France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

[MastanKhan]

To those fools following this thread.

India paid France $3.6 billion to upgrade its 52 mirage2000 fighters.

2.4 billion for the upgrade & a separate deal of $1.2 billion for weapons

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade

Over $40 million per plane

YES FRENCH HAVE AMAZING systems.

And the THUNDER lacks cutting edge radars EW suites & missles BUT what will cost ???????

AND DO YOU HAVE THE FINANCE TO PAY OVER $40 MILION EACH PER JET.

And know you wont be getting it done on the cheap

" This is why I am 99% certain this deal is either fake news or wilol just collap[se like it did in 2011

Hi,

Buddy---the cost of re-conditioning is different than what the JF 17 would need. In refurbishing---you start from scratch and rebuild every thing to new status and upgrade the electronics including the engine.

That is not needed for the JF 17---. It does not need structural refurbishment--it would use electronics package which is a much much cheaper option.

 

[flameboard]

only for France to ditch once India comes back to the table?

 

[That Guy]

You are contradicting yourself -
"The reason why Pakistan didn't get Mirage-2000 was because Pakistan didn't have the type before. "
Why would Pakistan try to acquire them from UAE ?

I didn't say Pakistan would acquire them from the UAE, I said that France would not object to the sale. There is a difference here. Don't try and tu quoque me here.

The UAE F-16 are at higher avionics block than the ones the PAF has. You have not shown any valid information that USA will approve it

It seems like you're ignoring what I'm saying. I didn't say that Pakistan would go for UAE F-16s, but there is plenty of evidence to show that the USA would approve a sale to Pakistan. F-16 block 52s avionics are some of the most advanced in the world and not too different from the block 60, yet the US didn't block any sales and upgrades for them. Why would they do so for the F-16 block 60? Plus, do you even know what avionics are? There are far more important things in a fighter than the avionics that US would be worried about.

You're being ridiculous. There is no debate here, no drama. Stop trying to pass your ridiculous assumptions off as facts, and STOP trying to strawman me.

 

[Viper0011.]

Let us go over your points one by one

1. You are making a blanket statement here
" Let's see, KSA (one of the largest weapons purchaser / importer in the world right now), won't buy anything air worthy from Russia or China. "

Saudi Arabia has purchased intermediate range ballistic missiles from China. This was during the 1980s. Why would they not do business ?
China–Saudi Arabia relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

UAE, Jordan have ordered state of the art SAM systems from Russia
Pantsir-S1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China and Russia miss a chance to improve their relations with Saudi Arabia ?

"There are many European countries like Serbia, Lithuania, Greece, etc, who were Russian friendly during the times of the Eastern Europe.....but now with the European Union in place, life's changed for Russia, and has become a LOT more difficult, (if you don't follow the news)."

2. Let us go over the case of smaller European countries.

Lithuania will order American equipment to stay on the good graces of Uncle Sam. Greek air force is completely Western aircraft. Serbia has no air force.

What makes you think some of these smaller European countries cannot build their own cheap aircraft ? Serbia has high quality engineers to build their own aircraft. They have better access to Western technology if they do not involve Pakistan or China. Czech Republic makes the L-39/L-159 jet trainers.

" Next, there are thousands of Mig's and F4/5's and Chinese versions of jets like the F-7, etc, which need replacements. And not all countries can buy the later 3rd Gen or 4th Gen jets, and not many countries offer high end BVR missile and JDAM, ASM, JSOW type capability in the price tag you can get a new JFT for, with said capabilities. So you don't need thousands of JFT's sold and no one's said that. But mere 500-1000 overall sold, long term, is very much doable, and enough to change the Pakistani aviation industry to a much higher and advanced levels. The profits from sold jets will be used for further r&d and in coming up with newer platforms."

the whole idea of selling jf-17 to 3rd countries has been around for 5+ years. i have not seen a single deal done.

Oh the itch to prove yourself right and MUST respond to every argument whether you write Oranges to prove Apples wrong or act like Bananas are the new Cucumbers!!!

1) KSA bought missiles from China because no one would sell them missiles and they were concerned with the Israelis. If the US or the French had offered them missiles, TRUST ME, they would've not bought CANDY from China, let alone military systems.

2) KSA air force's doctrine, processes and training is based on the US system. Their technicians are trained on the US system. Acquiring a sub-standard Chinese or Russian system has no value to them. They get the top notch weapons systems from the US, always a notch below what the US herself operates. Why would you go elsewhere and acquire a lower end system? I'll leave this at that.

3) UAE, Turkey, etc, have ordered SAM systems from Russia. That is because Russia makes good SAM systems. Not JETS. Plus, 10 SAM batteries covering an entire country like the UAE...cost less than ONE squadron of -16's block 60. So go figure. Also, the reason behind buying these SAMS from the Russians was that these guys are always concerned about Israel and they think that Israelis may have the ability to fool the American SAM systems as they themselves use them. So they acquired Russian systems for "peace of mind", not because the US or Western systems weren't available to them.

4) Pakistan just offered Bulgaria JFT's, Nigeria is negotiating, Venezuela is discussing it, Saudia will buy some, even for training or to form mid-tier (when and if the French option will come into existence). What makes you think Serbia Lithuania, and other won't buy it? Pakistanis have a preferential trade agreement with the EU right now for the next few years. So a lot can happen.

5) Whether you are "hearing" about JFT's exports for 5 years or 10.....it doesn't really matter. It will happen when the time comes. One thing about the Chinese (and the Pakistanis, and something India overcame through the US's help) is that, you all don't know how to present to others. How to make something so appealing that the other party wants to buy it. Half the sale is presentation, irrespective of the capability as majority of 4th gen planes offer similar capabilities, albeit different price tags.

So IMO, Pakistan or China should have NEVER gone marketing the JFT without a dual seater option. That was one stupid idea. Not every single air force is as professional as the USAF or the Israelis or the Pakistanis where they can learn to fly a plane through using just some simulators.
But that's been rectified now with a twin seat version. Plus add French avionics, engines and missiles and Russian RD-93MA option for some countries; you can bet your money on it, you'll see the JFT flying with many different flags on. There is no doubt, timing and sales pitch is the only thing requiring maturity!

 

[Taygibay]

In fact, Pakistani mirage ROSE fighters are arguably the most advanced versions of the type in the world, mostly thanks to France helping Pakistan upgrade it's fleet.

I still believe in a Rose III improvement based on French stuff which is why I am following this thread at all …
and this "deal" if real. is a perfect fit.
If it happens it will be safe to say that the last ones in Pakistan,
( the only other user Argentina is letting them sit and … you know … Looking to the Thunder?!!? )


those will had been the best variant ever!
Simply the jump in the main radar area itself warrants that.

France reputed for those who know us to make our military equipment last its full run ( aka budget grrrrrr ),
have let go of a plane the pilots liked for the F1 in 2005. That 7 years later, your ( PDF after all ) birds are not finished improving is a testament of how those birds were treated.
You know, when politics have gone : the receiving AF is just happy if it works better than the last one / and / plane makers ( below the Board level ) personel is darn proud of that aircraft he or she hoped create that can still face combat duty after they themselves have retired??? They don't pack groceries ( no disrespect of any manual labor intended ) they design uber-fighter jets?

As for the Qatari 2000-5, I'd rather understand if the PAF said no. Once again, the Mirage still performs so that a different type modern but somewhat depleted of flying life,not multi-role with the RDM? Qatar bought a kid's like 12, a mere box of eggs? Pakistan got 18 + 64 = 82 from Dassault , 50 M III from OZ, 40 from France, 24 Spanish and 9 from the home of the cedar, Lebanon. As numbers wane in the Armée de L'Air you became the biggest operator, either right before or after the 2k mark by the Gregorian calendar.

The only two drawbacks to Mirage III in PAF so far are that the top use was by Israel in the Six Days war with more than 10+ sorties a DAY per flocking plane which is ridiculous probably a jet record to the Japanese and more so Americans, proper legends of the Pacific war part of WWII ( Helldiver and Dauntless [ Oh, the Avenger! ] era with barrel bodies but with planes like this ( my favorite ) by the end :
Asisbiz Vought F4U-4 Corsair CVG-19 VF-192 CV-37 USS Princeton


I'd also really have to give the Swiss the best photo prize :

Dassault Mirage IIIS

Like a sacred Golden script on your Green cloth?

The important thing is that if a tool is not worth caring for , It's likely not a very good one?
I never balked at cleaning / caring for my gun or trowel or bike ( cars when necessary ) nor kids ( nor even wife ) nor people in general.
Be proud when it's earned, good people, le Mirage III is already a success story in Pakisan.

GN all, Tay.

 

[The SC]

This news is believable but it has more to do with India then Pakistan. The French will not sell Pakistan anything unless the deal with India is 100 percent dead.

Or 100% secured. What can India do after that in both cases?

 

[KIND]

France can go and sell all they can but I seriously doubt Pakistan going to pay for all what it needs from France. India would be stupid to fall in the blackmail tactics.Once you get trapped never gonna get out. even if you do, you will loose respect.

 

[airmarshal]

To those fools following this thread.

India paid France $3.6 billion to upgrade its 52 mirage2000 fighters.

2.4 billion for the upgrade & a separate deal of $1.2 billion for weapons

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade

Over $40 million per plane

YES FRENCH HAVE AMAZING systems.

And the THUNDER lacks cutting edge radars EW suites & missles BUT what will cost ???????

AND DO YOU HAVE THE FINANCE TO PAY OVER $40 MILION EACH PER JET.

And know you wont be getting it done on the cheap

" This is why I am 99% certain this deal is either fake news or wilol just collap[se like it did in 2011

Indian baniyaa always quoting the prices. Showing the level of sophistication (or the lack of it) in making an argument. Just shows its a nouveau riche class who likes to flaunt money when there is no need for it.

 

[Storm Force]

Simple fact boys.

One mica bvr costs1.7 million each.

Ten times what you pay for your sd10. From china.

You are the biggest importer of chinease arms. In the world.

Why cause they are cheap

No matter how you dress it up upgrading the thunder to a French standard is serious serious money...

And to master khan India paid over 1.2,billion for French missles and bombs alone.

Twice the cost of the Thunder entire development cost

 

[wiseone2]

I didn't say Pakistan would acquire them from the UAE, I said that France would not object to the sale. There is a difference here. Don't try and tu quoque me here.


It seems like you're ignoring what I'm saying. I didn't say that Pakistan would go for UAE F-16s, but there is plenty of evidence to show that the USA would approve a sale to Pakistan. F-16 block 52s avionics are some of the most advanced in the world and not too different from the block 60, yet the US didn't block any sales and upgrades for them. Why would they do so for the F-16 block 60? Plus, do you even know what avionics are? There are far more important things in a fighter than the avionics that US would be worried about.

You're being ridiculous. There is no debate here, no drama. Stop trying to pass your ridiculous assumptions off as facts, and STOP trying to strawman me.

France and USA would object to the sale/transfer of advanced avionics. Even India which is throwing billions of dollars at some of these deals has difficulty getting them

Oh the itch to prove yourself right and MUST respond to every argument whether you write Oranges to prove Apples wrong or act like Bananas are the new Cucumbers!!!

3) UAE, Turkey, etc, have ordered SAM systems from Russia. That is because Russia makes good SAM systems. Not JETS. Plus, 10 SAM batteries covering an entire country like the UAE...cost less than ONE squadron of -16's block 60. So go figure. Also, the reason behind buying these SAMS from the Russians was that these guys are always concerned about Israel and they think that Israelis may have the ability to fool the American SAM systems as they themselves use them. So they acquired Russian systems for "peace of mind", not because the US or Western systems weren't available to them.

4) Pakistan just offered Bulgaria JFT's, Nigeria is negotiating, Venezuela is discussing it, Saudia will buy some, even for training or to form mid-tier (when and if the French option will come into existence). What makes you think Serbia Lithuania, and other won't buy it? Pakistanis have a preferential trade agreement with the EU right now for the next few years. So a lot can happen.

5) Whether you are "hearing" about JFT's exports for 5 years or 10.....it doesn't really matter. It will happen when the time comes. One thing about the Chinese (and the Pakistanis, and something India overcame through the US's help) is that, you all don't know how to present to others. How to make something so appealing that the other party wants to buy it. Half the sale is presentation, irrespective of the capability as majority of 4th gen planes offer similar capabilities, albeit different price tags.

So IMO, Pakistan or China should have NEVER gone marketing the JFT without a dual seater option. That was one stupid idea. Not every single air force is as professional as the USAF or the Israelis or the Pakistanis where they can learn to fly a plane through using just some simulators.
But that's been rectified now with a twin seat version. Plus add French avionics, engines and missiles and Russian RD-93MA option for some countries; you can bet your money on it, you'll see the JFT flying with many different flags on. There is no doubt, timing and sales pitch is the only thing requiring maturity!

I dunno know Turkey's motivations on purchasing the Russian SAMs. Greece got S-300 from Russia a while ago. In the case of UAE they might be buying Russian SAMs to induce Russia not to sell advanced weapons to Iran.

Have a preferential trade agreement does not help with military weapon sales. I gave clear reasons why any European country won't purchase JF-17

some of them have and prefer a close relationship with America. F-16 is the logical choice. F-16 is not expensive. Lithuania would be a perfect candidate. If Lithuania was cash strapped America would not mind giving them a few surplus F-16s from their inventory.

a lot of European countries have the capacity to design a low end 4th generation fighter especially if they purchase key components like jet engines from America, UK or France. they will pursue this option if they are really cash strapped.

Offering Bulgaria is one thing. Will the Bulgarians even consider it ?

the only logical candidates for the JF-17 are cash rich regimes that have burnt their relationships with the West.
If i am a buyer my first question on the JF-17 is why is PLAAF not inducting it.

 

[Paksanity]

Simple fact boys.

One mica bvr costs1.7 million each.

Ten times what you pay for your sd10. From china.

You are the biggest importer of chinease arms. In the world.

Why cause they are cheap

No matter how you dress it up upgrading the thunder to a French standard is serious serious money...

And to master khan India paid over 1.2,billion for French missles and bombs alone.

Twice the cost of the Thunder entire development cost

We have money for French avionics. France has long standing standing defence ties with PAF. They will react sharply if India tries to become Veto holder on their defence deals, especially if it involves just a few avionics. India needs Western Defence items more than they need Indian money.

 

[salarsikander]

some Indian posters are really butthurt, poor souls

 

[Storm Force]

This topic will be ending in the same fashion as

Paf purchase of ft20000 Sam system

J10b purchase

Purchase of uae mirage2000 fighters

And the paf buying j31,ten years before it sees entry into plaaf.

No offence boys but Pakistanis start threads with no official links just somebodys fantasy in the forum .

It's a trend that has existed for years.

People just make things up.

 

[wiseone2]

We have money for French avionics. France has long standing standing defence ties with PAF. They will react sharply if India tries to become Veto holder on their defence deals, especially if it involves just a few avionics. India needs Western Defence items more than they need Indian money.

Getting state of the art components is not easy. countries are not going to give it up. pakistan has a triple black mark given your association with Islamic militancy, nuclear proliferation deals and China.

The Grifo radar Pakistan has on its aircraft is not installed on any Western aircraft except F-5.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Good going. Start discussions and proceed for some more time. When you are about to turn a corner, we will torpedo it . Whether you guys get the avoincs or not, soyabean to zarror milega,going by our past track record

Not happening, the industry sources may not be wrong but the French are lying through their teeth to pressure India to sign the deal. Regardless, the PAF is happy with the current Radar and Avionics fit so essentially its just a gambit for India to be gullible and chew upon rather than anything to do with the JF-17s local prospects.
The idea may have been floated for Egypt and its interest in the Aircraft, nothing to do with Pakistan.. but that does mean France cant have next door going like a pouty girl.

An extremely intelligent post