FATA Situation

[blain2]

god i'm so sick of these militants don't they ever get tired of the fighting and suicide bombings ?? pak army is just so soft on them showing the enemy how weak they are which why they're so bold to keep attacking ! everytime something like this happens they try and make some sort of peace deal and go to tribal jirgas and the militants carry on roaming freely only to attack again.
They need to put their foot down and do something extreme what the hell is the PAF doing ?? they need to go and bomb the crap out these people .I guess this could be a good opportunity for an attack hundreds gathered in one place maybe send a cruise missile in there take out all of them at once or starve them out then beat the sh!t out of them plz no mercy anymore !

Khanz,

Imagine having nothing else to do but rolling in gangs of other youth who love firearms and acting tough. Mix this with guidance from Mullahs who say that anything you do is jihad and you are getting reward for it and if you die then you are a shaheed. On top of that, you see the invasion of Afghanistan as wrong and the struggle against the occupation as a just cause. On top of that, you see the Pakistan Army and paramilitary stopping you from supporting your fellow pashtuns across the border in Afghanistan as acting on behalf of the US.

Add to this all the loss of life and property around you in which people of your tribe, village or family are impacted..after that, what is to be your reaction given there is no dearth of weapons?...you will do what comes easy and naturally to you which is to go and kill someone from the government side and currently there are elements who want to use you for this task....so when you put all this together, you get an idea as to who and where these people are coming from.

On top of that, you also have to think about the tribal connections in Pakistan. Currently the government is pitched against what is perceived to be a Mehsud resistance. Mehsuds, like Wazirs and many other Pashtun tribes, are integrated into the Pakistani society, government and armed forces. So you cannot simply wipe out a whole bunch of these people with massive firepower. There would be resistance within the government and even in the armed forces against these type of actions (rightfully so too).

Firepower alone cannot resolve this problem. You will have to suffer casualties, use force in a measured way and then give these folks incentives and that is the only way you will get beyond this problem. The fact that US occupation goes on in Afghanistan, none of the above that I have mentioned are guaranteed to provide the solution unfortunately, otherwise this problem has been controlled in the past when Afghanistan was not a mess.

 

[MrConcerned]

The usual denier tactic:

1. Deny something like this is happening.
2. Deny it will get worse.
3. Say it's the fault of India.
4. Say it's the fault of USA.
5. Say it's the fault of da jewsssss

Seriously, some of you are not worth the naan you eat. You're supposed to represent the thinking set of Pakistan, and Mehsud has shown more intelligence than most of you.

USA never funded the Arabs in Afghanistan. They funded the Afghans and Pakistani fighters, who were paid by ISI anyway.

The problem was when USA left, we continued to meddle in the country, using religious extremists to fight for and control the country because we thought they were the easiest to control. Then of course we used some of them against India.

and now that the whole thing is blowing up in our faces, the policymakers continue to try to leverage them as future cards, ignoring the disintegration of the country's borders and with the President too busy setting his troops on civil society.

It's always been the fault of Pakistan's policy makers. Look at how they lied about BB's death - what amateurish behavior. Or lied about the 300 soldiers who surrendered to the Taliban. The government lacks integrity.

Think of it this way, if there were really no Taliban in Pakistan, but there are Taliban in Afghanistan who keep launching cross border raids, killing people, burning schools, assassinating officials, and when you tell the Afghan government to stop them and they deny any presence when the whole world knows it?, wouldn't you eventually have to attack them yourself? Wouldn't you be furious at the Afghan government. This is exactly the situation except the other way around. In Afghanistan, the Taliban hold no towns. Here they run around two entire provinces.

No wonder the Afghans hate us.

All these people moaning about America attacking FATA or Waziristan, well, we've done nothing against them really. What do you expect the Afghans and NATO to eventually do?

And may I point out the Americans lost 400+ troops in 7 years of combat. We lost so many in the last 3 months alone. If they're getting their *** kicked by Taliban, as some here claim, what are we getting done - molested, disfigured and quartered?

Enough of this Muslim brotherly talk. They're not interested, and seriously if Pakistan becomes Taliban, what is the future? Would we have a Sony-like company called Talib?

We should be more worried in the Muslim world about the growing rift between Afghanistan and Pakistan. And furthermore, may I point out the Arab states are the greatest eradicators of Al Qaeda. It could come to the stage when we're viewed with greater suspicion by all the Arab states except the Salafists, and that would be a blow for Muslim unity. Already Pakistani workers are finding it increasingly difficult to go work there. Or around the world for that matter.

Mehsud and his extremist fighters need to be taken out. Stop denying, you are behaving like a traitor!

 

[MrConcerned]

For a journalist, JANA, you don't half understand the value of having a good, neutral, analytical source. In fact, when people asked you about Taliban half a year ago, you denied it completely, saying you've never seen them. So where are they springing out now, from the rear end of cows?

 

[roadrunner]

You're anti Pak bias is obvious you nit.

The usual denier tactic:

1. Deny something like this is happening.
2. Deny it will get worse.
3. Say it's the fault of India.
4. Say it's the fault of USA.
5. Say it's the fault of da jewsssss

Seriously, some of you are not worth the naan you eat. You're supposed to represent the thinking set of Pakistan, and Mehsud has shown more intelligence than most of you.

USA never funded the Arabs in Afghanistan. They funded the Afghans and Pakistani fighters, who were paid by ISI anyway.

"They funded the Afghans and Pakistani fighters, who were paid by ISI anyway." - The US funded Afghan/Pak fighters who were funded by ISI anyway. Genius bit of commentary there What really happened is this. The US funded and supplied the Afghan Mujahideen with money, training, and weapons. The Arabs and Saudis in particular funded the schools that were built on the border. The Afghan Mujahideen became the later Taliban. The very same fighters in many cases.

The problem was when USA left, we continued to meddle in the country, using religious extremists to fight for and control the country because we thought they were the easiest to control. Then of course we used some of them against India.

The US left in 1989 when the Soviets left. Pakistan also left in 1989. Only in 1994 did Pakistan re-enter into the politics of Afghanistan. The reason was because it was too unstable, and this instability was affecting Pakistan along with the trade routes. However the Taliban ideology had been created by Pakistan, the US, and the Saudis..The Taliban ARE the Afghan Mujahideen.

and now that the whole thing is blowing up in our faces, the policymakers continue to try to leverage them as future cards, ignoring the disintegration of the country's borders and with the President too busy setting his troops on civil society.

I personally think Afghanistan would have been better as part of the Soviet Union. Anyhow, your post here sounds extremely dumb, I don't know where to start.

It's always been the fault of Pakistan's policy makers. Look at how they lied about BB's death - what amateurish behavior. Or lied about the 300 soldiers who surrendered to the Taliban. The government lacks integrity.

WMD and Kashmiri lies spring to mind here.

Think of it this way, if there were really no Taliban in Pakistan, but there are Taliban in Afghanistan who keep launching cross border raids, killing people, burning schools, assassinating officials, and when you tell the Afghan government to stop them and they deny any presence when the whole world knows it?, wouldn't you eventually have to attack them yourself? Wouldn't you be furious at the Afghan government. This is exactly the situation except the other way around. In Afghanistan, the Taliban hold no towns. Here they run around two entire provinces.

Good God, you thick dumpling.

1. Taliban do hold several towns in Afghanistan currently. Vast "swathes" of the South are in their control. Musa Qala was in their control for most of last year.
2. The Taliban do not hold any entire province of Pakistan you nit. They hold a small parts of Waziristan, and not even the whole of it
3. The Taliban in Pakistan are not the same as the Taliban in Afghanistan. They are two totally different sets of people. Both sets of people stick to their own territories.

No wonder the Afghans hate us.

Afghan Pashtuns generally have no ill will towards Pakistan. Afghan Tajiks and Uzbeks generally do.

All these people moaning about America attacking FATA or Waziristan, well, we've done nothing against them really.

And may I point out the Americans lost 400+ troops in 7 years of combat. We lost so many in the last 3 months alone. If they're getting their *** kicked by Taliban, as some here claim, what are we getting done - molested, disfigured and quartered?

Enough of this Muslim brotherly talk. They're not interested, and seriously if Pakistan becomes Taliban, what is the future? Would we have a Sony-like company called Talib?

You'll need to distinguish between the regular army and the paramiliatry forces first of all genius. Second, when you try and be funny, try and make it witty or at least humerous, not some gourmless comment that induces a jaw-dropping, saliva dribbling, empty glare from the reader.

 

[roadrunner]

For a journalist, JANA, you don't half understand the value of having a good, neutral, analytical source. In fact, when people asked you about Taliban half a year ago, you denied it completely, saying you've never seen them. So where are they springing out now, from the rear end of cows?

Hello MrDipshyt again. The Afghani Taliban are not in Pakistan. The Pakistani Taliban have always been there, and they are, and ALWAYS WERE LOCALS. They are not the same as the Afghani Taliban that are fighting the NATO forces.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Hello MrDipshyt again. The Afghani Taliban are not in Pakistan. The Pakistani Taliban have always been there, and they are, and ALWAYS WERE LOCALS. They are not the same as the Afghani Taliban that are fighting the NATO forces.

Not that Mr Concerned's post offers any solution, but I do agree that there has been posts that brushes issues under the carpet along with the reality. There are posts that deny the presence of AQ and Taleban in areas of Pakistan. It is of late there has been grudging recognition that Taleban exist and are operating in Pakistan.

What is the difference about Taleban in Pakistan and Taleban in Afghanistan?

On what basis do you claim that Talebans of Afghanistan origin are not operating in Pakistan or Taleban of Pakistan origin are not operating in Afghanistan? This is just the type of statement that leads to people like Mr Concerned questioning the rationale.

Are you stating that the 1000 who attacked the Fort in South Waziristan are all Pakistani Taleban? If so, it means there is a real anti Pakistan ground swell there that they could muster such a huge number. And that they have grown in confidence wherein they are no longer doing the sporadic acts of violence and instead audaciously taking on military and para military entrenchments with force levels as never before!

I don't think that all those who attacked are local Pakistanis.

As I understand they, in both the country, are people who have a common ideology and purpose and since Taleban means 'student', they are product of the madrassas or influences of similar nature.

And they are anti govt and out to do no good and should be identified and smashed since they are against the norms of institutionalised governance.

It would be better to have facts speak for themselves rather than categorical denials, wherein inviting posts of the genre of Mr Concerned!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mehsud-Wazir tension grows after power cut​

* Army may allow Wazirs to travel by alternative route

By Iqbal Khattak

PESHAWAR: Tension between the Mehsud and Ahmedzai Wazir tribes is growing in South Waziristan after power supply to Wana was apparently disconnected by the Mehsuds, tribal sources said on Wednesday.

“There has been no electricity in Wana and its surrounding areas for the last 15 days because the power line goes through the Mehsud areas and the Mehsuds have (allegedly) cut it off,” they told Daily Times.

Mistrust between the two groups has risen to such a level that the Ahmedzai Wazirs have stopped travelling through the Mehsud areas for fears of being captured or killed.

“We have finally convinced the military authorities to allow an alternative route for Wazir tribes, bypassing the route passing through the Mehsud areas,” the sources said via phone from Wana.

The alternative route is Gomal Zam Road, which the Wazirs were not allowed to use in the past, apparently at the insistence of Mehsud tribes.

As hostility between the government and Baitullah Mehsud continues to rise, the opening of Gomal Zam Road will give the Ahmedzai Wazirs freedom from the dominance of the Mehsuds, who share 75 percent of the resources being given to South Waziristan through development funds and other projects.

“No Wazir can take the risk of travelling through the Mehsud areas as tension between the two tribes is at an all-time high. The Wana-Tank highway [that passes through the Mehsud areas] is very unsafe for the Wazirs,” the sources said.

While the government forces are enforcing a complete economic blockade for Mehsud tribes in South Waziristan and also carrying out an operation against the tribe in Tank district, they are allowing the Ahmedzai Wazirs to transport truckloads of goods, wheat and flour destined for them [Wazirs] through the blockade.

Baitullah Mehsud was allegedly the prime suspect in two simultaneous attacks on peace committee offices – one each in Wana and Shakai Valley – in which nine supporters of Taliban leader Maulvi Nazir were gunned down on January 7.

An Ahmedzai Wazir jirga has raised a 600-strong lashkar (a tribal army) to protect what they call peace in the Wazir areas. According to a source, the government will bear all expenses of the lashkar.

Maulvi Nazir led a successful drive in April last year against foreign militants, especially the Uzbeks, who either took shelter in North Waziristan or in the Mehsud areas in South Waziristan.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

And here is a link to the background events to the opening of the Gomal Zam Road.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...es/8576-gop-bifurcating-south-waziristan.html

 

[roadrunner]

There are posts that deny the presence of AQ and Taleban in areas of Pakistan.

Al Q does exist in Pakistan, India, Germany, Sudan, basically everywhere in the world. But for sure Al Q does exist in Pakistan. I certainly have not said anything to the contrary. They need to be eliminated from there. The Taliban does not exist in Pakistan, at least not the same Taliban as the Afghani Taliban. The Pakistani Taliban are locals, nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban. There is a problem with the cross-over of people, because refugees that are Afghani nationals are being hired to fight for the Afghani Taliban. This isn't to deny that there are no Pakistani nationals fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan, but the backbone of the forces fighting NATO in Afghanistan are Afghani Pashtuns, nothing to do with Pakistan. This is where his post (and clearly your ability to read what he's suggesting) is at fault. The insurgency in Afghanistan is a purely Afghani thing on the whole. It has nothing to do with Pakistan. The Pakistani insurgency is due to the Pakistan armed forces going after Al Qaeda on its territory, nothing to do with the Afghani insurgency.

It is of late there has been grudging recognition that Taleban exist and are operating in Pakistan.

No Afghani Taliban exist in Pakistan.

What is the difference about Taleban in Pakistan and Taleban in Afghanistan?

Afghani Taliban are Afghani locals, Pakistani Taliban are Pakistani locals, they do not move out of their territories generally. Pakistani Taliban have adopted the "Taliban" name as a means of achieving fame, but they have nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban, since they generally do not move from their terriotories.

On what basis do you claim that Talebans of Afghanistan origin are not operating in Pakistan or Taleban of Pakistan origin are not operating in Afghanistan? This is just the type of statement that leads to people like Mr Concerned questioning the rationale.

Because these people cannot move whole armies across the border and shuffle them back at will. The Mehsud tribe is resident in Waziristan, they will never move from thir area and cede territory to the Waziris. There's many other reasons.

Are you stating that the 1000 who attacked the Fort in South Waziristan are all Pakistani Taleban? If so, it means there is a real anti Pakistan ground swell there that they could muster such a huge number. And that they have grown in confidence wherein they are no longer doing the sporadic acts of violence and instead audaciously taking on military and para military entrenchments with force levels as never before!

It's TRIBAL POLITICS. Mehsud tribe has thousands of members. They could easily muster 1,000 (which is an over-inflated figure anyway). That was the Pakistani Taliban in action perhaps.

I don't think that all those who attacked are local Pakistanis.

As I understand they, in both the country, are people who have a common ideology and purpose and since Taleban means 'student', they are product of the madrassas or influences of similar nature.

Whatever. You obviously can't think logically..or at least the same sort of logic I think as logical.

And they are anti govt and out to do no good and should be identified and smashed since they are against the norms of institutionalised governance.

They always have been, as have the Waziris.

It would be better to have facts speak for themselves rather than categorical denials, wherein inviting posts of the genre of Mr Concerned!

Your post seems to be full of much the same ignorance as your friend's post. But this is nothing new when it comes to the FATA situation.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

An amazingly poor response by the pakistani millitary---how can this attack continue for so long and no air support. Where were the night fighting gun ship helicopters---where was the air support.

Seemingly, pakistani army is proving to be led by more incompetent people than could be envisaged by an observer. One failure after the other on the millitary front---it is too much of a coincidence. There is more to the story than is coming out---but the news that is coming out in the media world over---is putting pakistani millitary leadership to shame.

 

[mujahideen]

Hi,

An amazingly poor response by the pakistani millitary---how can this attack continue for so long and no air support. Where were the night fighting gun ship helicopters---where was the air support.

Seemingly, pakistani army is proving to be led by more incompetent people than could be envisaged by an observer. One failure after the other on the millitary front---it is too much of a coincidence. There is more to the story than is coming out---but the news that is coming out in the media world over---is putting pakistani millitary leadership to shame.

Oh, by the way---that article by the so called Seymour---I don't think it is the real Mccoy.

First of all please refrain from calling mine and your military personnel "incompetent." These people are more brave then you and I can ever be. If their is a war they are the first people to get shot, why, to keep our homes safe. Second the main point you are missing is that it is not the Army fighting these terrorists but the F.C. The F.C. is a paramilitary force and doesn't hve the same training and equipment as the Army. The F.C. is led by high ranking military officers, but then again one can give orders, but it is up to the ordinary soldier to carry out this order. Now these F.C. personnel are the locals of the NWFP and Baluchistan. In my opinion this is a factor of failure because these people dont want to kill their own people. Now as far as the Army is concerned, we saw then in action in Swat. We saw how they cleared the place. Another reason and this is just my thinking is that the Army knows what fighting its own people can lead to. The Army still hasn't forgotten the East Pakistan situation and in my opinion this is why the Army is bent on talking to these guys.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

#1 Al Q does exist in Pakistan, India, Germany, Sudan, basically everywhere in the world. But for sure Al Q does exist in Pakistan. I certainly have not said anything to the contrary. They need to be eliminated from there. The Taliban does not exist in Pakistan, at least not the same Taliban as the Afghani Taliban. The Pakistani Taliban are locals, nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban. There is a problem with the cross-over of people, because refugees that are Afghani nationals are being hired to fight for the Afghani Taliban. This isn't to deny that there are no Pakistani nationals fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan, but the backbone of the forces fighting NATO in Afghanistan are Afghani Pashtuns, nothing to do with Pakistan. This is where his post (and clearly your ability to read what he's suggesting) is at fault. The insurgency in Afghanistan is a purely Afghani thing on the whole. It has nothing to do with Pakistan. The Pakistani insurgency is due to the Pakistan armed forces going after Al Qaeda on its territory, nothing to do with the Afghani insurgency.

A most convoluted reply missing the woods for the trees.

#2The Taliban does not exist in Pakistan, at least not the same Taliban as the Afghani Taliban.

What is it supposed to me. They exist and yet don't exist and that too not in the Pakistani form! A escapist romanticism, at best! Why is it that everything not in consonance with indicating all is well and under control, requires some sort of a blanket of obfuscation?

This is the type of 'justification'' that feed fat to posts like Mr Concerned.

# 3No Afghani Taliban exist in Pakistan.

Then what is it that you mean by:

The Taliban does not exist in Pakistan, at least not the same Taliban as the Afghani Taliban.

Now make up your mind as to what is it that you want to say.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Can you?

#4 Afghani Taliban are Afghani locals, Pakistani Taliban are Pakistani locals, they do not move out of their territories generally. Pakistani Taliban have adopted the "Taliban" name as a means of achieving fame, but they have nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban, since they generally do not move from their terriotories.

If that be right, then why the posts on Swat and elsewhere claimed that the horrors were by Afghanis, Uzebk and the like?

There are, as per you, only locals under the guise of Taliban and yet the posts, when convenient, flip flop as per the requirement to blame everyone but themselves and then you come in saying that there is no Pakistani Taliban and then show that there are! Check #2 and #3 and even #4.

Because these people cannot move whole armies across the border and shuffle them back at will. The Mehsud tribe is resident in Waziristan, they will never move from thir area and cede territory to the Waziris. There's many other reasons.

Your attempt to obfuscate does not cease!

It's TRIBAL POLITICS. Mehsud tribe has thousands of members. They could easily muster 1,000 (which is an over-inflated figure anyway). That was the Pakistani Taliban in action perhaps.

So now it is over inflated!

why did you not mention so earlier in that thread?

Wasn't convenient then, right?

Whatever. You obviously can't think logically..or at least the same sort of logic I think as logical.

Indeed, your logic is very difficult to logically understand as I have indicated above.

They always have been, as have the Waziris.

A good one.

Your post seems to be full of much the same ignorance as your friend's post. But this is nothing new when it comes to the FATA situation.

Your logical posts sure is not helping.


To be frank, it does not matter what name or nationality these terrorists are. All I wnat to know what is the real situation and how they can be stopped.

Therefore, there is nothing to be defensive about or embarrassed about. Scoundrels have no nationality.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mujahideen,

Please keep the emotion out of the discussion---you cannot win a war with yesterday's performances. The DAWN newspaper reports the attack went on for 6 hrs.

For the sake of argument forget about 6 hrs---there were 50 troops stationed in that place ver well armed---they put up a very strong defence against 500 to 700 insurgents who were also armed very well---the troops immediately asked for ground and air support---ground support in the form of artillery---air support from attack helicopters and air craft---accordingly no aircarft showed up at that time till the base was run over by the overwhelming number of insurgents---they had time to slaughter the soldiers, collect all the weapons and take off---.

It was a battle zone---pakistan millitary was and is at battle station ready---it should have taken no more than 30 to 45 minutes from the time the first call went out for the attack helicopters to provide the support to the ground troops at that fort.

We brag about how good our millitary is---we want to smash the face of any intruder that will infringe upon our soil and still hours after the attack---they are a no show.

Please read my previous post again before you get all fired up.

 

[mujahideen]

Mujahideen,

Please keep the emotion out of the discussion---you cannot win a war with yesterday's performances. The DAWN newspaper reports the attack went on for 6 hrs.

For the sake of argument forget about 6 hrs---there were 50 troops stationed in that place ver well armed---they put up a very strong defence against 500 to 700 insurgents who were also armed very well---the troops immediately asked for ground and air support---ground support in the form of artillery---air support from attack helicopters and air craft---accordingly no aircarft showed up at that time till the base was run over by the overwhelming number of insurgents---they had time to slaughter the soldiers, collect all the weapons and take off---.

It was a battle zone---pakistan millitary was and is at battle station ready---it should have taken no more than 30 to 45 minutes from the time the first call went out for the attack helicopters to provide the support to the ground troops at that fort.

We brag about how good our millitary is---we want to smash the face of any intruder that will infringe upon our soil and still hours after the attack---they are a no show.

Please read my previous post again before you get all fired up.

Well I really cant help it but to get fired up and emotional. You have made good points, but we really dont know the realities. If they called for support and it didn't arrive their must be a reason, I am sure they just wouldn't allow the enemy to take over. But let me assure you these elements will be dealt accordingly. Now I have a feeling you are seeing everything with a negative eye. I know that things aren't all that positive but still we must learn to be positive. Think of it this way their are nations who are worse off then we are. But we are including myself very thankless people.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I think Mastasn Khan has a point.

Being optimistic and being pragmatic are two different kettle of fish.

One is call of the heart and the other is the call of the mind.

Obviously, the heart is not what can deliver the result, even though it is a powerful motivator.

One has been seeing here that these elements will be eliminated etc. Of course, they will be. But unless one sees the reality and matches it with the action, rather than only hoping, will the solution come.

And that is what I think Mastan is stating.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Ironical Thought!

People who only think from the mind usually do nothing other then Criticising everything since normally everything is negative these days...