

 

[mean_bird]

Thanks Araz, that was my first request of the equipment and this thread went another way.

Well, IMHO, I won't be disappointed if its a capable PDR. Most people here just compare radars on the basis of their maximum range--because in part, it helps in future **** measuring contests. The reality is that there are far more features, technical , that are considered.

IMO, the basic reason for going Western is two fold. More importantly, PAF wants MICA and be a possible future customer of the Meteor if and when it becomes available. MICA is a very capable missile and is a Fire and Forget missile. Also the ECM of french avionics, I would expect, would be superior. Regarding any ToT, I think we will have similar ToT as with Grifo, i.e we assemble it here, can do maintenance, and be able to integrate our own arsenal. Ofcourse, an AESA would be the icing on the cake.

And secondly, PAF wants the Jf-17 to be versatile and not a Chinese dependant jet either. If any lesson should have been learned, its not "go chinese and not US" but "dont put all your eggs in one basket". China is our good friend, tested and reliable, but the more you commit yourself to one source, the more you give them future bargaining leverage both military and otherwise.

Another thing worth mentioning here is that ATE is an integrator and is of South African origin.

Possible avionics:
Radar = RC400/RDY with 500 watts transmitter
AAM = MICA
ECM/ECCM
FLIR
TopOwl-F HMD/S

and THALES have their own DRFM technology.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

French French can we also have a squadron Rafale deal with ya for our desperate NAVY? we will pay for it but no kickbacks.

 

[Dazzler]

@Growler

Even if the french are convinced, we is going to convince Mr. 90%?

 

[sancho]

Possible avionics:
Radar = RC400/RDY with 500 watts transmitter
AAM = MICA
ECM/ECCM
FLIR
TopOwl-F HMD/S

and THALES have their own DRFM technology.

mean_bird, so no AESA radar and are we talking about both MICA versions, or is PAF only interested in IR as a combo with SD 10?

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

French French can we also have a squadron Rafale deal with ya for our desperate NAVY? we will pay for it but no kickbacks.

No kickbacks

History: Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim wife and son are still living a life of luxury with F-16 kickbacks in US

Recent: Even Saudi Ambassador name came in Tornado deal with UK for taking kickbacks.

 

[Jazzman]

No kickbacks

History: Air Chief Marshal Anwar Shamim wife and son are still living a life of luxury with F-16 kickbacks in US

Recent: Even Saudi Ambassador name came in Tornado deal with UK for taking kickbacks.

Anwar Shamim case is example of how things come around to haunt you. Anwar Shamim and his wife were kicked out of their home by their son and they had to return to Pakistan. They were living a pretty miserable life in Islamabad.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

mean_bird, so no AESA radar and are we talking about both MICA versions, or is PAF only interested in IR as a combo with SD 10?

Nope. SD-10 is only for first 50 batch of JF-17s which are entirely chinese system. next 100 JF-17 will be with French which includes both MICA IR and RF. Next 100 JF-17 variant which will add the total fleet of 250 is not clear what it is going to be. Most probably AESA, stealthy not "STEALTH" and advance avionics to make it par with any 4.5 generation aircrafts.

 

[Storm Force]

So Now Growler is suggesting that JF17 is going to be on PAR with ANY I REPEAT ANY 4.5 GENERATION fighter

4.5 Generation fighters include

Typhoon
Rafael
SU35/SU30MKI
GRIPEN NG
F18SH
F16/60
MIG35
J10B

That will be some upgrade/ enhancement and by Pakistan/china of all countries

 

[Dazzler]

One thing that needs to be cleared here is what is the role of jf-17 in PAF and other customers. It should be clear by now that no matter what happens, it WILL remain what it was developed for i.e an affordable, main stay fighter aircraft for PAF. China and other customers. It does have its limitations in terms of payload, engine thrust etc. but one must not under estimate it in terms of avionics and weapon delivery capability and even radar and EW systems. There is no logic in comparing a MAINSTAY fighter with those of the FRONT LINE, ULTRA EXPENSIVE ones. Thunder is NOT a frontline fighter and will never be but that doesnt mean that it has inferior avionics, radar, weapons or EW. Please go through the JF-17 Thread where many forum members have attempted to clarify this scenario.

The Second reason for this joint venture was to free Pakistani Aviation industry from reliance on foreign sanction loving countries who usually follow a double path for different countries. It is a symbol of liberation for us from sanctions once and for all !

 

[Kharian_Beast]

The Second reason for this joint venture was to free Pakistani Aviation industry from reliance on foreign sanction loving countries who usually follow a double path for different countries. It is a symbol of liberation for us from sanctions once and for all !

This joint venture in my view has switched heavy reliance on the U.S. and others with being heavily reliant on China and Russia now. Most of the JF-17 is not even made in Pakistan let alone the massive engine issue regarding possible issues with sanctions & spares, the formidable "two S's". It's not a symbol of liberation from sanctions, and we already get daily doses of emotional rants along the lines of "liberation for us from sanctions once and for all" it's too much yaar, stand down. But I will say that it is a symbol for future self reliance. If only we had undergone the venture from the start with more capable hands, Pakistan would be in a bigger league with their first fighter.