French Avionics for JF-17

[MastanKhan]

Ice-man,

You have touched on a very sore subject---you see PAF has made all the pakistanis believe in the MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE science---everyone talks about it now and no one wants to listen to something different and why it does not matter anymore---as it used to in the past.

Well---look at it this way---india has mig 21---mig 21 bis---mig 29---jaguar---su 27---M2k5 and then the su 30---now when you become the driver on an m2k5 and then the su 30---YOU ARE BY DEFAULT A SUPERIOR PILOT BY DEFINITION and a superior pilot by the process of advancement to a higher platform---to get there one had to have a minimum of superior quality flying skills.


Now on the other hand---paf has obsolete F7pg's---obsolete Mirage 3/5's obsolte A 5's---somewhat ok F 16's---so yes in pak air force flying these vintage aircraft, you had to be somebody to make the difference---the man behind the machine counted---as comparade to pak---indians don't have those worries---their selection is a stair step from a lower level to a higher level----.

Well pak says the same for their's---the problem is that the iaf stair step is at a different pleateau.

So---will the jf 17 ever be able to take on the su 30 on regular basis with all those upgrades---.

Now---hard competition and always on your toes attitude of the paf pilots will definitely count for something---it will give them that extra edge---but they deserve better than what they have---we can't send our men to lay down their lives all the time.

 

[Dazzler]

@Mastan Khan

The only answer i have is this..

"The human factor will decide the fate of war, of all wars. Not the Mirage, nor any other plane, and not the screwdriver, or the wrench or radar or missiles or all the newest technology and electronic innovations. Men—and not just men of action, but men of thought. Men for whom the expression 'By ruses shall ye make war' is a philosophy of life, not just the object of lip service." IDF-AF commander Ezer Weizman:On Eagles' Wings

 

[Rank]

from last 30 years Pakistan still not decide which platform best for PAF.

Last 20 years we always saying we dont have money "where is last 20 years of money". PAF ddnt buy any single State of the Art aircraft. Today our people comparing JF17 with our F16 (wow comparing a normal Aircraft with frontline aircraft) just because of avionics. Point is PAF still not decide/choose proper single platform for Front line, for Naval and for support.

We are far behind in quality now as well. Sometime we are talking about French avionics in JF17 sometime we talk about J10B sometime about J11 bla blaa. Why not PAF select 1 single proper platform for Navy and Airforce (Front/support) ?

Why we are still stuck in these F16 ???? even we know US not really interested to sell us. Americans knows (lobby behind) that these 18 or 36 F16 nuthing in front of enemy. These Chineez aircrafts might be good but we know rest of Chineez products quality. We should consider Rafale or any proper platform (these F16s etc) what can i say....

Forgod sake stop saying all the time we dont have money... if we dont have money "Today" or from last 3 years where is our last 15 years of money ??

PS: Please dont compare this JF17 + JF17 is nuthing simply nuthing state of the art in this... if BVR etc option it dosnt mean it will become a super duper fighter jet. PAF objective about this JF17 to replace old fleet of F7 and rest of others thats it nothing else more about.

Please change statement when it comes to IAF PAF that "Man behind machine". If man behind machine is everything thn PAF select WWII aircraft and get ready for face 2 face SU30 MKI VS WWII aircraft


Thanks,

 

[SBD-3]

we can say PAF is a "falconized" Airforce......... I can still remember the interview of a PAF superior saying "Given the suitable air power....you can't beat 'em (F-16)".........PAF judges everything against F-16....F-16 is, no doubt, a legend but we need to move on now.......Stop thinking about falcons only.....world is changing.....and Falcon is aged now.....about to die in a decade or two

 

[ice_man]

@Mastan Khan

it will give them that extra edge---but they deserve better than what they have---we can't send our men to lay down their lives all the time.

very well said sir!! we want our fly boys to come home to we can't send them on kamikaze missions ALL the time!

the problem is this attitude of pakistanis that MUSLIM meat eating Pakistanis are just better than Indians! i am sorry this needs to change underestimating your enemy is a battle lost even without a shot being fired! time for PAF to seriously try & bridge the gap & for that we cannot count on upcoming systems we need to buy top of the line tried & tested platforms like F-16s BLK 52s & Mirages....just to get to the same "Plateau" like you said! I hope more people would come around to our point of view...specially the people who are the decision makers i.e. PAF chiefs!

 

[illuminatus]

well i am sorry & i am sure people on this forum don't like hearing this...but by the time i.e. 2013 when we start getting our AVIONICS plus Missiles upgrades the "enemy" would start possibly receiving its MMRCAs! now the question is we would still be a step behind the enemy! i know i know people here would go like INDIA is slow in its procurement program blah blah blah.... well guess what the have there phalcons & SU-30s and have a BVR capabilty since a decade ago i guess WE are so busy pointing fingers at others we didn't see that we are actually stepping into the 21st century a decade later!!

this "FRENCH PACKAGE" better have an AESA radar because once the JF goes up in the air it better be able to stand up the hornet,rafale or the Sukhois!! or we will be back to where we are today our Mirage IIIs vs the SU-30s!

p.s. whoever replies to my post first will get the most thanks from people on this forum i can gurantee this all you need to make sure is you put in words "i heard from a JF pilot"...& "JF is the best!" :p

Some very simple questions. How do you suggest to counter the threat of Su-30s and Phalcons? Do you have the means and resources to acquire expensive Western fighters? If not, why aren't you willing to accept that PAF is doing utmost by initiating JVs with China which are well within our grasp? Why are you even comparing a rookie JF-17 with proven platforms such as F-18, Rafale etc.? Is the JF-17 meant to counter F-18, Rafale and Su-30? Isn't PAF already seeking BVR capability through China and France?

 

[Sinnerman108]

If PAF is getting the avionics without ToT AND an assembly line at AWC Kamra before the first components are burnt on the board then it is a very very sad decision.

Mastan will give 100 arguments, all of them may be correct from one point of view.

However when it comes to avionics PAF should ONLY go indigenous.

If we don't get this right now, PAF will always remain follows, always beggars never choosers.

 

[Dazzler]

The agreement is for full TOT just like we had for ROSE program and Grifo radar. New machinery and tools along with chip fabrication process is being installed so that the whole electronics can be manufactured at KARF.

See the link below for more info.

http://www.macalliance.com/APS%20Novastar on a circuit in Pakistan.pdf

 

[Sinnerman108]

The agreement is for full TOT just like we had for ROSE program and Grifo radar. New machinery and tools along with chip fabrication process is being installed so that the whole electronics can be manufactured at KARF.

See the link below for more info.

http://www.macalliance.com/APS Novastar on a circuit in Pakistan.pdf

Boss,

That precisely is not what we want !
that is not ToT !
Kamra has had SMT burning machines since at least 8 years.

Unless the board's design, ROM, the processor, the FPGA is opened up (and the source code off course) , and the material technology is revealed in radars there is ABSOLUTELY no point in manufacturing boards.

It will be great if you can dig up some details on the "ToT" !

 

[Dazzler]

You dont run before you walk. Its a start and will only get better with the passage of time. Please read the link and you will understand what they are getting this time. They are getting whole printed circuit boards manufacturing process that will help them in coming years. We never had this capability before.

 

[Sinnerman108]

You dont run before you walk. Its a start and will only get better with the passage of time. Please read the link and you will understand what they are getting this time. They are getting whole printed circuit boards manufacturing process that will help them in coming years. We never had this capability before.

I walk and I can run and I am very sure of what I am talking about.

This is not a start it is a lame excuse for a start, please find out how the PAF -> AWC makes / assembles radars.

The SMT machines have been there before,
PIA has another SMT machine that they do not know how to use.
CTI has another which has been used only sparingly.

Understand this, SMT is NOT ToT !
it is a tool NOT Technology !

 

[Dazzler]

Your point is very valid but there are many factors involved in the manufacturing of high quality avionics (open architecture based) as only few countries are able to achieve this. FPGA or Flip Pin Grid Array is a very advance technology exclusively in possession of US, France, Britain and few others. We don't have the infra structure and industrial expertise in this field as well as in many other fields and if we go for very minute manufacturing process like FPGA, we might not be able to absorb it easily. I can only hope that we achieve this level of technological expertise in this field as soon as possible.

 

[Sapper]

Your point is very valid but there are many factors involved in the manufacturing of high quality avionics (open architecture based) as only few countries are able to achieve this. FPGA or Flip Pin Grid Array is a very advance technology exclusively in possession of US, France, Britain and few others. We don't have the infra structure and industrial expertise in this field as well as in many other fields and if we go for very minute manufacturing process like FPGA, we might not be able to absorb it easily. I can only hope that we achieve this level of technological expertise in this field as soon as possible.

Dear,

FPGA is Field Programmable Gate Array, and Defence industry "uses" this technology rather than manufacturing the "chip" itself because thats the whole point of FPGA based design, you can do anything with it.

My company have been using FPGAs for a long time, and i do recall NDC/AERO people doing it as well.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Dazzler]

@Sapper

Thanks for correction bro, i mistook it with FCPGA. As you mentioned that NDC/AERO have been using this, can you enlighten me briefly as to what projects they have undertaken so far?

Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

If PAF is getting the avionics without ToT AND an assembly line at AWC Kamra before the first components are burnt on the board then it is a very very sad decision.

Mastan will give 100 arguments, all of them may be correct from one point of view.

However when it comes to avionics PAF should ONLY go indigenous.

If we don't get this right now, PAF will always remain follows, always beggars never choosers.

Hi,

Thanks for being considerate. The reason pak defence industry is better off is due to the reason that they understand their limitations---.

In order for you to have indidigenious avionics production, you have to establish afoundation of research, quality, ideas and resource amongst other things.

Pak has no research----there are no quality phd's in pakistan in a large number---quality of workmanship is okay not par excellence---ideas---when you don't have open access to labs to do your thing, where do the ideas come from---there is no money for research---.

So---what does pak millitary do---they have made a decision based on their abilities---they have decided to put their egos aside and be realistic---they have decided to ride piggy back---in this wonderful world of high technology, it has been decided and agreed upon that financially and educationally less fortunate nations may enjoy on the success of well off nations and earn the right to partially use it for their personal use if they agree to buy it. In the due process of time, they can also modify it to their advantage with permission.

Once this issue has been resolved and agreed upon, it is not fruitfull to further discuss this issue any more---we need to move ahead---we cannot be arguing about all the time---it gets us bogged down, which ends in time and resource wastage.

The issue over here is not of beggars can't be chosers---that is the way the business is run nowadays.

The world of high technology is a smorgasbord of indigenious ideas---there is a place and room for everyone to pick and choose their alliances and move ahead.