FATA Situation

[MrConcerned]

All the groups that Pakistan used to attack and try to control other countries are rebounding in our faces. All Muslims, all Pakistanis, all murderous.

Suicide bomber held in Chakwal
Thursday, January 17, 2008


CHAKWAL: The Chakwal police said on Wednesday that they had arrested a suicide bomber and seized eight kilogrammes of explosive material and other bomb devices from him.

Chakwal District Police Officer Maqsood Khan told a press conference here that police, on a tip-off, raided a house in the village of Thoha Mehram Khan and arrested Abdul Ghafoor. “Ghafoor has confessed to have had a plan to kill former Punjab chief minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi and Chakwal District Nazim Sardar Ghulam Abbas at a public meeting that was to be held in Talagang,” the DPO said, adding that the meeting had been postponed in the wake of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto’s killing in Rawalpindi.

Maqsood said Ghafoor and his companions were now planning to attack Muharram processions in Chakwal and Talagang. He said 23-year-old Ghafoor was a member of the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Harkatul Mujahideen. “He also has links with the terrorist group that attacked a Pakistan Air Force bus in Sargodha last year,” the DPO said. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20081\17\story_17-1-2008_pg7_29

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All the groups that Pakistan used to attack and try to control other countries are rebounding in our faces. All Muslims, all Pakistanis, all murderous.

While you raise legitimate points - lets not oversimplify the issue. Like many other nations, including the US, Pakistan chose a particular course of action to protect its interests and bring stability to a war ravaged country run by cruel and brutal warlords who operated mini-fiefdoms. There is no need to harp on what was done as if we are the only nation in the world to have acted in what at the time was perceived to be our "national interest".

Your criticism about the nothing response in the face of the atrocities being committed is completely valid though.

The recent attacks seem to have the makings of a Taliban campaign now. Quite similar to what Fazlullah did in Swat. Town after town fell to him until finally the Army had enough. At this point a repeat of Swat seems optimistic though.

 

[ejaz007]

There is no denying that the situation is serious however it is not as grim as projected. In the present circumstances I believe that army shall first clear Swat and adjoining areas of militants and then shall move to Fata. In the meantime they shall try to maintain the status quo through FC. Only army role at the moment shall be air support and after things settle down at Swat then Army shall move in.
The point worth mentioning is that it is not important whether the Taliban are Pakistani Taliban or Afghani Taliban they are Taliban (according to them) and we have to deal with them and deal in such a manner that they do not dare challenge writ of the government in future.

 

[roadrunner]

You are talking rubbish by making a fine distinction between Pakistani Taliban and Afghan Taliban, who by their own definition do not recognize the border.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm making a big, huge, enormous distinction even thicker than your head Mr Ostrich! The Pakistani Taliban and the Afghani Taliban may not recognize the border, but they sure as hell are not going to vacate one tribal area to fight in another rival tribal area in Afghanistan, or vica versa.

So many Pakistani Taliban have been captured within Afghanistan it is not funny. You think that NATO is enraged about nothing?

Provide some solid evidence that Pakistani Taliban have been captured within Afghanistan on any medium to large-scale. I doubt very much whether you'll even find it's true they've been captured on a small scale. What has occurred, Mr Ostrich, is that Afghani refugees have been paid to cross the border out of Pakistani refugee camps to go fight in Afghanistan. These are AFGHANI nationals, not Pakistani ones. You try and find any credible reports of the Afghani Taliban committing suicide bombings in Pakistan and post them. You'll not find a lot for sure, because your argument is WRONG simply

I don't have time now but may I just point out, since you've been so rude, that ostriches like you and Musharaff are solely responsible for the slaughter of FC soldiers and the state of Pakistan today.

Aside from the fact that ostriches have better aerial viewpoints (and aside from getting all childish that someone called you a name, poor lad), you might want to consider that none of the tribes want any presence of paramilitary forces or (unwelcome) "invaders" into the autonomous regions. If there was no WoT going on, the paramilitary forces would still be being attacked for simply being in that area. I suggest fanning yourself vigorously to prevent overheating of the all important brain cell while you try and understand this point.

As for the state of Pakistan today..it's much better than it was a decade ago, and a lot better than it was at Partition. So, if you would prefer a backward regression as opposed to the progression that has occurred, then i'm afraid your Ostrich title must be taken away

 

[mujahideen]

I think the situation is FATA has gotten out of control and something needs to be done about it. As we saw in Swat the Army cleared the place of militants. In my opinion the Army was just testing and training its forces during this operation. They wanted to see what the militants have and what their soldiers have. All of the indications are pointing towards a big operation in FATA, and I believe this will happen with in the next 6-9 months. Another factor we often forget is that the Army is not operating in FATA. These terrorists attacked the F.C. which is a paramilitary force. They F.C. and the Army are two different organizations. The difference is the F.C. contains all locals from the Frontier, though the are led by senior Army officers, they dont have the same weapons as the Army, they dont get the same training and their are other things which seperates them from the Army. Now what we saw in Swat was the Army. We saw how they swept the place and if they are called out in FATA the same thing will be repeated. I just hope the terrorists realize what they are up against and surrender before the are wiped out.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Mr Concerned,

There is no distinction between the Taliban and the generic ideology they follow.

However, it is an embarrassment that the Frankenstein created by Pakistan through the good offices of Zia and the ISI, and funded and equipped liberally by the US and CIA, should visit Pakistan and rip its very social, ideological and religious fabric and its internal integrity as a Nation and come back to haunt.

Why it is happening is another question and for another thread.

There are those who cannot reconcile with this monumental disaster. It has the intensity of salt being rubbed on the wounds! Hence, they orphan the Taliban and slither around the morass giving dubious distinctions that only coils around them and bites back.

Overnight, the Afghan Mujahideens who vanquished a super power and acclaimed as Islamic heroes are today being cast away as pariahs!

It is a fallacy to believe that those who fought in Afghanistan were only Afghans! There were Arabs and others too. Would it be logical that Pakistan, which was in the vanguard of this fight, would sit back pretty and let others take away its thunder? Would the ISI, Zia or Pakistanis accept that this jihad would be merely a 'foreign fighters' and Afghan show, when all the organisation and hard work was theirs, including the burden of managing the refugees that was paying a heavy toll on Pakistan's economy and social fabric?

It is only the blind who claim that there were and are no Pakistanis in the Taliban organisation, and that they recognise the sanctity of the Durand Line, wqhenin actuality they go merrily against whosoever is the flavour of the moment!

Hoodbhoy's article on the state of denial of these type of people which was published in IHT should be read.

It is mere intellectual dishonesty to flip flop and attempt to confuse all and in the bargain, they confuse themselves and tie themselves up in knots.

It is intellectual dishonesty and an attempt to obfuscate and live in a world of self denial. It also indicates how ill read some are.

In the "Bear Trap" (page 113), Brig Md Yusouf, who was the Head of the Afghan Bureau of the ISI, under the chapter, "Training and Tactics" writes,"...I know for certain that we at ISI were sending Pakistani military personnel into Afghanistan from 1981 through 1986. I know it because it was a part of my job to select the individuals and brief them as to their tasks.....

If the Pakistani Army finds it strategically serious enough to send their own personnel, would they object to Pakistani civilians from joining the jehad? Or is it that the Pakistani Pathans, by upbringing and mental make up, would shy away from their Islamic task? The pysche of Pathans belie that line of thought. If Arabs and others can join the fight for Islam, then are these people (naysayers) suggesting that Pakistani Moslems and that too the Pashtuns, who have ethnic and family ties, would sit back scared and thumb their prayer beads alone?

If that was so, then they would still be counting their prayer beads and not attack the Pakistani Army and the para military, be they Pashtuns or other Pakistanis!

It is those who are blind to the faults in the system and it is those who are afraid to face the truth are the people who are doing the greatest disservice to Pakistan, as has been correctly said in one of Mastan Kahn's posts!

I will leave it at that.

One wonders who is the Ostrich!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Mr Concerned,

While it does appear worrisome that the Forts are being given up without a fight and more importantly, with military hardware, it is worth considering if it is but a systemic fault or whether there is more to it.

Paramilitary forces, on lone border outposts, with hardly anything to do, when are suddenly confronted with real life situations of combat, tend to get confused and scared. This is because the leisurely life eked out earlier, makes them forget all the basic military training that they ever had been subjected to.

When the Punjab Armed Police formed the core of our BSF, they were somewhat similar. They were so cool that when my CO asked a fat Havildar post commander (who was under command) to give the landmarks, he was hilarious! My CO insisted that he cut out his "Kahabbe wekh" and "Shajje wekh" and instead "ghari ke istamal karo" (using the clock ray for landmark indication). This fat Havildar very solemly looked his watch and told the CO very innocently, "Khabbe dekh", 3 baj gaya hai (it was 3 o'çlock by his watch) , chinar ke darkht". Now, what can such people deliver in terms of military action? Fortunately, over the years, the practical on hands training has made them a totally different force! I am sure the FC, will become an organisation that you would feel good about. It takes time. I am aware that Pakistan does not have the time, but there is no other options.

It is actually very difficult times for Pakistan. On the one hand, they cannot denude the Indo Pak border for obvious reasons and on the other, they cannot deploy larger strength than what Pakistan can milk out of other places. The paramilitaries have to be used. Maybe, if these forts have a mix of the Army and beef it up with FC, they would not be scared to take on the Taliban.

 

[JK!]

Forts are colonial relics and can easily be taken apart with a few RPGs.

In such a circumstance it really is best to retreat and live to fight another day.

 

[fatman17]

we have to be careful how we qualify these reports. the PA is not manning the border forts only the most sensitive ones along the border with afghanistan. remote forts are manned by the FC and the militants are only attacking these obscure forts knowing well that re-inforcements will take time to get to these forts. further they have been pushed out of swat into the hills and snow bound mountains. this is their retaliation for what the PA has done to them in swat.
maybe now with US assistance which is forthcoming, we can mould the FC into a fighting force instead of lazy boder guards whose only worthwhile job is to harass un-armed border crossers.
the key issue now for the PA is to go after baitullah mehsud, the leader of the militants along the border areas. he has to be defeated to deflate their agressive designs.

 

[MrConcerned]

Please note that I am completely against any unilateral action by the Americans. It is completely against our sovereignity and not acceptable surely.

However, it is a pain point to me that people here will tolerate 'unilateral actions' (to say the least) by the Mehsud tribe and their extremist allies.

Every day we send out new messages. We send out a message to the West that we are the only nuclear nation in the grip of armed groups who are seeking a totalitarian revolution in the country. We send out a message to China that our partnership as a transit country is over. We send out a message to the Arabs that we can barely keep a grip on the security situation in the country, and we're supposed to be the most powerful Muslim country, when even the likes of Jordan have crushed rebels? We send out a message, lastly, to India, whether they act on it or not, that, at the very least, a large chunk of our military is not capable of integrated operations and that another large chunk are not even equipped enough for internal security. We are sending out all sorts of wrong messages.

To stop other countries meddling in our situation, the first thing is not to shout your face off and threaten them, which is missing the point anyway, but give them no serious cause to comment. You cannot say your neighbouring countries or people you are 'allies' with or people who give development aid cannot comment when 1000 rebels attack within your country and overrun military establishments. Pakistan is not an African country and should not tolerate this.

How can we work with NATO? If we're worried about the aggressive Americans, surely there is another partner within NATO, say even Turkey, who can give us some impetus in this area? We definitely do not need their strength but surely we need some sort of clarity from them.

Insurgenies, especially extremist ones, have a nasty way of spiralling out of control, when they draw new recruits due to the perceived success of their actions. Opportunists, global Al Qaeda funding, the loyalty-weak tribesmen have a way of prising open a weak point once identified.

And of course the weapons of NATO loom over us all.

 

[roadrunner]

If anyone were to be "obfuscating" and flip-flopping (perhaps wearing them), it would be you, Salim. If I recall, several of your posts were a poor attempt at twisting the truth with misinformation about what I said (claiming there are no Pakistani Taliban which I sure never did). However, your above post is indicative of desperation in your bid to try and prove something which does not exist, and once again a poor attempt at something I did not say (here's a hint, twisting truth won't work with someone whose English reading capablity is as good or better than your own, despite however much an false expert in misinformation you believe yourself to be).

Now read this bit carefully, so I don't need to repeat it again and again. Your post, your book reference are from the 1980s, during the Soviet-Afghan war. It is and was admitted by all parties that Pakistani Army were to a degree part of the resistance, and even right up till some of the initial Taliban clashes with NATO, there were Pakistani military personnel on the ground in Afghanistan. The TRIBES, and this is something you don't seem to be able to understand, have never vacated their homelands to go and fight in any war in another country, or their own. Military personnel have of course. This is one of the reasons for the existence of two completely separate groups of people, the Pakistani Taliban, and the Afghani Taliban. Neither side really trusts each other enough, and neither would want to be swamped out by the other one because it's a tribal thing. If you are still incapable of understanding this, ask a 5 year old to explain it to you. It's very straightforward, and i don't have the time nowadays.

 

[IceCold]

Whenever i see a video on the TV about the operation going on, there is one thing that disturbs me to hell, seeing only one or at most just two gunships hovering around. Are we that short in this category? Because if we are then thats a serious lack on our part. How can we provide an effective cover to our ground troops by just one or two gunships?
Anyhow its just my two cents, Fatman sir can perhaps shed some more light on to the matter.

 

[MrConcerned]

Even Musharaff agrees that the Afghan Taliban have sanctuaries within Pakistan.

I don't see what you're quibbling about. Uzbeks, are they 'Pakistani' Taliban too? If they can be in Pakistan fighting for the 'Pakistani Taliban', why can't Afghans?

Your dream world is shattering into a million pieces a little more every time you try to deny the obvious.

These people are not there for the borders. You just wish to deny that Pakistan is creating trouble for Afghanistan, which Pakistan is. And vice versa, as well.

 

[Spring Onion]

Mr Concerned,

There is no distinction between the Taliban and the generic ideology they follow.!

Yes if asked from an Indian like you Sir Ray who even dosnt know that there is no such thing as Pakistani Afghan or Afghan Pakistani, than indeed there is no distinction betwee Taliban.

Otherwise there is a big difference between Taliban on our side and Taliban On Afghanistan Side.
If anyone has noticed on Afghanistan Side the NATO even has stopped using word Taliban rather they are use The Term "Anti-Coalition forces" for those who are fighting against NATO in Afghanistan, instead of using word Taliban.

Do you even know what does Taliban Means???

A student of a Madrassa is called Talib and its plural is Taliban means more than one student.

Now here on Pakistan Side all those who are students of Madrassas are called Taliban.
When once there was tension in Bajaur, some students from a madrassa who were trying to escap the shelling knocked at a door of a house and asked for water and food calling themselves Taliban.
Now would you call them Taliban similar to those fighting in Afghanistan.
The Pakistani Taliban are far different than those fighting in Afghanistan.

There are elements who are with Arab and Uzbeks who are fighting against the forces and government just beacuse Pakistan Army is about to eleminate them forever, Now assocciated these people with common Taliban is in no way fair.

Only those are fighting against army who are in a fix after sesning that there would be no place for them to hide and fool innocent people.

However, it is an embarrassment that the Frankenstein created by Pakistan through the good offices of Zia and the ISI, and funded and equipped liberally by the US and CIA, should visit Pakistan and rip its very social, ideological and religious fabric and its internal integrity as a Nation and come back to haunt.
coils around them and bites back.!

You also know the reality and roots of it.

As far embarrassment indeed it is.
Whenever US tried to formulate long-term plans (indeed flawed ones) it had used Pakistan as proxy and the desparate US policy makers come up with ideas that at the end hunt Pakistan as well as US.

This time too US had made a mess, its another matter that Pakistan has realised now though at a heavy Cost but we are clearing the mess within Pakistan.
Though i believe all the pressurez and pressurizing tactics evert tom dick and herry is using against Pakistan just to cover up own foolies and baffle own
citizens will not going to do any good for good American people.

Its time the Amrican people should have some say in and question the policies that are made and run through their hard-earn money.

It is a fallacy to believe that those who fought in Afghanistan were only Afghans! There were Arabs and others too. Would it be logical that Pakistan, which was in the vanguard of this fight, would sit back pretty and let others take away its thunder? Would the ISI, Zia or Pakistanis accept that this jihad would be merely a 'foreign fighters' and Afghan show, when all the organisation and hard work was theirs, including the burden of managing the refugees that was paying a heavy toll on Pakistan's economy and social fabric?!
It is only the blind who claim that there were and are no Pakistanis in the Taliban organisation, and that they recognise the sanctity of the Durand Line, wqhenin actuality they go merrily against whosoever is the flavour of the moment!

Who is denying that there were no other people in Afghanistan in 80s fighting USSR. All those who fought in Afghanistan spilled over to Pakistan creating mess for us after US abondoned them defeating USSR.

As far recognising the sanctity of the Durand Line, yes the Taliban do so and even the Pashtuns its only after a dog fed by India came to sit on President Seat that too as a puppet some of the other Paltoos from Northern Alliance tried to stire the issue and we all know who can be havin stomach pain to start that.

!

Hoodbhoy's article on the state of denial of these type of people which was published in IHT should be read.!

reading hoodbhoy, Aysha Siddiqa, daily times, or Ayaz Mir is the same indeed Indian like them very much because they let go no opportunity to spit venom against Pakistan.

!

The pysche of Pathans belie that line of thought. If Arabs and others can join the fight for Islam, then are these people (naysayers) suggesting that Pakistani Moslems and that too the Pashtuns, who have ethnic and family ties, would sit back scared and thumb their prayer beads alone?!

here we go again so how do u claim to know the pysche of Pashtuns??????????

And despite ethnic and family ties they do not cross over to Afghanistan to fight there NOW even the Pashtuns now try to avoid going to Afghanistan for business due to incident of Kidnapping by war lords there for ransome and some times even these F.ilthy warlords handover the poor Pakistanis to NATO and India terming them as Terrorists against heavy money.
In the past when US attacked Afghanistan, thousands of Pashtuns were lured by Sufi Muhammad to fight against the attackers to save Afghanistan and we all know that they went there not beacuase of ethnic ties or family ties but to fight for protecting a Muslim land.
And we all know this too how these Pakistani Pashtuns were roasted alive in containers by the notorious war criminals War lord Dostam and Northern Alliance.
The genocide of Pashtuns done right under the nose of US and NATO.
Those who lost relatives and sons in that incident still recall the horor and now no one send their kins or relatives to fight in Afghanistan.

Rather after knowint the motives of Al-qaeda the Pashtuns in FATA are fighting against them and driving them out.


!

If that was so, then they would still be counting their prayer beads and not attack the Pakistani Army and the para military, be they Pashtuns or other Pakistanis!!

And who told you that a handful of miscreants represent all Pashtuns ??????????????
That too when Afghanistan has become free for all intellegence agencies.
The Mosad, RAW, KGB< CIA you name and all are in Afghanistan at the moment.
and the only thing all these are doing to destabalise Pakistan by creating, fundng and executing blasts to engage Pakistan withing and take advantage in Afghanistan to accomplish own plans.

 

[roadrunner]

Even Musharaff agrees that the Afghan Taliban have sanctuaries within Pakistan.

No he doesn't actually, he has admitted that Afghani nationals are paid off in Pakistani refugee camps to go fight for the Taliban in Afghanistan. He's closing most of these camps now. These are not Pakistani Taliban once again.

I don't see what you're quibbling about. Uzbeks, are they 'Pakistani' Taliban too? If they can be in Pakistan fighting for the 'Pakistani Taliban', why can't Afghans?

Uzbeks are not part of the Pakistani Taliban MrUninformed.

Your dream world is shattering into a million pieces a little more every time you try to deny the obvious.

I'm very clear in what I say, and haven't changed argument one bit except in that overworked, confused brain cell of yours. Denial, it seems, is more a description of your claims that "so many Pakistani Taliban have been caught in Afghanistan". Delusions or wet dreams!

These people are not there for the borders. You just wish to deny that Pakistan is creating trouble for Afghanistan, which Pakistan is. And vice versa, as well.

Pakistan is not creating trouble for Afghanistan. Pakistan previously supported the Afghan Pashtuns, and this p!ssed off quite a few Tajiks, which is one of the reasons for their (and your) distaste of Pakistan and its government.